Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[Soba Mask]

Why we still don't have a Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 if it's simply SSJ stacked on SSG?

[pepd]

So Blanco did come from Tori, and its name is Beast. I expected and wanted it to be like SS green, but I guess I'll have to get used to it. It's less a surprise knowing that they essentially pushed its inclusion and accepted the first design. Still, I would like to see his design, since its stiff animation is a mayor visual aspect of it, and there could be subtle differences that make it look better, like with Orange Piccolo.

[Luso Saiyan]

Regardless, if we're indeed talking about visual buildup, then in those terms the appearance of all three is totally random and without explanation or buildup. Why is Super Saiyan gold, and not some other color? Why is God red, and not some other color? Why does a red haired form combined with a gold haired form result in a blue haired form? It's all rather visually arbitrary, and I'm okay with that.

It's not the color alone that's in question or the design of the transformation. We don't know why one is gold, the other is red and another is blue, as opposed to other colors. What I mean't with visual buildup is that Super Saiyan 3 builds on top of Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan. You can see that it's an uber version of Super Saiyan. More over the top. A continuation of that. That the color palette remains the same aids in that.

Likewise, Blue is the Super Saiyan equivalent of a Saiyan with god ki. Take the god ki out of the equation, and we have what we always had. It's explained and is straightforward.

With Gohan, this looks different and unrelated to everything else. Not only that, it suddenly appears a decade later. Like Gohan was shoved into the movie, I feel like this transformation was shoved into the character as well.

As for things being transformations when they don't necessarily need to be, just as there's no reason Ultra Instinct's ideas had to manifest as a transformation, the same is true for Super Saiyan. Up until it's shown to actually be a transformation, there's nothing that suggests that it would need to be one.

The transformation is an illustration of power. But Ultra Instinct, or what Whis was trying to teach Goku and Vegeta, is not exactly gaining more power, at least not in those terms.

Why we still don't have a Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 if it's simply SSJ stacked on SSG?

Same reason the characters ceased to used those states altogether. They are not as balanced and efficient.

[Soba Mask]

Regardless, if we're indeed talking about visual buildup, then in those terms the appearance of all three is totally random and without explanation or buildup. Why is Super Saiyan gold, and not some other color? Why is God red, and not some other color? Why does a red haired form combined with a gold haired form result in a blue haired form? It's all rather visually arbitrary, and I'm okay with that.

It's not the color alone that's in question or the design of the transformation. We don't know why one is gold, the other is red and another is blue, as opposed to other colors. What I mean't with visual buildup is that Super Saiyan 3 builds on top of Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan. You can see that it's an uber version of Super Saiyan. More over the top. A continuation of that. That the color palette remains the same aids in that.

Likewise, Blue is the Super Saiyan equivalent of a Saiyan with god ki. Take the god ki out of the equation, and we have what we always had. It's explained and is straightforward.

With Gohan, this looks different and unrelated to everything else. Not only that, it suddenly appears a decade later. Like Gohan was shoved into the movie, I feel like this transformation was shoved into the character as well.

As for things being transformations when they don't necessarily need to be, just as there's no reason Ultra Instinct's ideas had to manifest as a transformation, the same is true for Super Saiyan. Up until it's shown to actually be a transformation, there's nothing that suggests that it would need to be one.

The transformation is an illustration of power. But Ultra Instinct, or what Whis was trying to teach Goku and Vegeta, is not exactly gaining more power, at least not in those terms.

Why we still don't have a Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 if it's simply SSJ stacked on SSG?

Same reason the characters ceased to used those states altogether. They are not as balanced and efficient.

You mean like in the anime... The 3rd canon or whatever Goku used it against Black first fight or in the ToP?

And yeah makes no sense using SSB 2 against the like as Jiren if it would be easy

[jjbgood]

Now beast gohan just looks ridicolous with that long ass spikey hair. its like a parody of dragon ball.

And this doesn't?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/drago ... 0509031425

it looks over the top too, but with the difference, that this was supposed to be over the top, because its a failure. Beast Gohans premise is not a failure, its basically his best form he can achive. You cant compare these two.

[Grimlock]

Why we still don't have a Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 if it's simply SSJ stacked on SSG?

Bad writing, or something. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 should have been a thing by now, considering its minor to no drawbacks it provides.

[ankokudaishogun]

Why we still don't have a Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 if it's simply SSJ stacked on SSG?

Probably because they aren't really EFFICIENT, and Blue is all about efficiency:
in the manga, UI comes basically right after completing Blue, making further evolution of Blue obsolete, included Vegeta's Blue Grade-2Evolution
in the anime, Kaiohken Blue basically makes -2 and -3 obsolete as he can get bigger increments


On a side note we got Rosé-2 and Rosé-3 in Heroes, which imply Blue-2 and Blue-3 are in fact possible.
(as well a "Rosé Full Power" that appears to be Rosé+Evil+tail and that has not been explained even remotely)

[Soba Mask]

So Vegeta prior to SSBE during ToP never tried to use SSB2 to beat the likes as Black and Co?

