Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm aware that they don't come from Toriyama, but I don't see any reason to ignore them if the author approves them & they don't contradict the manga.

And what's wrong with using different boosts that don't contradict the manga?

[Skar]

Please learn the meaning of the word "official" and then come back.

He's aware that it's official. He meant whether or not it was canon and that the author would make the effort to comply with it. I'm sure all agree that V-Jump, the anime, movies, GT, are all official works of Dragonball.

I'm aware that they don't come from Toriyama, but I don't see any reason to ignore them if the author approves them & they don't contradict the manga.

Toriyama approved of the anime so should we accept filler as canon to the manga unless it contradicts it? On the guide here they note that Toriyama had "little to no involvement in the guidebooks" but contributed ideas and character designs to the anime. He had more involvement with the anime yet ignored it on his recent continuations of the manga. Toriyama said before Battle of Gods he reread the manga to refresh his memory but never mentioned anything about the guidebooks. He made an effort to stay consistent with the manga but apparently never mentioned anything about being consistent with the guidebooks or anything that didn't come directly from him. Saying he approved doesn't mean he obligated to use any of that information if he doesn't feel like it. I'm sure he approved of V-Jump and all it's numbers since it was the magazine that published the manga. Is his approval of the anime and V-Jump different than his approval of the guidebooks?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 47#p890647 - updated

[Captain Space]

Yes, the narration said it doubled Goku's power...why did it say that? Because Goku had just used the Kaioken x2 against Vegeta. That's what it was referring to. That's not at all the same as the narration saying that Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are the same thing.

King Kai: "Goku, you have come further with the Kaioken than even I have...but remember that at your present level of skill, you must beware of overusing it. The slightest error in your control, and you might destroy yourself...increase it to no higher than twice your normal power...do you understand?"

Ergo Goku is advised to use it at any level up to and including x2; not x2 only. When he uses it on Nappa, it just "amplifies" his power to some unspecified amount, and the same in the first use against Vegeta...then Vegeta does his fireball thing, Goku goes up to x2...and then he says:

"I can't keep up, even with twice the Kaioken..."

Clear indication that x2 is higher than what he'd been using before that.

-

Anyway, the copy I have has that narration box saying:

"Not even doubling his strength through the Kaioken was enough to stop the saiyan...now what will he do?!"

That's like saying 'not even tripling his strength through the Kaioken was enough to push back the Gyarikku-ho' or 'not even multiplying his strength by 20 through the Kaioken was enough to stop Freeza'...it's not saying that he'd only been using that level up until now.

[FoolsGil]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 47#p890647 - updated

It's my first time checking these power levels. And you're saying that Goku by the end of Z, base form, has a power level of one trillion? D-don't you think that's too much? Kind of breaking the suspension of disbelief, don't you think?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's my first time checking these power levels. And you're saying that Goku by the end of Z, base form, has a power level of one trillion? D-don't you think that's too much? Kind of breaking the suspension of disbelief, don't you think?

I go with SS3 Goku >= Kid Buu = Uub >= EoZ base Goku

Goku was expecting someone stronger than Good Buu to enter the tournament, then after he fights on par with Uub, he calls Uub exactly what he expected. So I would think the minimum level is at least above Good Buu.

[Captain Space]

I just interpreted from Goku's statement "someone with strong ki", just because he mentioned "us and Buu" as the only other possible winners.

(Oh, also, forgot to say in my last post--I admit I did make a mistake earlier, claiming that the narration never mentions Kaioken. At that point I was just looking at the fight with Nappa. However, as evident in my last post I have since corrected this mistake, looking at the fight with Vegeta, but that doesn't change my opinion, again as outlined there.)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm aware that they don't come from Toriyama, but I don't see any reason to ignore them if the author approves them & they don't contradict the manga.

And what's wrong with using different boosts that don't contradict the manga?

You can ignore them if you want to, but we still have official information that aren't contradicted by anything, so there is no reason to call them incorrect.

Toriyama approved of the anime so should we accept filler as canon to the manga unless it contradicts it?

It's not the same thing. The anime is an adaptation of the manga, it's not supposed to be part of the manga, it's an alternative version of the story in the manga. However, the guidebooks are have supplementary information for the manga, and they present information about the manga.

Yes, the narration said it doubled Goku's power...why did it say that? Because Goku had just used the Kaioken x2 against Vegeta. That's what it was referring to. That's not at all the same as the narration saying that Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are the same thing.

