"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Ki Breaker]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that roshi was picked over trunks/goten. I used to think it was because goten/trunks were stronger that they should be in the ToP. But now seeing as to how roshi is slightly stronger than gotenks, with the addition of battle experience and more developed techniques, he's a no brainer.

No, Roshi isn't anywhere near Tien let alone Gotenks and that's what the story clearly wants to portray..
Taking into account filler ( and that's exactly what I will call it ) mostly screws with power way too much, it's best to ignore those aspects or not take them too seriously..

[SirTorra]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that roshi was picked over trunks/goten. I used to think it was because goten/trunks were stronger that they should be in the ToP. But now seeing as to how roshi is slightly stronger than gotenks, with the addition of battle experience and more developed techniques, he's a no brainer.

No, Roshi isn't anywhere near Tien let alone Gotenks and that's what the story clearly wants to portray..
Taking into account filler ( and that's exactly what I will call it ) mostly screws with power way too much, it's best to ignore those aspects or not take them too seriously..

It doesn't matter if you call it filler. The point is that mini arc is still 100% part of supers story. It happened whether we like it or not (i hate it btw). Also roshi is stronger than tien.

[alakazam^]

What does it not being a Toriyama arc have anything to do with it? It's still part of Super whether you like it or not. Also where does it say it amplified power?

It not being from Toriyama makes it not having any bearing in the overall stories of Super so it shouldn't be used to discuss plot points.

Comméson amplifies its power by absorbing other peoples', it's said in episode 45.

No the idea that the "superhuman water" amplified strength was just a rumor. It made perfect copies and took the abilities of whatever it absorbed.

It was a rumor because it looked like the user got stronger when it was just a stronger Comméson absorbing more power.

[Rubens]

About the copy Vegeta discussion, I think the point in that arc was that "purple" Vegeta was an exact copy which implies that it has exactly the same power, same techniques and the same mind; so no, it doesn't amplify power.
[spoiler]

Context: Copy-Vegeta appears.

　02:53 | Vegeta: "Who the hell do you think you are?!"
　02:56 | Vegeta: "Transforming into an exact copy of me..."
　02:58 | Copy Vegeta: "I'm not a copy."
　03:00 | Copy Vegeta: "I've taken all of your power. Now, I am Vegeta!"
　03:06 | Copy Vegeta: "You're nothing more than an empty husk!"
　03:11 | Vegeta: "What the hell kind of nonsense are you spouting?"
　03:13 | Vegeta: "You're nothing but an impostor! Drop dead!"
　03:22 | Vegeta: "What?! I can't fire..."
　03:25 | Copy Vegeta: "Is this what you were trying to do? Gallic Gun!"

Significance: Shows that the Superhuman Water is capable of stealing other's power and taking on their appearance. Also shows that the Superhuman Water copies more than just raw power; Copy-Vegeta knows all of Vegeta's techniques.

---

Context: Copy-Vegeta is ordered to absorb the others.

　03:57 | Copy Gryll: "Now, absorb the others' power as well."
　04:01 | Copy Gryll: "How about that kid?"
　04:05 | Copy Vegeta: "Trunks..."

Significance: Copy-Vegeta recognizes Trunks and hesitates to kill him, showing that the Superhuman Water can also copy one's mind, as Potage later explains.

---

Context: Vegeta and the others escape into a cave.

　05:43 | Potage: "What attacked us just now was the Superhuman Water."
　05:45 | Jaco: "What? Superhuman Water?!"
　05:49 | Vegeta: "You know of it?"
　06:08 | Jaco: "I believe it was a miraculous water,"
　06:09 | Jaco: "that will increase your power several hundred times over if you drink it..."
　06:13 | Jaco: "I didn't think it actually existed."
　06:17 | Potage: "This "miraculous water" doesn't exist."
　06:24 | Potage: "The "Superhuman Water" is a name attributed by people from other planets, all on their own."
　06:31 | Potage: "Its true name is "Comméson"."
　06:36 | Potage: "It's a weapon that we, the people of Pot-au-feu, developed to defend ourselves."

Significance: Reveals the Superhuman Water's origin, its original name, and shows that Jaco was aware of its reputation.
The name Comméson (コメソン) presumably comes from the French word consommé (コンソメ), which is a type of soup.
One translation mistakenly claimed that the Superhuman Water boosts one's power "one hundred times", rather than "several hundred times" (何百倍).