Yeah really effecient

And thanks for mentioning Heroes. It's fanfic over the top but at least the Rose forms made more sense than the stuff we have gotten in manga and animes

[MajinPopo]

I'm torn on Gohan's Beast transformation. I don't like that we had a fairly creatively bankrupt design that was fawned over by production staff. I like the concept, absolutely. The idea that Gohan is actually tapping into some Beast-rage that he exhibited as a kid is a great idea.

It basically just ages up the SSJ2 design, which makes sense, but recolors the eyes and throws a ludicrous hairstyle on. I actually think Beast Gohan's hair looks fine in the Toriyama art, but somehow that translated to a really stiff polygon hat in the movie.

I think it could have been executed better, and here's where I'll say that the GT staff had the fantastic notion to revisit the Oozaru stuff. If anything, it feels like Gohan should have tapped into some of that monkey-power. But I suppose with the tail being gone, and him receiving spiritual upgrades from both Guru and Old Kai, he's essentially evolved beyond it.

Still, I think there should have been some kind of hint that this was a beast-type transformation. When Piccolo grew, it would have been the perfect time for Gohan to grow too and become an Oozaru.

Can you imagine a Kaiju Fight between Cell Max and Oozaru Gohan? What a missed opportunity, especially since it would flip the Saiyaman notion on it's head.

I will say though, it's interesting that they showed a range of emotions for Broly in this movie. I think you could draw parallels between Gohan and Broly even. Emotionally sensitive wunderkinds with untapped beastly potential.

I suppose that there's an idea that the beast is refined over time into man, which comes with spiritual development. It happened to Goku too, so I think it makes a thematic sense, but I still would have liked to see things explored a little more before just pulling out a new recolour out of their butts.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, if Beast Gohan's hair remained black but was still super spiky ridiculous, I think it could've worked out well.

Show it as a true expansion of his original Ultimate form while still showing a noteworthy difference in appearance.

[Grimlock]

So Vegeta prior to SSBE during ToP never tried to use SSB2 to beat the likes as Black and Co?

Yeah really effecient

And a reminder that even though "efficiency" is randomly spoken of, it has nothing to do with what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is. At least, not what the characters have talked about in the movies since its introduction.

It might be that "efficiency" is used for something else, maybe to combine it with a technique, but it doesn't mean that such "efficiency" is lost when it comes to take the form one level further (and another reminder than such combination may not even be in the author's mind. I mean, where is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaio-Ken in the movies?).

After all, I can say that combining Super Saiyan 2 with the power of Super Saiyan God is more efficient than combining a rather "problematic" technique such as Kaio-Ken with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

And thanks for mentioning Heroes. It's fanfic over the top but at least the Rose forms made more sense than the stuff we have gotten in manga and animes

Well, you certainly found something that makes sense, which is more than we can say about other stuff under the "super" umbrella, right?

When Piccolo grew, it would have been the perfect time for Gohan to grow too and become an Oozaru.

Can you imagine a Kaiju Fight between Cell Max and Oozaru Gohan? What a missed opportunity,

We just needed to get a pair of giant pliers. If you know what I mean.

[MajinPopo]

We just needed to get a pair of giant pliers. If you know what I mean.

Hah! This could have been Oolong and Puar's time to shine!

[FatLee]

Why we still don't have a Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 if it's simply SSJ stacked on SSG?

Bad writing, or something. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 should have been a thing by now, considering its minor to no drawbacks it provides.

The fact that SSGSS2 doesn’t exist is not in any way, shape, or form “bad writing” - what a ridiculous thing to say. Forms =/= writing quality. One could argue that using the same formula again would be lazy, which is far closer bad writing than the version of events we do have.

[Soba Mask]

Yeah SSBE was so awesome and told well

Breaking limit and Rage is the new stuff

[HeroR]

Yeah SSBE was so awesome and told well

Breaking limit and Rage is the new stuff

Those have existed since Dragon Ball Z.

[Skar]

Yeah SSBE was so awesome and told well

Breaking limit and Rage is the new stuff

I think the problem with SSJBE is that it implied Blue would be upgraded with other SSJ forms since it just looked like a Blue grade 2. Toriyama said that SSJ2 and 3 were powered up variations of SSJ1 or something like that so I assumed he applied that to Blue since he didn't give it any upgrades himself. It could explain why they only use SSJ1 against Broly before using the God forms. I'm not sure why they didn't figure this out during all their training after the Cell saga but I guess it was from their training with Whis.