But he had only used the normal Kaio-ken against Vegeta when the narrator said that. Goku used Kaio-ken once, then the narrator in the next chapter said that the Kaio-ken, which doubles the user's power, wasn't enough.

King Kai: "Goku, you have come further with the Kaioken than even I have...but remember that at your present level of skill, you must beware of overusing it. The slightest error in your control, and you might destroy yourself...increase it to no higher than twice your normal power...do you understand?"

This just means that Kaio told him not to use anything higher than normal Kaio-ken, which is Kaio-ken x2.

"I can't keep up, even with twice the Kaioken..."

Clear indication that x2 is higher than what he'd been using before that.

This isn't what it says in the original manga.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P13.5-6, P14.2
Goku: “Shit…!! His power and speed… [ ] I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2. [ ] I don’t care if my body breaks or I die! I’ve gotta up the Kaio-Ken to x3!!”

This is the most literal translation of the original manga.

Anyway, the copy I have has that narration box saying:

"Not even doubling his strength through the Kaioken was enough to stop the saiyan...now what will he do?!"

This isn't what the original manga says either.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

I assume you are using Viz's adaptation of the manga? If yes, it's not trustworthy for debates.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm aware that they don't come from Toriyama, but I don't see any reason to ignore them if the author approves them & they don't contradict the manga.

And what's wrong with using different boosts that don't contradict the manga?

You can ignore them if you want to, but we still have official information that aren't contradicted by anything, so there is no reason to call them incorrect.

I never called the SEG multipliers incorrect. I just have a personal preference. Unless Toriyama himself says he came up with those multipliers, one shouldn't be forced to use them.

Also, out of curiosity, do you believe:

1. Yakon > Kaioshin?

2. Vegetto's BP = Goku's BP multiplied by Vegeta's BP?

3. Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura?

All of these are stated in guidebooks, and aren't actually contradicted by the manga.

[Skar]

It's not the same thing. The anime is an adaptation of the manga, it's not supposed to be part of the manga, it's an alternative version of the story in the manga. However, the guidebooks are have supplementary information for the manga, and they present information about the manga.

It's the same concept because Toei and Shueisha tried filling in the blanks with what they thought might be right. The guidebooks also included information from the anime, movies, and GT. I'm pretty sure they didn't consult Toei for all that anime-exclusive information since it's noted that all the guidebooks were compiled by Shueisha. You only replied to the first question I asked. If Toriyama considered the guidebooks canon to his manga then why didn't he ever mention rereading them along with the manga before Battle of Gods? He's making no effort to comply with them. Do consider everything in V-Jump also canon since it's published by Shueisha and Daizenshuu took some of their information from it?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Also, out of curiosity, do you believe:

1. Yakon > Kaioshin?

Nope. I think that Kaioshin was just cautious about both Pui Pui & Yakon, because he had only heard rumors about them and didn't know their actual powers & abilities. He was under the assumption that since Babidi chose them, they must be dangerous, but it turned out they were trash.

2. Vegetto's BP = Goku's BP multiplied by Vegeta's BP?

Nope. I don't believe that this is what the guidebook says. The guidebook says that the Potara don't work as an addition, but more like a multiplication (which is obvious from the manga that Vegetto is many times stronger than Goku or Vegeta, and isn't just Goku + Vegeta), and then it says with big letters on top of the manga panels that display how Goku & Vegeta became Vegetto that "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto", which, IMO, means "Goku cross Vegeta make Vegetto". It says nothing about battle powers.

3. Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura?

Yep. Not because of the guidebooks though, since they contradict each other. I believe that Gohan was a SS2 because it makes more sense for him to use his full power against a guy that is as strong as Cell, and when a terrible demon that could destroy the universe was about to be revived. I do believe that the sparks are a trait of SS2, but I believe that Gohan doesn't always have sparks in that form because he was rusty.

It's the same concept because Toei and Shueisha tried filling in the blanks with what they thought might be right.

No, Toei told their own story based on Toriyama's story. In the manga, Goku didn't meet Tenshinhan before the tournament, Dodoria didn't kill Cargo, etc. They didn't just add parts to the story, they also altered them for various reasons.

The guidebooks also included information from the anime, movies, and GT. I'm pretty sure they didn't consult Toei for all that anime-exclusive information since it's noted that all the guidebooks were compiled by Shueisha. You only replied to the first question I asked.

The manga-guidebooks are for the manga, and the anime-guidebooks are for the anime. Shueisha has different organization teams, Caramel Mama do the manga guidebooks, and Kisōsha do the anime ones, and in the case of Daizenshuu #7/Chozenshuu #4, which is a manga/anime guidebook, they do their own parts, and the anime-only information are marked as anime-only.