---

Context: Potage explains the Superhuman Water's backstory.

　06:47 | Potage: "Long ago, our people, who had no strength of their own, discovered a liquid that absorbed the strength of others, leaving their victim powerless. They used this liquid to defend the planet from invaders. The Comméson's absorption powers were unlimited. It went on absorbing the power of our enemies, then disguised itself as clones of them. But the Comméson had absorbed too much evil power from invaders, and one day, it grew to bear an evil will of its own. It didn't just flawlessly clone others' personality and abilities, it started doing this for one single purpose: In short, it became a lifeform that would only absorb and absorb without end, purely in the pursuit of power. Because it appeared identical to the absorbed victims, only powered up, rumours that it was a miraculous water lured even more invaders here. But the real legend is what's yet to come... If the Comméson's power had continued to increase, then never mind Planet Pot-au-feu... The entire universe might be destroyed! With that in mind, we, the people of Pot-au-feu, sacrificed ourselves to seal the Comméson away. And the sole survivor, which would be me, has spent the last one hundred years plus defending its seal!"

Significance: Reveals that Potage's people had "no strength of their own", and gave their lives to seal away the Superhuman Water, leaving Potage as the only survivor.
Explains why after absorbing someone's power, the Superhuman Water takes on their appearance, explaining copy-Vegeta and copy-Gryll.
Reveals that the Superhuman Water has its evil nature due to all of the evil it's absorbed in the past.
According to Potage, the entire universe may be destroyed should the Superhuman Water be allowed to run wild.
According to Potage, the Superhuman Water can absorb anyone without limitation.

---

Context: In the cave.

　10:07 | Vegeta: "That fake has both my appearance and my abilities. In other words, it's practically the same as if I myself had been taken over by the Superhuman Water. But back then, he hesitated for a second to absorb Trunks. Why?! He should be nothing more than Superhuman Water!"
　10:28 | Potage: "That is the result of our craftsmanship."
　10:32 | Potage: "It has faithfully copied your mind as well!"
　10:38 | Vegeta: "I see. I wouldn't go so far as to absorb other people's power to become stronger, after all."
　10:44 | Potage: "But his heart is under the Superhuman Water's control."
　10:50 | Vegeta: "That thing is me, but he's letting himself be the slave of some monster?!"

Significance: Confirms that the Superhuman Water copied Vegeta's mind in addition to his power. Despite this, the Superhuman Water is still in control. Well, supposedly. As we see later, Vegeta's personality allows Copy-Vegeta to act independently.

---

Context: Still in the cave.

　10:58 | Vegeta: "What happens to those who have their power stolen by the Superhuman Water?"
　11:09 | Vegeta: "They die, right? Even me..."
　11:13 | Potage: "Once your body turns transparent, you'll only have three to five minutes left."
　11:17 | Potage: "I'm guessing that they're already..."
　11:28 | Jaco: "This is not good! I don't care about Gryll, but if Vegeta dies..."
　11:31 | Jaco: "Bulma will definitely blame me for it!"

Significance: Reveals that Gryll and his men are already dead, and that Vegeta will soon follow.

---

Context: Still in the cave. Still.

　11:33 | Jaco: "Is there no way to save him?!"
　11:38 | Potage: "The only way... The only way is to defeat the Superhuman Water!"
　11:42 | Goten: "Defeat him?"
　11:43 | Jaco: "The fake Vegeta?"
　11:46 | Vegeta: "So it's the same as defeating me."

Significance: Reveals that defeating the Superhuman Water will save Vegeta.
In case it weren't obvious already, we're told that it's the same as defeating the real Vegeta.

---

Context: Outside of the cave. Goten and Trunks fuse in preparation for battle.

　14:01 | Gotenks: "Ta-da! Super Gotenks 3 is here!"

Significance: While not in the manga, "Super Gotenks 3" is how the narrator refers to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in Dragon Ball Z.

---

Context: Gotenks tries an assortment of techniques.

　13:21 | Gotenks: "Miracle Punch!"
　13:25 | Gotenks: "Miracle Kick!"
　14:27 | Gotenks: "Great Special Rolling Kick!"
　14:39 | Gotenks: "Super Special Crash Hammer!"
　14:59 | Gotenks: "Finish Special... Flash Strong... Bomber!"

Significance: None. Gotenks prefers cool, flashy-sounding technique names, hence why they're all in English.

