The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

Vegetto is not the god that some make him out to be. While, he would win this match-up, his power is grossly inflated IMO.

I feel the exact same way.

[Insertclevername]

Count me too, I kind of find it slightly annoying how some users just use it as some dismissive, one word answer without actually explaining why.

[Rocketman]

Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto.

[Fox666]

[Gonstead]

Different fusion, different result.

Fusion Dance = A + B
Potarra = A x B

[freezamite]

Do you really think that a Cell with lets say, 10.000 times his normal power would loose to Vegetto?

Yup. Lose badly, too.

Man, If Vegetto had that much strength he could destroy Bu-Gohan without transforming even into a SSJ, and he transformed into a SSJ2. ¡Vegetto is waaaayyyy weaker than that!

The difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3 is pretty dang high. SSJ2 is 100x your strength and SSJ3 is 400x your strength. That's 4 times higher!

Those numbers are not from the manga, because from what can be seen on there, is that SSJ3 is at best +20% increase over maximum SSJ2, or even less.

There's nothing to indicate that Cell and Freeza could get anywhere near that high. Higher "starting power" doesn't mean much.

Both Freezer and Cell didn't trained in their whole life.
Yamcha, Ten-Shin, Krilin... all of them had increases in strength that surpassed by far this 10.000 multiplier I gave Cell.
Also Vegeta did this (and Vegeta was trained when he arrived earth).
Why couldn't them increase their power in the same proportion if they had trained properly? Cell goes from SSJ to SSJ2 power-wise only because of a zenkay. Another zenkay and he would be well over SSJ3 level at least...

[hleV]

Isn't that in an anime-based guide? I tend not to rely on anime or anything anime-based.

Oh and freezamite, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Read the manga, some DB guidebooks (preferably manga-based), or hell, just read some important threads in these forums, then come here to discuss those things. But I'll elaborate a little:

Do you really think that a Cell with lets say, 10.000 times his normal power would loose to Vegetto?

Yup. Lose badly, too.

Man, If Vegetto had that much strength he could destroy Bu-Gohan without transforming even into a SSJ, and he transformed into a SSJ2. ¡Vegetto is waaaayyyy weaker than that!

Vegetto didn't know just how freaking strong he was at first (it's a fact, Vegetto admitted it himself after seeing how hopeless Boo was against him) and Elder Kaioshin told Goku to go SSJ after fusing. That's a perfect explanation for why (besides just showing how cool he is) Vegetto went SSJ without actually needing to.

The difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3 is pretty dang high. SSJ2 is 100x your strength and SSJ3 is 400x your strength. That's 4 times higher!

Those numbers are not from the manga, because from what can be seen on there, is that SSJ3 is at best +20% increase over maximum SSJ2, or even less.

These numbers are from a manga-based guidebook called Super Exciting Guide (may I add that all the guidebooks were somewhat supervised and approved by Akira Toriyama - the author of DB). SSJ = 50x base, SSJ2 = 2x SSJ, SSJ3 = 4x SSJ2.

There's nothing to indicate that Cell and Freeza could get anywhere near that high. Higher "starting power" doesn't mean much.

Both Freezer and Cell didn't trained in their whole life.
Yamcha, Ten-Shin, Krilin... all of them had increases in strength that surpassed by far this 10.000 multiplier I gave Cell.
Also Vegeta did this (and Vegeta was trained when he arrived earth).

It's not about multiplying your strength... but training to get stronger by some amount. The biggest leap for human was Kuririn, who, by training, went from however strong he was when he came to Kame House, to nearly 2000. Later he got hidden power unlocked, but that doesn't count.

[VegettoEX]

And why does a statement like that have to be taken as a literal formula about strength? It's way easier to write "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks" as a nice pretty splash on a page than it is "When you combine Goten and Trunks via the fusion dance, the result is a new character named Gotenks!"

I don't read "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks" or "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" as anything other than BIG SPLASH ON PAGE SAYING COOL CHARACTER NAMES.

As for the rest of you, knock off such silly statements like, "Man, you don't know jack. Read up and then come back when you can pretend like you know something." That is soooooo ridiculously off-putting. There's no way I'd want to have a conversation with you if you responded to me like that. You make yourself look bad, and you make the community look bad. I'm not going to tolerate it.

[Saiga]

There's nothing to indicate that Cell and Freeza could get anywhere near that high. Higher "starting power" doesn't mean much.

Both Freezer and Cell didn't trained in their whole life.
Yamcha, Ten-Shin, Krilin... all of them had increases in strength that surpassed by far this 10.000 multiplier I gave Cell.
Also Vegeta did this (and Vegeta was trained when he arrived earth).
Why couldn't them increase their power in the same proportion if they had trained properly? Cell goes from SSJ to SSJ2 power-wise only because of a zenkay. Another zenkay and he would be well over SSJ3 level at least...