If Toriyama considered the guidebooks canon to his manga then why didn't he ever mention rereading them along with the manga before Battle of Gods? He's making no effort to comply with them.

Because 95% of the guidebooks are old information.

Do consider everything in V-Jump also canon since it's published by Shueisha and Daizenshuu took some of their information from it?

I consider canon Toriyama's works (DB, Jaco, DB-, BoG, FnF, Dr. Slump (maybe), Neko Majin (maybe)), the JSAT manga adaptation (Tarble is mentioned in BoG, and Toriyama liked the manga better), and the guidebooks of Toriyama's works when they don't contradict his works.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nope. I think that Kaioshin was just cautious about both Pui Pui & Yakon, because he had only heard rumors about them and didn't know their actual powers & abilities. He was under the assumption that since Babidi chose them, they must be dangerous, but it turned out they were trash.

That's true for Pocus, but Yakon is debatable. Kaioshin seemed to know who he was, and knew he ate light energy. He also wanted to team up on Yakon, even after seeing Yakon's movement. The Daizenshuu also says that Kaioshin fears Yakon (nothing about Babidi or Babidi's magic.) The way Kaioshin feared Yakon was similar to the way he feared Dabura, and most people seem to agree Dabura > Kaioshin.

Babidi and Dabura also think Pocus and Yakon will be enough for Kaioshin.

Nope. I don't believe that this is what the guidebook says. The guidebook says that the Potara don't work as an addition, but more like a multiplication (which is obvious from the manga that Vegetto is many times stronger than Goku or Vegeta, and isn't just Goku + Vegeta), and then it says with big letters on top of the manga panels that display how Goku & Vegeta became Vegetto that "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto", which, IMO, means "Goku cross Vegeta make Vegetto". It says nothing about battle powers.

I guess that's one way to interpret it. I just always thought it meant Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP = Vegetto, which I personally don't follow because that would be far too big of a number.

Yep. Not because of the guidebooks though, since they contradict each other. I believe that Gohan was a SS2 because it makes more sense for him to use his full power against a guy that is as strong as Cell, and when a terrible demon that could destroy the universe was about to be revived. I do believe that the sparks are a trait of SS2, but I believe that Gohan doesn't always have sparks in that form because he was rusty.

I personally believe he was Super Saiyan, but that's a debate for another time and different thread.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's true for Pocus, but Yakon is debatable. Kaioshin seemed to know who he was, and knew he ate light energy. He also wanted to team up on Yakon, even after seeing Yakon's movement. The Daizenshuu also says that Kaioshin fears Yakon (nothing about Babidi or Babidi's magic.) The way Kaioshin feared Yakon was similar to the way he feared Dabura, and most people seem to agree Dabura > Kaioshin.

Kaioshin knew about him, but he didn't know everything about him. I'm not saying he was afraid of him because he was under Babidi's spell, I'm saying he was afraid of him because Babidi chose him to be one of his warriors, and according to Kaioshin, he only chooses the strongest from the universe.

I don't think he is stronger, because Gohan says that he & Goku can beat him together without transforming, and Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. So, I don't think it fits well.

Babidi and Dabura also think Pocus and Yakon will be enough for Kaioshin.

When did they say that?

I guess that's one way to interpret it. I just always thought it meant Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP = Vegetto, which I personally don't follow because that would be far too big of a number.

Not only that, but it also doesn't make sense for battle power units (a way to measure ki created by random aliens) to be related with the Potara (ancient magical weapons created by gods), and if Vegetto was that strong, it wouldn't make sense for him to transform into a Super Saiyan.

I personally believe he was Super Saiyan, but that's a debate for another time and different thread.

I'm OK with each interpretation, each have their own share of evidence, and I've changed my mind countless times (though I think I've made up my mind now permanently). I just personally believe that SS2 makes more sense. But yeah, let's not debate about that now.

[Skar]

The manga-guidebooks are for the manga, and the anime-guidebooks are for the anime. Shueisha has different organization teams, Caramel Mama do the manga guidebooks, and Kisōsha do the anime ones, and in the case of Daizenshuu #7/Chozenshuu #4, which is a manga/anime guidebook, they do their own parts, and the anime-only information are marked as anime-only.

That wasn't really what I was asking. How would you know Shueisha is 100% right and they're not just filling in the blanks with whatever they think can fit if didn't get Toei's opinion on those guidebooks? Is there any evidence that Toei's staff looked over the anime-exclusive guidebooks?

