Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

Too bad this episode even further proves what I stated to be correct. I mean Kaioken only affecting base goku's power and adding it to ssb and champa and beerus not being far from it.

? No it doesn't, in fact it's already been disproved last ep. Hit outright says Goku's power is multiplying by x3, x4 and finally x10. He clearly means overall power.

Second, Base Goku's power can be sensed and SSB Goku's power cannot be sensed by most people. Therefore, SSB Goku does not have any base power at all. If he had base power in SSB form, Krillin etc. would have been able to sense it.

Hit outright saying Goku's power is multiplying means nothing as nothing was mentioned goku's ki stopped to be sensable. Also there is no hint hit can sense divine's ki.

Ssb goku still has base power aka it may be filled with divine ki but it is only that strong. Kaioken would only multiply that weak level of divine ki adding to overall ssb power.

Nothing contradicts it either. Ssb would simply converts even his base power to divine ki so it wouldn't be sensable. Yes, it does as far as I am concerned

Also beerus fanboys who can not swallow being wrong or even considering goku or any other character coming close to beerus or champa(almost equal). Too bad this episode even further proves what I stated to be correct. I mean Kaioken only affecting base goku's power and adding it to ssb and champa and beerus not being far from it.

You're wrong. Maybe you saw some bad subs?

Spoiler:

Episode 39

Context: Goku explains what he's about to do.

　14:57 | Goku: "We can't end it here. You deserve better than this. It ain't like I was bein' a jerk and holdin' out on ya on purpose, but... I'm still tinkerin' with it. I figured I'd take my time polishin' it, then use it against Beerus-sama someday, y'see. This technique's still not finished. There probably ain't even a one-in-ten chance of it workin'. If I mess this up, it'll wreck my whole body... for starters!"

　17:18 | Goku: "I've added the Kaiō-ken to Super Saiyan Blue's power!"
　18:02 | Beerus: "He was planning to use that against me?!"
　18:06 | Whis: "Oh? A bit worried, are you?"
　18:11 | Beerus: "As if!"
　18:13 | Whis: "Oh? Then what were you thinking?"
　18:16 | Beerus: "Just that if he had such a convenient move, he shouldn't be so reluctant to use it!"
　18:21 | Vegeta: "He's only saying that because he doesn't know the Kaiō-ken. The Kaiō-ken may enhance your fighting abilities, but in exchange, it burns through your stamina like nothing else!
　18:21 | Elder Kaiōshin: And Super Saiyan on its own already forces the body far past its limits, so using that technique on top of Super Saiyan is practically suicide! I'm sure that's why he's kept the Kaiō-ken off limits for so long."
　19:13 | Goku: "I thought maybe I could pull it off..."
　19:17 | Goku: "...as the strong and calm Super Saiyan Blue, which gives me perfect ki control!"

Significance: In case there was any question, Goku's 10x Kaiō-ken is a multiplication of Super Saiyan Blue's power. Beerus seems worried, but denies it when questioned by Whis. This is before Goku's power multiplies tenfold. Vegeta reminds the audience of the Kaiō-ken's major flaw, while Goku refers to SSB as strong & calm with "perfect ki control".

see my comment above

[Chiki]

Hit outright saying Goku's power is multiplying means nothing as nothing was mentioned goku's ki stopped to be sensable. Also there is no hint hit can sense divine's ki.

Ssb goku still has base power aka it may be filled with divine ki but it is only that strong. Kaioken would only multiply that weak level of divine ki adding to overall ssb power.

Nothing contradicts it either. Ssb would simply converts even his base power to divine ki so it wouldn't be sensable. Yes, it does as far as I am concerned

It was mentioned during the RoF arc that SSB Goku's ki can't be sensed by Krillin and co. Hit can sense SSB Goku's ki because he is god-level.

Look, SSB's power is already divine ki. Divine ki + base power converted to divine ki = more divine ki. Why does Kaioken multiply the divine ki that is converted from base power and not all of his divine ki? If he's multiplying divine ki why should he make an arbitrary distinction by multiplying one kind of divine ki and not the other?