Again, that still isn't indicative of anything. You're comparing apples and oranges - what the humans and Saiyans are capable of doesn't really mean anything for what Freeza and Cell are capable of.

Why would they increase their power in the same proportion? They don't have all that much in common with the humans/Saiyans, so I don't know why you'd make an assumption like that. It's not like Dragon Ball ever implied that everyone can increase their power up to a maximum set multiple through training.

[freezamite]

Oh and freezamite, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Read the manga, some DB guidebooks (preferably manga-based), or hell, just read some important threads in these forums, then come here to discuss those things.

I've read the manga plenty of times, and those guides you're talking about... are the same guides that have been proven wrong? (Radditz 1500, Nappa 4000 etc. etc.)

Vegetto didn't know just how freaking strong he was at first (it's a fact, Vegetto admitted it himself after seeing how hopeless Boo was against him) and Elder Kaioshin told Goku to go SSJ after fusing. That's a perfect explanation for why (besides just showing how cool he is) Vegetto went SSJ without actually needing to.

It's logic he didn't know how strong he was, but if transforming into SSJ was overdoing it, then why he didn't distransform and fight in normal state?

These numbers are from a manga-based guidebook called Super Exciting Guide (may I add that all the guidebooks were somewhat supervised and approved by Akira Toriyama - the author of DB). SSJ = 50x base, SSJ2 = 2x SSJ, SSJ3 = 4x SSJ2.

Toriyama himself stated that he thought about the untrained SSJ being a change of 10x base power, not 50x. But the solely fact of considering SSJ like KK when SSJ power varies not only between levels, but also between the stages of a particular level (most obvious case is SSJ1, but SSJ2 can also be gradually improved, and I suppose SSJ3 too) demonstrate that those guides have the same credibility as the anime filler.

There's nothing to indicate that Cell and Freeza could get anywhere near that high. Higher "starting power" doesn't mean much.

Both Freezer and Cell didn't trained in their whole life.
Yamcha, Ten-Shin, Krilin... all of them had increases in strength that surpassed by far this 10.000 multiplier I gave Cell.
Also Vegeta did this (and Vegeta was trained when he arrived earth).

It's not about multiplying your strength... but training to get stronger by some amount. The biggest leap for human was Kuririn, who, by training, went from however strong he was when he came to Kame House, to nearly 2000. Later he got hidden power unlocked, but that doesn't count.[/quote]
Krilin got hidden power unlocked but that doesn't mean he couldn't reach that level through training. I mean, are you telling me that both Yamcha and Ten-Shin never surpassed those 1500 units they had when fighting against Saibamen?

Again, that still isn't indicative of anything. You're comparing apples and oranges - what the humans and Saiyans are capable of doesn't really mean anything for what Freeza and Cell are capable of.

Yes, of course, this is just speculation. It's like "power unleashed vegetto", only we can imagine how strong those fictional characters would be.

[hleV]

I've read the manga plenty of times, and those guides you're talking about... are the same guides that have been proven wrong? (Radditz 1500, Nappa 4000 etc. etc.)

Nothing wrong with those numbers.

It's logic he didn't know how strong he was, but if transforming into SSJ was overdoing it, then why he didn't distransform and fight in normal state?

Firstly, it would look foolish to go SSJ and then revert back; secondly, since Vegetto has the SSJ form mastered, it's not like it bothers him any bit.

Toriyama himself stated that he thought about the untrained SSJ being a change of 10x base power, not 50x.

Yes. But he agreed that it doesn't work and that the real multiplier is 50x.

But the solely fact of considering SSJ like KK when SSJ power varies not only between levels, but also between the stages of a particular level (most obvious case is SSJ1, but SSJ2 can also be gradually improved, and I suppose SSJ3 too) demonstrate that those guides have the same credibility as the anime filler.

I don't understand.

Krilin got hidden power unlocked but that doesn't mean he couldn't reach that level through training.

Maybe it does, maybe not.

I mean, are you telling me that both Yamcha and Ten-Shin never surpassed those 1500 units they had when fighting against Saibamen?

No. I'm telling you that they never surpassed Kuririn once he has gotten his dormant power released.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Different fusion, different result.

Fusion Dance = A + B
Potarra = A x B

Fusion Dance cannot work like that. Super Gogeta would be the equivilent to SSJ2 Vegeta's power level if that were the case.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Different fusion, different result.

Fusion Dance = A + B
Potarra = A x B

Fusion Dance cannot work like that. Super Gogeta would be the equivilent to SSJ2 Vegeta's power level if that were the case.

And also, Gogeta was stated to be dozens of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta. I think something similar was said about Gotenks as well. So, Fusion is definitely not A + B.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I've read the manga plenty of times, and those guides you're talking about... are the same guides that have been proven wrong? (Radditz 1500, Nappa 4000 etc. etc.)

