Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I remember when people were saying Goku's statement meant Frost was inferior to Freeza. Glad to see that nothing of the sort is implied.

It does imply that. Goku thought Buu would be great for the tournament. Keep in mind that Buu never trains. If Buu would have defeated Frost, it's obvious that FF Frost is way way below RoF FF Frieza.

Frost is above Base Goku, who's above Mr. Boo. He would've got his ass beat by Frost.

[MrBlackFox]

Most annoying thing about Super is, imo, the difference between Goku, Vegeta and the rest of the new characters ( U6 fighters, Whis, Vados and Beerus - Champa ), and the rest of the Z - Team

Dammit, they're just like flyes atm, the god-tier characters may literally incinerate them with a burp

I hope during Super storyline, some power-up will delete that gap

[Lord Beerus]

I remember when people were saying Goku's statement meant Frost was inferior to Freeza. Glad to see that nothing of the sort is implied.

It does imply that. Goku thought Buu would be great for the tournament. Keep in mind that Buu never trains. If Buu would have defeated Frost, it's obvious that FF Frost is way way below RoF FF Frieza.

Frost is above Base Goku, who's above Mr. Boo. He would've got his ass beat by Frost.

I still don't buy Base Goku being above Mr Boo. I just don't think there is enough concrete evidence to support the theory.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What exactly is keeping Mr. Boo so far above them, though? He has no feats. All hype, no substance. Goku was equal to the newly powered-up Freeza, who's power even shocked Goku.

[dbgtFO]

Frost is above Base Goku, who's above Mr. Boo. He would've got his ass beat by Frost.

I still don't buy Base Goku being above Mr Boo. I just don't think there is enough concrete evidence to support the theory.

I think Turlast's point about base Vegeta reaching the level, where he could sense God ki, whereas SS3 Goku couldn't is the most we are going to get on the subject and for my money it sounds pretty solid.
Of course, but I also believe in two base theory.. this arc meshes better with low tier base Goku and base Vegeta, than it does with God tier base Goku and Vegeta.
My gut feeling was right, absorbing the God powers was always going to be a needlessly complicated matter.

[Marlowe89]

Yeah.And Goku saying that he should lay off the Kaio-ken for a while was just TOEI's excuse to remove it.

That's the key thing for me. Toei (and possibly Toriyama) decided to remove it almost as quickly as they reintroduced it, which - combined with the way Beerus and Champa have reacted to it - suggests that it very much had the potential of being a major threat to the Gods of Destruction. The problem for Goku is that he's just not as skilled of a fighter as Beerus, and Kaioken is simply too risky as a combat tactic in general.

Plot-wise it was probably meant as fanservice more than anything.

[Lord Beerus]

What exactly is keeping Mr. Boo so far above them, though? He has no feats. All hype, no substance. Goku was equal to the newly powered-up Freeza, who's power even shocked Goku.

And what feats does Base Goku have that support him being above Majin Boo and essentially being SSJ3 tier in strength? Just Freeza being surprised at much stronger he's gotten? Nah. I'm sorry, but that just ain't enough to folat my boat. I mean, Goku and Vegeta, especially in Vegeta's case, were quite upset over Majin Boo not participating the tournament. Hell, wasn't Majin Boo the first person Goku and Vegeta went to ask to join their team for the tournament? That would indicate me that were really backing Majin Boo to do some damage against the U6 fighters.

And as matter of fact, how strong is Final Form Freeza? Was the ever explicitly addressed? I'm pretty sure they kept his strength pretty vague too.

[Khin]

So where do you put Final Form and First Form Freeza at ? Freeza in his first should be at least stronger than SSJ Gohan who i think reverted back to his Z-Sword self.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And what feats does Base Goku have that support him being above Majin Boo and essentially being SSJ3 tier in strength?

-Completely destroying Beers' attack
-Reaching a level that gave him the ability to gauge God Chi (Super Saiyan 3 Goku can't) just from merging with the God Power
-Being about equal to the newly powered-up Freeza

Just Freeza being surprised at much stronger he's gotten? Nah. I'm sorry, but that just ain't enough to folat my boat. I mean, Goku and Vegeta, especially in Vegeta's case, were quite upset over Majin Boo not participating the tournament. Hell, wasn't Majin Boo the first person Goku and Vegeta went to ask to join their team for the tournament? That would indicate me that were really backing Majin Boo to do some damage against the U6 fighters.

Boo has all types of abilities and doesn't go down easily. Can't they want him on the team for more than just raw power?