[LowRyder2005]

Chiki is right. Normal people can sense Beyond God Goku, but Super Saiyan Blue can't be sensed at all, so there is no normal ki to "multiply" throughout Kaioken already. At least in theory.
Moreover, Freeza is able to sense Goku's power (somehow), so it appears that divine ki can be in fact sensed by people who are in a realm of power comparable to that of the gods.

[ssbgoku]

It was mentioned during the RoF arc that SSB Goku's ki can't be sensed by Krillin and co. Hit can sense SSB Goku's ki because he is god-level.

Look, SSB's power is already divine ki. Divine ki + base power converted to divine ki = more divine ki. Why does Kaioken multiply the divine ki that is converted from base power and not all of his divine ki? If he's multiplying divine ki why should he make an arbitrary distinction by multiplying one kind of divine ki and not the other?

Correct about First statement, About second paragraph there is at least few to point that ;p.
1) Kaioken aura isn't blending with ssb power fully which means it is not multiplying ssb's power and this could be due to few reasons:

- technique is incomplete that why only goku can multiply his convereted divine ki of base
- Kaioken just can not be used to multiply another transformation just multiplying your untransformed state and adding to overall transformation

2) Toei also used kaioken with pikkon in other word tournament and if going by your theory it would be correct. Goku would get at least two times as powerfull which should one shot pikkon. I know this was filler.
3) Vegeta didn't say ssj and kaioken was impossible due to kaioken multyplying ssj power being too much but instead he mentioned it as adding extra strain of using kaioken at top of ssj would be overkill and elder kaioshin confirmed it.

Chiki is right. Normal people can sense Beyond God Goku, but Super Saiyan Blue can't be sensed at all, so there is no normal ki to "multiply" throughout Kaioken already. At least in theory.
Moreover, Freeza is able to sense Goku's power (somehow), so it appears that divine ki can be in fact sensed by people who are in a realm of power comparable to that of the gods.

Of course it could be that case. However divine ki your base level would definietly work especially because 10 times kaioken goku would be overkill. Unless the numbers given to us by Akira were only tier something to grasp on when you try to deduce power level of character then kaioken can only affect base level divine ki. Like:

base goku - base not divine ki
ssb goku - base divine ki multiplied by ssb's transformation
kaioken ssb's goku - base divine ki multiplied by ssb's transformation added to base divine ki multiplied by kaioken.

[LowRyder2005]

The numbers gave by Toriyama were made up on the spot for an interview, though; while he is the "voice of God" in the franchise, it's not like Toriyama is unfallible. He may simple change opinions from time to time. Not even counting the fact that the anime is a "group effort" with multiple writers, of course.
He simply said that "at the time he had to write the Battle of Gods movie" - stress on this part - "he had envisioned the ratios as 6 : 10 : 15".

Honestly, taking them as a general guideline has been fine thus far, because, honestly, why not? It slightly simplified things.
But trying to make everything fit now when, instead, it overcomplicates everything? Sounds a little masochistic to me.

I think they should simply be disregarded, and it'll probably be what happens six or ten months from now.

[GodVegetto91]

So Champa>Hit!? Is that what this episode implies?
Haven't watched it with subs yet. But if that's true then
Beerus>Champa>Hit>=10xKK SSJB Goku.
Sounds right?

[apex_pretador]

So Champa>Hit!? Is that what this episode implies?
Haven't watched it with subs yet. But if that's true then
Beerus>Champa>Hit>=10xKK SSJB Goku.
Sounds right?

Hit is significantly weaker than KK x10 goku.
He dodged the KHH by timeskip, and only landed blows with an improved timeskip.
Even after tired heavily, goku nearly brought him down with 2-3 hits

[LowRyder2005]

So, in light of the "Beerus was always at 10%" argument I watched again the part of Raging Vegeta vs. Beerus... Beerus stresses that Vegeta is way too weak to even be potentially considered a Super Saiyan God, so Vegeta and Super Saiyan God Goku can't really be compared.