Nappa's power level can be 4,000 =/. As for Raditz, that could be his full power when he charges an attack so its not really inconsistant. While I might not trust the V-jump power levels seeing as how they gave Popo a power level of 1,030, They aren't 100% wrong.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Different fusion, different result.

Fusion Dance = A + B
Potarra = A x B

Fusion Dance cannot work like that. Super Gogeta would be the equivilent to SSJ2 Vegeta's power level if that were the case.

And also, Gogeta was stated to be dozens of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta. I think something similar was said about Gotenks as well. So, Fusion is definitely not A + B.

May I see where this is stated? I have always wondered where this was stated.

[VegettoEX]

Please stop double-posting. Again, you can quote multiple people in a single post. You just need to type it out yourself.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Please stop double-posting. Again, you can quote multiple people in a single post. You just need to type it out yourself.

k

[hleV]

And also, Gogeta was stated to be dozens of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta. I think something similar was said about Gotenks as well. So, Fusion is definitely not A + B.

May I see where this is stated? I have always wondered where this was stated.

I believe some GT-specific guidebook (Perfect Files?) talks about how SSJ4 Gogeta is tens of times stronger than SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta.

Please stop double-posting. Again, you can quote multiple people in a single post. You just need to type it out yourself.

Perhaps you would consider installing a multi-quote mod?

[freezamite]

I've read the manga plenty of times, and those guides you're talking about... are the same guides that have been proven wrong? (Radditz 1500, Nappa 4000 etc. etc.)

Nothing wrong with those numbers.

Nothing wrong you say? Raditz was nearly killed by Gohan who had a power of only 1300. Nappa was around 3000 (4000 would be too much in my opinion) when he was "mad", but when he calmed himself he was at least at near 8000.
Those numbers are clearly and absolutely wrong no matter how you look at them, they were made by people that didn't even read the manga before writing them and only "remembered" some parts of it.
That's why Nappa has only 4000, because only the first part of the match against Goku was considered, and not the second one were Nappa fought at nearly the same level of Goku.

Firstly, it would look foolish to go SSJ and then revert back; secondly, since Vegetto has the SSJ form mastered, it's not like it bothers him any bit.

Vegetto was a combination of Vegeta and Goku. The first let Cell get his perfect form because he wanted to fight evenly, and the second one even gave him a senzu bean by the same reason.
Vegetto was far better than Bu in SSJ or SSJ2 (don't know at which form he transformed), but the fact that he didn't revert his transformation means that he knew that doing that would have put him below Bu+Gohan.

Yes. But he agreed that it doesn't work and that the real multiplier is 50x.

Man, I've read this interview tons of times and he doesn't say that anywhere. x50 has no sense and seems like a fan who didn't understand the story would say, like Cooler and his 5th form.

I don't understand.

Easy. SSJ is not like a Kaioh Ken x whatever that always multiplies your strength by the same amount. SSJ was like a second "normal" base state that could be trained and perfected in order to become stronger. An untrained SSJ is way below a normal SSJ, and SSJ2 is in fact a perfected SSJ, not a new transformation. The same could be said about SSJ3, in fact.

No. I'm telling you that they never surpassed Kuririn once he has gotten his dormant power released.

We can't know this, and by the way, Krilin also trained a lot after having his power released. Ten Shin could stop 2nd form Cell, we all know he used a special technique in order to do that, but even if he did, he at leas had to be around 100.000 to do what he did.

Nappa's power level can be 4,000 =/. As for Raditz, that could be his full power when he charges an attack so its not really inconsistant. While I might not trust the V-jump power levels seeing as how they gave Popo a power level of 1,030, They aren't 100% wrong.

In no way Nappa could fight evenly against Goku with only 4.000
He must be at least at near 8.000 to do what he did.
About Raditz strength, he was by far the worst fighter in al DBZ history except for Nappa in terms of ki control. He couldn't charge even an attack. The most he could do was to expel ki, but not concentrate it at one point and then release it the "traditional" way.

Regards!

[TheMightyOzaru]

In no way Nappa could fight evenly against Goku with only 4.000
He must be at least at near 8.000 to do what he did.
About Raditz strength, he was by far the worst fighter in al DBZ history except for Nappa in terms of ki control. He couldn't charge even an attack. The most he could do was to expel ki, but not concentrate it at one point and then release it the "traditional" way.

Thats not the case at all. It was pretty obvious Goku was toying with him. If Goku was hit by that Kappa he would have been hurt because he wasn't ready for it. Raditz could probably raise his power level if he tried however I don't trust this level either. I'm not saying I disagreeing with you I'm simply stating these levels are possible and have not been debunked.