[TheMikado]

I'm torn on Gohan's Beast transformation. I don't like that we had a fairly creatively bankrupt design that was fawned over by production staff. I like the concept, absolutely. The idea that Gohan is actually tapping into some Beast-rage that he exhibited as a kid is a great idea.

It basically just ages up the SSJ2 design, which makes sense, but recolors the eyes and throws a ludicrous hairstyle on. I actually think Beast Gohan's hair looks fine in the Toriyama art, but somehow that translated to a really stiff polygon hat in the movie.

I think it could have been executed better, and here's where I'll say that the GT staff had the fantastic notion to revisit the Oozaru stuff. If anything, it feels like Gohan should have tapped into some of that monkey-power. But I suppose with the tail being gone, and him receiving spiritual upgrades from both Guru and Old Kai, he's essentially evolved beyond it.

Still, I think there should have been some kind of hint that this was a beast-type transformation. When Piccolo grew, it would have been the perfect time for Gohan to grow too and become an Oozaru.

Can you imagine a Kaiju Fight between Cell Max and Oozaru Gohan? What a missed opportunity, especially since it would flip the Saiyaman notion on it's head.

I will say though, it's interesting that they showed a range of emotions for Broly in this movie. I think you could draw parallels between Gohan and Broly even. Emotionally sensitive wunderkinds with untapped beastly potential.

I suppose that there's an idea that the beast is refined over time into man, which comes with spiritual development. It happened to Goku too, so I think it makes a thematic sense, but I still would have liked to see things explored a little more before just pulling out a new recolour out of their butts.

Somebody give this man a job in the Dragon Room.

[MajinPopo]

One thing I'm curious to see the future of, is Dr. Hedo. He's obviously got some serious skills, and is still morally grey even if he loves the "idea" of Superheroes.

I think his acceptance into the gang, and the Capsule Corp job offer, happened far too quickly. I really hope he doesn't go the way of the other "redeemed friends" and just become a non-entity that just shows up for Bulma's parties.

With a talented writer, this could open up so many new story possibilities. It'll give Bulma someone to play off of, too. Meaning that she gets more tech-style plots than "boob job and butt lift" gags.

Now, the thing is, we know that the Pilaf gang are nebulously working at Capsule Corp too. I don't know what their deal is. They're presenting as children, okay, but nobody questions where their parents are. They just get this weird job that involves being Bulma's gofers in a way, without question. I think that says a lot about Bulma's moral greyness in itself. Weirdly, I don't think Bulma or anyone else ever realizes that Pilaf and co. are the same guys from when they were all kids.

Thing is, we were also shown in the Super anime that even "young Pilaf " is still a technical genius, a quality shown off in the original DB anime. He even helps Bulma rewrite code.

Now Dr. Hedo and the tech-oriented Pilaf gang are both working at Capsule Corp, and they're both morally grey tech-wizards with villainous tendencies, even when they're in the employ of equally morally grey "heroes". Could we see Hedo and Pilaf teaming up? It does make a nice thematic continuation of revisiting foes linked to early DB, and continues the "Pilaf working with/for villains" theme reminiscent of the King Piccolo saga.

Honestly, I could see Hedo and Pilaf just being straight up friends/rivals, in a way that Pilaf isn't with Shu or Mai. Like, relating to him as an equal rather than "I'm your emperor". I could see them getting into a lot of chaos. Hedo/Pilaf buddy comedy when?

If the goal is to recenter the focus around Earth, then Hedo and Pilaf would make good plot devices to cause mischief and chaos on Earth without full villainy, giving the heroes a continual group of threats to take care of. You could have a Monster of the Week style saga, which focuses on the Earth heroes stopping these problems they don't realise is being caused by Hedo and Pilaf in their pursuit of whatever goal they're trying to achieve.

Intersperse those Earth battles with an ongoing B-plot off-Earth with Goku/Vegeta/Broly. Kind of like how we'd alternate between Earth plot and what's going on in the Kai realm/otherworld.

[WittyUsername]

Frankly, I think keeping up with all these new transformations is a pain. Super Saiyan God was a neat idea at the time, but I’m not a fan of the precedent that it set. At best, this obsession with giving characters flashy makeovers makes Dragon Ball feel like a toy commercial, which I suppose isn’t too far off the mark.

[HeroR]

Frankly, I think keeping up with all these new transformations is a pain. Super Saiyan God was a neat idea at the time, but I’m not a fan of the precedent that it set. At best, this obsession with giving characters flashy makeovers makes Dragon Ball feel like a toy commercial, which I suppose isn’t too far off the mark.

It didn't set anything. Dragon Ball has been like this since Z. Z gave us Super Saiyan, the Graded Super Saiyan forms, Super Saiyan 2, and then Super Saiyan 3. The only thing Super added were the heroes non-Saiyans characters getting forms and new forms that isn't just branches of Super Saiyan.