I came up with this (convoluted) idea that, nevertheless, may put some of you at peace: what if Beerus was referencing the 10% of his "suppressed state" against Vegeta, and 100% of his suppressed state vs. Goku? Something like this:

Beerus = 100%
Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken: 80% of Beerus
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (post-training): 8% of Beerus' total power
Beerus (100% of his suppressed State) = 10%
Super Saiyan God Goku = 6% of Beerus' total power

Beerus (10% of his suppressed state) = 1% -> fingerflicks Vegeta
SS2 Vegeta (enraged) = 0.75% of Beerus' total power
Beerus (vs. Goku) = 0.50%
Goku SS3 = 0.10% of Beerus' total power

You'd still have Whis referencing that Goku and Vegeta going at Beerus together may be able to defeat him. I remember some people thinking of Goku and Vegeta fusing together as SSB and taking on Beerus. I think I will go with that notion from now on.

tl;dr -> Perhaps ironically so, since it had started as a mistranslation, I think I'll go with the idea that Beerus was at 1% of his total power vs. Vegeta from now on.

------------ Realm of Gods ------------
Whis/ Vados: Much higher
Beerus: 125,000
Champa: 118,000
Goku SS Blue + Kaioken * 10: 100,000
Beerus (100% of suppressed state = 10%): 12,500
Golden Freeza: 12,000
Goku/ Vegeta SS Blue: 9,000 (ROF) - 10,000 (Tournament)
Goku (SSG): 7,500
Beerus (BOG; Goku's estimation against Vegito): 6,000
SS3 Vegito (BOG; Goku's estimation against Beerus): 5,000
Beerus (vs. Raging Vegeta; says "near to 10%", retconned to be about 1% of his total): 1,000

------------ Mid to High Z-tier ------------
SS Vegito (Buu Arc): 600
Super Buu-Gohan (Buu Arc): 320
Beerus (BOG; vs. SS3 Goku): 200 (note: 0.16% of Beerus' total)
SS2 Vegeta + Galick Gun (BOG; angry): 188 (note: 0.15% of Beerus, he tanks him by shooting up to 0.8%)
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; full power): 100 (note: used by Vegeta to defeat Magetta, who just happens to be impervious to damage)
SS2 Vegeta (BOG; angry): 70
Base Goku/ Vegeta (post-training/ powered-up): 65 (note: this is the base Goku that fights Fourth Form Freeza)
Final Form Freeza: 55
BOG's SS3 Goku (pre-training): 50
SS Cabba: 30

------------ Low to mid Z-tier ------------
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; vs. Frost, Magetta and Cabba): 10
Magetta: 9
SS Gotenks: 5.5
Final Form Frost: 5
Mr. Buu: 4
Assault Form Frost: 3.5
First Form Freeza (ROF): 3
Goku/ Vegeta (Base/ post-training): 2
***** Piccolo's Makankosappo: 2
Final Form Frost (weakened/ tired): 1.5
SS Gohan: 1
Ginyu (Tagoma's body): 0.72
Cabba: 0.6
Tagoma: 0.5
Piccolo (all sagas, minor variations): 0.28
First Form Frost: 0.22
BOG's Goku (Base/ pre-training): 0.125
Botamo: 0.075

[Bullza]

exactly, piccolo , by using arm stretch, put frost on defence, and forced him to use needle.

I just saw it as Frost was getting tired out from attacking and dodging and decided he had to cheat before he was anymore worn out.

[ssbgoku]

So, in light of the "Beerus was always at 10%" argument I watched again the part of Raging Vegeta vs. Beerus... Beerus stresses that Vegeta is way too weak to even be potentially considered a Super Saiyan God, so Vegeta and Super Saiyan God Goku can't really be compared.