Because 95% of the guidebooks are old information.

Yes and he has not mentioned once that he reread the guidebooks to comply with the small percentage information that Shueisha came up with themselves. He had SSJ1 Vegeta surpass SSJ3 Goku and said that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are only powered-up variations of SSJ1. If they're all a set multiplier like in the SEG then he wouldn't have mentioned SSJ1 separately from the two later forms. Instead he would've only said they were all powered-up variations of base. If he cared to stay consistent with the SEG he could've just had Vegeta transform into SSJ3 or mention something about his base being that much stronger than Goku's. In the SEG itself he's questioning the 50x multiplier so I think that's clear enough that he either doesn't care about complying with their numbers or that they didn't even run these numbers by him before publishing them.

I consider canon Toriyama's works (DB, Jaco, DB-, BoG, FnF, Dr. Slump (maybe), Neko Majin (maybe)), the JSAT manga adaptation (Tarble is mentioned in BoG, and Toriyama liked the manga better), and the guidebooks of Toriyama's works when they don't contradict his works.

Okay then that means you consider V-Jump's info also canon since it was written by the same company as the guidebooks. The idea that you'll accept the guidebooks only when they don't contradict the manga doesn't make much sense to me. If we're supposed to rely on Shueisha and assume they're knowledgeable enough about the manga to only give us canon information then there shouldn't be any contradictions. The fact that there are some and Shueisha didn't notice should cause you to question the rest of their information. We were all able to find these contradicts fairly easily.

[miguelnuva1]

I personally believe he was Super Saiyan, but that's a debate for another time and different thread.

I'm OK with each interpretation, each have their own share of evidence, and I've changed my mind countless times (though I think I've made up my mind now permanently). I just personally believe that SS2 makes more sense. But yeah, let's not debate about that now.

Gohan has all the traits of MSSJ and zero traits of SSJ2 unless you include the anime.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That wasn't really what I was asking. How would you know Shueisha is 100% right and they're not just filling in the blanks with whatever they think can fit if didn't get Toei's opinion on those guidebooks?

I know that the guidebooks aren't 100% correct because they do contain a few obvious mistakes here & there.

Is there any evidence that Toei's staff looked over the anime-exclusive guidebooks?

Eh? The guidebooks came out after the series ended.

Yes and he has not mentioned once that he reread the guidebooks to comply with the small percentage information that Shueisha came up with themselves.

I'm not saying that this is the official canon, we don't have one. I'm saying what is canon for me, what my personal canon is.

And the guidebooks are supplementary books. It is them that are supposed to follow the story, not the other way around.

He had SSJ1 Vegeta surpass SSJ3 Goku

We don't know if Vegeta was a SS1 or SS2.

and said that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are only powered-up variations of SSJ1.

This doesn't stop them from being multipliers like the guidebooks state.

Okay then that means you consider V-Jump's info also canon since it was written by the same company as the guidebooks.

The V-Jump magazines are not guidebooks approved by Toriyama, so no.

The idea that you'll accept the guidebooks only when they don't contradict the manga doesn't make much sense to me. If we're supposed to rely on Shueisha and assume they're knowledgeable enough about the manga to only give us canon information then there shouldn't be any contradictions. The fact that there are some and Shueisha didn't notice should cause you to question the rest of their information. We were all able to find these contradicts fairly easily.

If anything that has inconsistencies is non-canon, the only canonical parts of the franchise are chapters 1-53 of the original manga.

Gohan has all the traits of MSSJ and zero traits of SSJ2 unless you include the anime.

I'm aware of every little detail on this subject. But if you believe that Gohan was a SS2 when he transformed during the Videl vs Spopovitch fight, then he doesn't have all traits of SS1. His SS hairstyle is different from the SS1 hairstyle he had during his training with Goten, and it's identical to the SS hairstyle he has through the rest of Boo arc (against Kibito, against Dabra, etc). As for his aura, like I said before, it looks like his SS1 aura most of the time because he has gotten rusty after 7 years. It also doesn't make sense for Gohan to hold back against Dabra, and especially when trying to destroy Boo's egg, and supposedly giving his all.

So, Gohan was a Super Saiyan only during his fight with the thieves & training with Goten, while he was a Super Saiyan 2 when he got angry on Spopovitch, when he "fought" with Kibito, when he fought with Dabra, when he tried to prevent Boo's revival & during his fight with him, and when he took the Z-Sword & during his training with it.

Long story short...

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

.. the hairstyle says it all.