And as matter of fact, how strong is Final Form Freeza? Was the ever explicitly addressed? I'm pretty sure they kept his strength pretty vague too.

All we know is he's as strong as a Base Goku that trained under Whis. This version of Goku has eclipsed his previous level of power by a wide margin.

[apex_pretador]

And what feats does Base Goku have that support him being above Majin Boo and essentially being SSJ3 tier in strength? Just Freeza being surprised at much stronger he's gotten? Nah. I'm sorry, but that just ain't enough to folat my boat. I mean, Goku and Vegeta, especially in Vegeta's case, were quite upset over Majin Boo not participating the tournament. Hell, wasn't Majin Boo the first person Goku and Vegeta went to ask to join their team for the tournament? That would indicate me that were really backing Majin Boo to do some damage against the U6 fighters.

And as matter of fact, how strong is Final Form Freeza? Was the ever explicitly addressed? I'm pretty sure they kept his strength pretty vague too.

Ok, feats of base goku has been shown by SSturlast x4

On buu being the first person to be asked - he is the strongest non-fused , non Gohan character besides them.
They have to ask someone and they do.
Then they ask piccolo.
The same piccolo who died against first form freeza.
Does that indicate piccolo >> Final form freeza? No way.

And Remember how kid buu overwhelmed majin buu? Now, imagine buuhan in kid buu's place. He'd one-shot fatbuu. Super vegetto will one-shot 10 buuhans at once.
Super saiyan god is a power where super vegetto is nothing.
Super saiyan blue is far beyond that.

The fact is - they don't need anyone, but remember that numbers matter in tournament. See how U7 finally won due to numbers, even despite monaka being a weakling?


Final form freeza must be strong enough to one-shot 3rd form, who can one-shot 3nd form, who can one-shot 1st form, who can one-shot gohan, who can one-shot Ginyu, who is stronger than tagoma, who can one-shot piccolo, who is way superior to super saiyan kid trunks post rosat.

[Chiki]

I remember when people were saying Goku's statement meant Frost was inferior to Freeza. Glad to see that nothing of the sort is implied.

It does imply that. Goku thought Buu would be great for the tournament. Keep in mind that Buu never trains. If Buu would have defeated Frost, it's obvious that FF Frost is way way below RoF FF Frieza.

Frost is above Base Goku, who's above Mr. Boo. He would've got his ass beat by Frost.

No he wouldn't have, otherwise Buu would have never been hyped up.

Either the two base theory is true or there has been a retcon so that Base Goku is a lot weaker than SSG.

[Lord Beerus]

-Completely destroying Beers' attack
-Reaching a level that gave him the ability to gauge God Chi (Super Saiyan 3 Goku can't) just from merging with the God Power
-Being about equal to the newly powered-up Freeza

Totally forget that happened. Fair point. You got me there. But did Goku ever display the ability to gauge how strong beings are that have Godly ki/power?

Boo has all types of abilities and doesn't go down easily. Can't they want him on the team for more than just raw power?

If that was the case, they would have went to Piccolo straight away. If we're taking raw power out the equation, Piccolo and Majin Boo have practically identically unique abilities and traits. Hell, if Goku and Vegeta weren't first and foremost taking into consideration raw power when picking who was going to be on the team for the tournament then Piccolo should/could/must have been the first person they recruited considering he among the more cunning and strategic combatants in the main cast. And Majin Boo would have never even been considered as he not exactly that smart, as he failed the pre-tournament test in the manga, or reliable, as he fell asleep during the pre-tournament test and also fell asleep during the ROF arc in the anime.

[apex_pretador]

-Completely destroying Beers' attack
-Reaching a level that gave him the ability to gauge God Chi (Super Saiyan 3 Goku can't) just from merging with the God Power
-Being about equal to the newly powered-up Freeza

Totally forget that happened. Fair point. You got me there. But did Goku ever display the ability to gauge how strong beings are that have Godly ki/power?

He did show the ability to sense god ki in base in the episode before going to Zuno.
He was searching for kibitoshin ki in base form

[Alee9977]

So, according to what we saw on the last episode we can say that if Hit and Goku team up they could easily defeat Champa, and if there isn't a big difference between Champa and Beerus, they could defeat Beerus too.

[Lord Beerus]

-Completely destroying Beers' attack
-Reaching a level that gave him the ability to gauge God Chi (Super Saiyan 3 Goku can't) just from merging with the God Power
-Being about equal to the newly powered-up Freeza

Totally forget that happened. Fair point. You got me there. But did Goku ever display the ability to gauge how strong beings are that have Godly ki/power?