---

Context: Sensing ki in battle, Goku appears.

　18:44 | Goten: "Dad, be careful! He can absorb power!"
　18:48 | Copy Vegeta: "I won't do that! This is a serious duel to the death."
　18:56 | Copy Vegeta: "Kakarrot! I will defeat you!"
　19:00 | Copy Gryll: "What are you saying?! Absorb his power!"
　19:04 | Copy Vegeta: "I will show no mercy to anyone who interferes! No matter who they are!"
　19:08 | Copy Gryll: "You refuse to obey my orders?! In that case..."
　19:19 | Potage: "The Superhuman Water is trying to force the clone to obey!"
　19:25 | Vegeta: "You dare give me orders?!"
　19:27 | Copy Vegeta: "I will not be ordered around by anyone!"
　19:34 | Copy Gryll: "W-What?!"
　19:35 | Copy Vegeta: "Get lost, small-fry!"
　19:54 | Potage: "He shook off the Superhuman Water's control!"
　19:58 | Copy Vegeta: "Now the nuisance is gone. Let's get started!"

Significance: After the superhuman water copies Vegeta, Copy-Vegeta rebels and kills Copy-Gryll so that he can fight Goku uninhibited.

[/spoiler]

In my opinion, Roshi isn't there because of his raw power, it's merely for his abilities and expertise but... at the same time, if SSj3 Gotenks is a lot weaker than base Goku/Vegeta and Roshi is "apparently" a challenge for Goku, therefore Roshi is stronger than Gotenks (as SSj3!). Just the sheer thought of it is absurd. I can only cope thinking that Goku was hooolding back, as usual, and Muten Roshi was powered up by the whichcraft spell.

[Ki Breaker]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that roshi was picked over trunks/goten. I used to think it was because goten/trunks were stronger that they should be in the ToP. But now seeing as to how roshi is slightly stronger than gotenks, with the addition of battle experience and more developed techniques, he's a no brainer.

No, Roshi isn't anywhere near Tien let alone Gotenks and that's what the story clearly wants to portray..
Taking into account filler ( and that's exactly what I will call it ) mostly screws with power way too much, it's best to ignore those aspects or not take them too seriously..

It doesn't matter if you call it filler. The point is that mini arc is still 100% part of supers story. It happened whether we like it or not (i hate it btw). Also roshi is stronger than tien.

No, he is not, the fight was an unrestrained Roshi at full power vs a Tien trying not to kill roshi and getting caught off guard by his technique..

Sure, go ahead and take into account every single narration by different writers who seem to have null communication between them and try to piece it all together, everyone else had tried and failed, you go ahead and try your luck..

Or, you could just look at how the story is progressing on a whole getting the full picture instead..

Most have moved on to the second option, seeing as the first is a dead end..

Edit: after rereading it comes off as a little rude that wasn't my intent

[SirTorra]

No, Roshi isn't anywhere near Tien let alone Gotenks and that's what the story clearly wants to portray..
Taking into account filler ( and that's exactly what I will call it ) mostly screws with power way too much, it's best to ignore those aspects or not take them too seriously..

It doesn't matter if you call it filler. The point is that mini arc is still 100% part of supers story. It happened whether we like it or not (i hate it btw). Also roshi is stronger than tien.

No, he is not, the fight was an unrestrained Roshi at full power vs a Tien trying not to kill roshi and getting caught off guard by his technique..

Sure, go ahead and take into account every single narration by different writers who seem to have null communication between them and try to piece it all together, everyone else had tried and failed, you go ahead and try your luck..

Or, you could just look at how the story is progressing on a whole getting the full picture instead..

Most have moved on to the second option, seeing as the first is a dead end..

Edit: after rereading it comes off as a little rude that wasn't my intent

Dragonball has always been Fighter A is stronger than Fighter B who in turn is stronger than Fighter C. In this case, based on Supers continuity and story as a whole, not nitpicking filler arcs and what not, roshi is A gotenks is B and tien is C. So its easy to conclude roshi>tien.

[TheMikado]

What does it not being a Toriyama arc have anything to do with it? It's still part of Super whether you like it or not. Also where does it say it amplified power?

It not being from Toriyama makes it not having any bearing in the overall stories of Super so it shouldn't be used to discuss plot points.

You're WRONG.