[miguelnuva1]

Gohan has all the traits of MSSJ and zero traits of SSJ2 unless you include the anime.

I'm aware of every little detail on this subject. But if you believe that Gohan was a SS2 when he transformed during the Videl vs Spopovitch fight, then he doesn't have all traits of SS1. His SS hairstyle is different from the SS1 hairstyle he had during his training with Goten, and it's identical to the SS hairstyle he has through the rest of Boo arc (against Kibito, against Dabra, etc). As for his aura, like I said before, it looks like his SS1 aura most of the time because he has gotten rusty after 7 years. It also doesn't make sense for Gohan to hold back against Dabra, and especially when trying to destroy Boo's egg, and supposedly giving his all.

So, Gohan was a Super Saiyan only during his fight with the thieves & training with Goten, while he was a Super Saiyan 2 when he got angry on Spopovitch, when he "fought" with Kibito, when he fought with Dabra, when he tried to prevent Boo's revival & during his fight with him, and when he took the Z-Sword & during his training with it.

Long story short...

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

.. the hairstyle says it all.

Gohan has two MSSJ hair styles. The Hairstyle at the tourment looks different from the one used against Dabura as well.

Spoiler:

Gohan from the budokai onwards had a MSSJ hair style with one bang that was different from his SSJ2 budokai hair plus all the traits for SSJ2 appearing at one time and not the other plus the full color manga and one of the daiz books there is more than enough evidence to put down the ssj2 claim.

[Kaboom]

Seriously, why would anyone go so far as to trace out and carefully analyze tiny little individual tufts of Gohan's hair?

Just going to make a general statement/plea before this sub-topic goes too far... stop thinking about this like an over-analytical fan for like two minutes. Instead, think like Toriyama, or one of his casual or young readers.

Does anyone REALLY think that Toriyama would so carefully and painstakingly draw a specific shape and number of Gohan's front hair spikes and expect THAT to be the key defining visual trait of Super Saiyan 2? Do you REALLY think he would expect his age 5-13 readers to pick up on something like that and rely on it to figure out when Gohan was using which form?

OR would he use something that really stands out and would be easy for a child to pick up on... like putting fancy lightning bolts in Gohan's ki aura? But just in case that wasn't quite enough for children to understand, maybe he'd even have another character actually demonstrate and label the two different forms later, for a little extra clarity. Oh wait, he did.

This is a textbook case of "can't see the forest for the trees."


You know why I think Gohan's hair looks a little itty bitty different from before the tournament? Because a month passed and it grew out a little.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gohan has two MSSJ hair styles. The Hairstyle at the tourment looks different from the one used against Dabura as well.

Spoiler:

Gohan from the budokai onwards had a MSSJ hair style with one bang that was different from his SSJ2 budokai hair

Except if he wasn't a Super Saiyan at any point in the tournament, and he was a Super Saiyan 2 all the time.

plus all the traits for SSJ2 appearing at one time and not the other plus the full color manga

As I said, the aura in his SS2 is like his SS aura (aka weaker) most of the time because he hasn't done much training over the years.

and one of the daiz books there is more than enough evidence to put down the ssj2 claim.

What about the other one of the Daizenshuu books that states that Gohan was a SS2 against Dabra?

And what does this say about Gohan? All I see is differences between SS & SS2 Goku.

You know why I think Gohan's hair looks a little itty bitty different from before the tournament? Because a month passed and it grew out a little.

That makes sense as well, but I don't see it like that.

[Kaboom]

As I said, the aura in his SS2 is like his SS aura (aka weaker) most of the time because he hasn't done much training over the years.

Then why does Gohan look different at the tournament from every other supposed instance of his Super Saiyan 2?

It's not like he was somehow stronger then than he was during all the other supposed times he used SS2. In fact, every time he was wounded or lost energy, he got healed by Kibito or a senzu, so he DEFINITELY wasn't any different in strength. If anything, he would get a minor Saiyan healing boost after Boo almost killed him, and be rockin' the sparks again when he pulled out the Z-Sword.

So yeah, "he lacks sparks because he's weak" doesn't even come close to making any sense.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/sor ... rences.jpg

And what does this say about Gohan? All I see is differences between SS & SS2 Goku.

...Do you really, REALLY think that's what's being said here?

That Goku explicitly said "I'm going to show you the Super Saiyan forms," but all he showed were his forms specifically? Forms that just so happen to look exactly the same for Vegeta, Gotenks, and the younger Gohan, but somehow look different for the current Gohan 90% of the time?