I came up with this (convoluted) idea that, nevertheless, may put some of you at peace: what if Beerus was referencing the 10% of his "suppressed state" against Vegeta, and 100% of his suppressed state vs. Goku? Something like this:

Beerus = 100%
Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken: 80% of Beerus
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (post-training): 8% of Beerus' total power
Beerus (100% of his suppressed State) = 10%
Super Saiyan God Goku = 6% of Beerus' total power

Beerus (10% of his suppressed state) = 1% -> fingerflicks Vegeta
SS2 Vegeta (enraged) = 0.75% of Beerus' total power
Beerus (vs. Goku) = 0.50%
Goku SS3 = 0.10% of Beerus' total power

You'd still have Whis referencing that Goku and Vegeta going at Beerus together may be able to defeat him. I remember some people thinking of Goku and Vegeta fusing together as SSB and taking on Beerus. I think I will go with that notion from now on.

tl;dr -> Perhaps ironically so, since it had started as a mistranslation, I think I'll go with the idea that Beerus was at 1% of his total power vs. Vegeta from now on.

Not bad, but until I see Kaioken affecting transformation overall power I stick to Kaioken only multiply untransfromed state not matter what ki is used. It just can not blend with other transformation instead can only be added to it.

[Chiki]

Kaioken aura isn't blending with ssb power fully which means it is not multiplying ssb's power

But Hit says x3.. x4.. x10 meaning that it was multiplying his SSB power.

Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken: 80% of Beerus
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (post-training): 8% of Beerus' total power

So Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken x2: 16% Beerus

Why would Beerus be scared of someone who is 16% his power?

[LowRyder2005]

Kaioken aura isn't blending with ssb power fully which means it is not multiplying ssb's power

But Hit says x3.. x4.. x10 meaning that it was multiplying his SSB power.

Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken: 80% of Beerus
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (post-training): 8% of Beerus' total power

So Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken x2: 16% Beerus

Why would Beerus be scared of someone who is 16% his power?

Is he? I admit I haven't rewatched the subbed episode entirely, but it looked to me like Whis was suggesting that even the SS Blue Goku + Kaioken * 10 couldn't really have the upper hand on Beerus.

Maybe he was just concerned with Goku's power rising in the first place through unknown means. It may have been more of a "uh, what's happening, is he getting stronger?" or "if he keeps raising his power like that he may end up being stronger than me" kind of feeling.

[Chiki]

Kaioken aura isn't blending with ssb power fully which means it is not multiplying ssb's power

But Hit says x3.. x4.. x10 meaning that it was multiplying his SSB power.

Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken: 80% of Beerus
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (post-training): 8% of Beerus' total power

So Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken x2: 16% Beerus

Why would Beerus be scared of someone who is 16% his power?

Is he? I admit I haven't rewatched the subbed episode entirely, but it looked to me like Whis was suggesting that even the SS Blue Goku + Kaioken * 10 couldn't really have the upper hand on Beerus.

Maybe he was just concerned with Goku's power rising in the first place through unknown means. It may have been more of a "uh, what's happening, is he getting stronger?" or "if he keeps raising his power like that he may end up being stronger than me" kind of feeling.

He didn't know at the time that Goku had Kaioken x3, x4, and finally x10. He thought Kaioken x2 was the limit of his power, so yeah. It's like Second Form Frieza being scared of Krillin lol.

Here's my tier list of the gods in terms of power level:

Zeno's Attendants (unknown)
Monaka
?SSBx10 Goku (idk about this)
Vados
Whis
?SSBx10 Goku
SSBx2 Goku
Beerus
Champa
SSB Goku
SSB Vegeta
Hit

In terms of who would win in a fight:

Zeno's Attendants (unknown)
Monaka
Vados
Whis
Hit
Beerus
Champa
SSBx10 Goku
SSBx2 Goku
SSB Goku
SSB Vegeta

[apex_pretador]

exactly, piccolo , by using arm stretch, put frost on defence, and forced him to use needle.

I just saw it as Frost was getting tired out from attacking and dodging and decided he had to cheat before he was anymore worn out.

why didn't he just grab his arm and throw him out? To me, it looked like they are fairly close in manga. Atleast piccolo was running away in anime most of the time, and had to rely on dodging and blocking

[ssbgoku]

Kaioken aura isn't blending with ssb power fully which means it is not multiplying ssb's power

But Hit says x3.. x4.. x10 meaning that it was multiplying his SSB power.