[Li'l Lemmy]

C- calm down. Large, bolded text isn't warranted. Concentrate on the substance. o_o;

[precita]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

[omaro34]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

Doesn't surprise me anymore. We've seen blasphemous, asinine asspull power ups before. Nothing fazes me. You're just as strong as the plot requires you to be in Super. Nothing more, nothing less. That's why I hardly post on the strength thread, it's all interpretation.

[MisteryOne]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

What is the problem? The power scale is so fucked up that we don't even know how strong the base saiyans are. Also, if SS2 Trunks was able to fight with SSB tier enemies, why can't Roshi be SS3 Gotenks tier as well?

[FortuneSSJ]

You're just as strong as the plot requires you to be in Super.

That's valid for any show.

[omaro34]

You're just as strong as the plot requires you to be in Super.

That's valid for any show.

True, but in Dragonball it is so valid. Gohan required to be strong enough to compete for the ToP, and a few hours training with big Green gets him back his Mystic form.

Freeza coming back in RoF wouldn't be a threat unless the writers magically made him a prodigy who never trained a day in his life till that point.

So Roshi getting super strong doesn't surprise me.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

Doesn't surprise me anymore. We've seen blasphemous, asinine asspull power ups before. Nothing fazes me. You're just as strong as the plot requires you to be in Super. Nothing more, nothing less. That's why I hardly post on the strength thread, it's all interpretation.

"blasphemous" really? That's a wild exaggeration. What is it exactly "blasphemous" against?
Hasn't that exactly been DB from the start? Not exactly exclusive to DBS. Goku got a massive asspull power up when Killin died. Gohan got when when a barely bonded with Android died. Gohan got another just by sitting there. Goku pulled out SS3 when the plot was convenient, not even to mention villains that conveniently just kept getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

[Boo Machine]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

What is the problem? The power scale is so fucked up that we don't even know how strong the base saiyans are. Also, if SS2 Trunks was able to fight with SSB tier enemies, why can't Roshi be SS3 Gotenks tier as well?

Because Roshi hasn't beaten anyone that's SS3 Gotenks level of Power nor does he have any kind of feat that matches it. His feats include, Fighting Freeza soldiers, shutting down Tien, and kinda giving base Goku a fight, which even then I'm not sure about because nothing about that fight suggested Goku was being evenly matched. Goku was smiling and treating it like a game until he decides to finish it with a blast.

I'm aware of the big joke of "Super scaling is broken so anyone can beat anybody" But lets not be silly here. The scaling isn't air tight but, barring a few moments of ridiculousness , we have a good idea about who is stronger than who.

[Ki Breaker]

You're just as strong as the plot requires you to be in Super.

That's valid for any show.

For any badly written show..
Better planned shows use environmental and other factors to reach a similar result..
Goku wasn't as strong as kid buu in base outta nowhere nor did rage suddenly powerup his SS3 even further, spirit bomb did the job, if it was now, he would have screamed leave Vegeta alone and suddenly pummel buu, then proceed to lose to roshi in SS3 afterwards..
A narrative consistency is required for any show, some do it better than others..

[alakazam^]

This is getting off-topic so I'll just say this: Unless you've been complaining about Goku not inviting Arale to the tournament, I can't take you seriously when you start talking about SS3 Gotenks and Vegeeta.

[perucho1990]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

Doesn't surprise me anymore. We've seen blasphemous, asinine asspull power ups before. Nothing fazes me. You're just as strong as the plot requires you to be in Super. Nothing more, nothing less. That's why I hardly post on the strength thread, it's all interpretation.

Kinda the same thing with Genkidama Trunks being the strongest non-fused character in the series because he 2 shotted Merged Zamasu, good thing Goku forgot about him because Trunks couldve trashed Jiren.

[JulianStyles]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that roshi was picked over trunks/goten. I used to think it was because goten/trunks were stronger that they should be in the ToP. But now seeing as to how roshi is slightly stronger than gotenks, with the addition of battle experience and more developed techniques, he's a no brainer.

No, Roshi isn't anywhere near Tien let alone Gotenks and that's what the story clearly wants to portray..
Taking into account filler ( and that's exactly what I will call it ) mostly screws with power way too much, it's best to ignore those aspects or not take them too seriously..

It doesn't matter if you call it filler. The point is that mini arc is still 100% part of supers story. It happened whether we like it or not (i hate it btw). Also roshi is stronger than tien.