Could be error, or just blind empty hype for us to get excited. I see no reason for ssb's power to be possible multiplied, it just doesn;t make sense and kaioken aura not blending and even further goku's comment about incomplete technique further make him certain my claim.

Not even mentioning kaioken was never mentioned to multiply transformation's power as base. If it was then even as fpssj goku he would take a risk as he would be on par with fp perfect cell or as ssj2 with kaioken x4 he would gives fat buu big trouble. I just guess kaioken would only mulitiply base level of power and add it to tranfromation's power which wouldn't be enough to take a risk.

Zeno's Attendants (unknown)
Monaka
?SSBx10 Goku (idk about this)
Vados
Whis
?SSBx10 Goku
SSBx2 Goku
Beerus
Champa
SSB Goku
SSB Vegeta
Hit

In terms of who would win in a fight:

Zeno's Attendants (unknown)
Monaka
Vados
Whis
Hit
Beerus
Champa
SSBx10 Goku
SSBx2 Goku
SSB Goku
SSB Vegeta

bold part are you joking me ?. Monaca was only used as gag character and even did same as mr. satan when fighting android 18. Also ssb goku kaioken is below beerus and champa for sure, but gap is very small. I stick to kaioken only multiplying untransformated state. I dare anyone to prove me wrong.

[LowRyder2005]

He didn't know at the time that Goku had Kaioken x3, x4, and finally x10. He thought Kaioken x2 was the limit of his power, so yeah. It's like Second Form Frieza being scared of Krillin lol.

I think it would be as you say if Beerus knew Goku had access to Kaioken *2 in the first place; Goku turning out stronger would be predictable, so Beerus would have - in fact - no reason to worry.
But the "unexpected event" was Goku having access to a higher power output in the first place, and that may have been what surprised him even if Goku was quite weaker than him.
If you had a plant in your garden and, say, you suddenly had seen it "growing" two times size when it wasn't supposed to grow you'd naturally start worrying about "how much" it can grow in the first place and in the next few seconds or minutes.

That could be Beerus' reaction and feelings in a nutshell: he saw Goku using something he didn't know existed and panicked for a second. "What else does he have up his sleeve that I don't know of"?
That being said, I think Whis' words on the matter are reliable here. His "My, do you think you would be in trouble even if he used that against you?" sounds pretty much like a rhetorical question with a negative answer.

I guess it's either that or having Hit (who is still able to put up a decent fight) and Goku about, maybe, five or six times stronger than Beerus. I don't really see it as being the case. They should probably be a menace with Kaioken, but Champa is still superior to both.

[Chiki]

Could be error, or just blind empty hype for us to get excited. I see no reason for ssb's power to be possible multiplied, it just doesn;t make sense and kaioken aura not blending and even further goku's comment about incomplete technique further make him certain my claim.

Not even mentioning kaioken was never mentioned to multiply transformation's power as base. If it was then even as fpssj goku he would take a risk as he would be on par with fp perfect cell or as ssj2 with kaioken x4 he would gives fat buu big trouble. I just guess kaioken would only mulitiply base level of power and add it to tranfromation's power which wouldn't be enough to take a risk.

Why doesn't it make sense?

FPSS Goku wouldn't take the risk because it was suicide. FPSS didn't have perfect ki control.

bold part are you joking me ?. Monaca was only used as gag character and even did same as mr. satan when fighting android 18. Also ssb goku kaioken is below beerus and champa for sure, but gap is very small. I stick to kaioken only multiplying untransformated state. I dare anyone to prove me wrong.

Monaka is so strong that attacking his vitals have no effect because his body is extremely strong. We didn't see it, but during the fight, Hit tried to attack Monaka during Tokitobashi and it didn't work at all. Hit hit Monaka's vitals each like 100 times and nothing happened. We didn't even see it because there was no effect. Then when Monaka punched him, the punch was so strong that it destroyed Hit's internal organs and made him bleed inside. That's why it took like 10 seconds for Hit to fly away from the force of the punch.