Toshio a dbs writer came out and debunked everything about episode 89. Theres a topic on it here. So either you ignored it or dont do your research. Which would make you just talking out your ass. If you were a smart man you would see that the witchcraft made Tiens students stronger and have abilities like flight and ki sheilds. So I'm going to assume this eluded your ability to put things together. Because you believe that the flight and Ki power up ability Roshi showed is his. Even though 2 or 3 episodes later Roshi literally says I dont know how to fly.

Toshio said Tien is stronger than Roshi and that Roshi got a temporary buff because of witchcraft. If you use your brain, you would understand a witch craft powered up Roshi was a zombie carrying out kill orders. So every attack was at 100%. Roshi used the lightening surprise attack. To educate you on this attack. It uses your own Ki against you. It works on opponents far stronger than the user. So Witch craft Roshi did not beat Tien on power. To further show Roshi was powered up. If you look at the mid air exchange between Tien and Roshi. Tien clocks him on the head 2 or 3 times. Yet he kept going like a controlled corpse.

Now your only point would be is. Well Goku said this. One those are not official translations. The funimation sub will be the correct ones. Two Goku in Super is portrayed as an Idiot. He was more excited about fighting than actually figuring out where this power came from. Also the dialogue does not match the evidence shown in Tiens students and the fact Roshi admits he doesnt have the abilities we saw him display in episode 89.

We see the Sayains base are strong enough to be dominant in the tournament. Look what Caba did in base. Goku and Vegeta have been kicking ass in base. If Roshi was Gokus base or stronger like shown in episode 89. Then Roshi would have some hand to hand fights. Instead hes doing exactly what people predicted he could bring to the table. Which is unique techniques that dont require pure strength. A couple of Kamehamehas, the Lightning surprise attack. ( Which Roshi is seen being winded, and need Tien to save him. Further proof of the attacks unique abilities is that Preecho who by the magazine release of names is U3 strongest fighter. Said "What is this attack!" As if its something never experienced before. ) And in episode 105 Roshi will be using the Mafuba, an attack after will render him helpless. An attack that can be used on anyone of any power. If he was so strong he wouldnt have to resort to such an extreme measure.

The whole everything in Super is canon point is getting tired. If you dont understand the difference between Akiras story board. And Toeis made up stories in order to pad time or expand on things then you shouldnt be talking about DB.

What you need to understand is story telling. Roshi needed to be put over and a reason to be put in the tournament. Tien dominated in ROF. Hes never stoped training. He has no confidence issues or mental weakness. It was never a question of why he was in. But old man Roshi who has had no Kami,King kai training and never participated in any battle in Z. Suddenly hes going to represent the 10 best warriors U7 has to offer? He needed to be put over by a stronger guy. Just like they used Gohan to put over Krillin. They used Tien to put over Roshi. Doesnt mean they are stronger. The tournament is about strategy. Krillin showed he can beat a stronger opponent with techniques. Roshis witch craft form showed he can beat a stronger opponent with techniques. They showed Roshi training to over come his woman addiction. They showed Roshi practicing his Surprise attack with Yajorobi. Why? Because thats the only way he could contribute and survive. And they were telling the audience that.

Next 2 mangas should cover the recruitment arc. And we will see what matches up. What I gaurantee wont be there is a girl from Tiens past set on revenge and magically posses Roshi.

[emi_b7]

Oh look, this turned into the powerl levels thread again

Its kinda funny seeing Kahseral in Pride Troopers main group after jobbing to the saiyan girls.

Really? Which one of them beat him in one blow?

None, Kale and Caulifla beat him in a beam clash after getting their assess kicked by the pride troopers (He was fighting 17 at the time). I wouldn't really call it Jobbing

Isn't that textbook jobbing? I mean, they built Kahseral as a somewhat important character (appears in the opening, has multiple scenes in the recruiting episodes, acted all bossy with the other PT) only for him to lose to Caulifla and Kale. If they would have just defeated the lesser Troopers, you could say they just beat some fodder but, by throwing a (slightly) more established character like Kahseral in there, it gives more credibility to the girls' power. In other words, Kahseral's job was to make Caulifla and a calmer Kale look good, isn't that de definition of jobbing?
I'm not saying that's a bad thing or anything, just that if that's not jobbing (a word that gets thrown around way too much IMO), then maybe I have a bad definition of jobbing, which may very well be the case lol