I already proved you wrong. Sorry, but if you're going to be stubborn for no reason then I'm not going to reply to you anymore.

[ssbgoku]

Could be error, or just blind empty hype for us to get excited. I see no reason for ssb's power to be possible multiplied, it just doesn;t make sense and kaioken aura not blending and even further goku's comment about incomplete technique further make him certain my claim.

Not even mentioning kaioken was never mentioned to multiply transformation's power as base. If it was then even as fpssj goku he would take a risk as he would be on par with fp perfect cell or as ssj2 with kaioken x4 he would gives fat buu big trouble. I just guess kaioken would only mulitiply base level of power and add it to tranfromation's power which wouldn't be enough to take a risk.

Why doesn't it make sense?

FPSS Goku wouldn't take the risk because it was suicide. FPSS didn't have perfect ki control.

bold part are you joking me ?. Monaca was only used as gag character and even did same as mr. satan when fighting android 18. Also ssb goku kaioken is below beerus and champa for sure, but gap is very small. I stick to kaioken only multiplying untransformated state. I dare anyone to prove me wrong.

Monaka is so strong that attacking his vitals have no effect because his body is extremely strong. We didn't see it, but during the fight, Hit tried to attack Monaka during Tokitobashi and it didn't work at all. Hit hit Monaka's vitals each like 100 times and nothing happened. We didn't even see it because there was no effect. Then when Monaka punched him, the punch was so strong that it destroyed Hit's internal organs and made him bleed inside. That's why it took like 10 seconds for Hit to fly away from the force of the punch.

I already proved you wrong. Sorry, but if you're going to be stubborn for no reason then I'm not going to reply to you anymore.

No you didn't. Point me at least one place where you proved me wrong so I couldn't counter you. I guess you like jokes.

yet fpss was said to be calma nd almost perfect ki control as we saw goku and gohan being totally on easy with it. I repeat myself if kaioken was multiping transformed state then certainly goku would try it and risk even life. However due to only small boost(multiplied his untransfromed state) it wouldn't be worth a risk.

[Chiki]

No you didn't. Point me at least one place where you proved me wrong so I couldn't counter you. I guess you like jokes.

yet fpss was said to be calma nd almost perfect ki control as we saw goku and gohan being totally on easy with it. I repeat myself if kaioken was multiping transformed state then certainly goku would try it and risk even life. However due to only small boost(multiplied his untransfromed state) it wouldn't be worth a risk.

It's not a joke when I say that your argument was disproven.

1. Hit says SSB Goku's overall power was multiplying and not just his "base" power
2. Goku's base power can be sensed, SSB Goku's ki can't be sensed by Krillin and co., therefore SSB Goku doesn't have any base power to multiply to begin with
3. If SSB Goku's base power is turned into divine ki, then why doesn't the rest of his divine ki (the source of his SSB power) also get multiplied by Kaioken? You give no reason whatsoever for this.

I'm not replying to your posts again I'm afraid.

[ssbgoku]

It's not a joke when I say that your argument was disproven.

1. Hit says SSB Goku's overall power was multiplying and not just his "base" power
2. Goku's base power can be sensed, SSB Goku's ki can't be sensed by Krillin and co., therefore SSB Goku doesn't have any base power to multiply to begin with
3. If SSB Goku's base power is turned into divine ki, then why doesn't the rest of his divine ki (the source of his SSB power) also get multiplied by Kaioken? You give no reason whatsoever for this.

I'm not replying to your posts again I'm afraid.

Joke argument was only about your monaca's comment and hype.

1. Yes, he did and these lines holds no weight yet, as Kaioken was never said to mutitply transformed state of character
2. Yes but no ssb goku's still has divine ki on base level which is muliplied by transformation, that how it works. Same with not divine ki.
3. Because either goku's technique is still incomplete or just because it would be too much for goku to surivive. Also read number 1 once again.

Sure, if you run out of counters.