He did show the ability to sense god ki in base in the episode before going to Zuno.
He was searching for kibitoshin ki in base form

Does Kibitoshin have Godly ki to even begin with? I mean, if I recall correctly, in the manga Piccolo was able to tell gauge just how much stronger Supreme Kai was in comparison to him.

So, according to what we saw on the last episode we can say that if Hit and Goku team up they could easily defeat Champa, and if there isn't a big difference between Champa and Beerus, they could defeat Beerus too.

No, they couldn't. Champa was ready kill Hit and the rest of the U6 fighters on his own at the same time. And Hit looked like he was ready to shit himself. I don't even think if Goku jumped in it would have made a difference.

[apex_pretador]

Does Kibitoshin have Godly ki to even begin with? I mean, if I recall correctly, in the manga Piccolo was able to tell gauge just how much stronger Supreme Kai was in comparison to him.
.

Piccolo didn't sense kaioshin, no one ever did sense kaioshin.

Minute: 6
Context: After Goku has become Super Saiyan God
Gohan: "I can't sense dad's ki at all."
Whis: "That's fine. After all, the ki a god emits cannot be sensed by ordinary humans."
Gohan: "Then dad really is a..."
Whis: "Yes, Super Saiyan God. I don't know whether he's the same as Beerus-sama or the Kaioshins, but at the very least he's become as much of a god as they are."

Vegeta's comment on kaioshin later when fat buu is formed seems to confirm that no one ever sensed kaoshin

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No he wouldn't have, otherwise Buu would have never been hyped up.

Goku hyped up Boo well before he was aware of Frost's power.

Either the two base theory is true or there has been a retcon so that Base Goku is a lot weaker than SSG.

Base Goku is a lot stronger than Super Saiyan 3, which is obviously way above Mr. Boo. There's no need for a retcon or a two Base theory anymore.

Totally forget that happened. Fair point. You got me there. But did Goku ever display the ability to gauge how strong beings are that have Godly ki/power?

He could sense Beers' power. As for Kibitoshin, he definitely has God Power. Goku was unable to sense him or Kibito at all during the Boo saga. Later when Goku feels Gohan's Chi on the Kaioshin world, he teleports there and is surprised to see Kaioshin and Kibito there. When Kaioshin was about to fight Piccolo, Vegeta said they weren't able to sense his power the entire time. When Kibito was about to fight Gohan, he was judged on his looks instead of power.

If that was the case, they would have went to Piccolo straight away. If we're taking raw power out the equation, Piccolo and Majin Boo have practically identically unique abilities and traits. Hell, if Goku and Vegeta weren't first and foremost taking into consideration raw power when picking who was going to be on the team for the tournament then Piccolo should/could/must have been the first person they recruited considering he among the more cunning and strategic combatants in the main cast. And Majin Boo would have never even been considered as he not exactly that smart, as he failed the pre-tournament test in the manga, or reliable, as he fell asleep during the pre-tournament test and also fell asleep during the ROF arc in the anime.

It could be a combination of things. I wouldn't eliminate his power, but we have to remember that there weren't many other choices. We know the Three Stooges (Krillin, Tien, Yamcha) weren't going to make the team.

[Lord Beerus]

Does Kibitoshin have Godly ki to even begin with? I mean, if I recall correctly, in the manga Piccolo was able to tell gauge just how much stronger Supreme Kai was in comparison to him.
.

Piccolo didn't sense kaioshin, no one ever did sense kaioshin.

Minute: 6
Context: After Goku has become Super Saiyan God
Gohan: "I can't sense dad's ki at all."
Whis: "That's fine. After all, the ki a god emits cannot be sensed by ordinary humans."
Gohan: "Then dad really is a..."
Whis: "Yes, Super Saiyan God. I don't know whether he's the same as Beerus-sama or the Kaioshins, but at the very least he's become as much of a god as they are."

Vegeta's comment on kaioshin later when fat buu is formed seems to confirm that no one ever sensed kaoshin

I wasn't talking about Super, I was talking about the original Dragon Ball manga, and the scene specifically where Supreme Kai and Piccolo go face to face at the WMAT then Piccolo comments that his strength and Kaioshin's strength were dimensions apart and throws the fight.

[Hugo Boss]

And what feats does Base Goku have that support him being above Majin Boo and essentially being SSJ3 tier in strength?

-Completely destroying Beers' attack
-Reaching a level that gave him the ability to gauge God Chi (Super Saiyan 3 Goku can't) just from merging with the God Power
-Being about equal to the newly powered-up Freeza

We could say Goku got stronger in all his forms, though. He can go SS and perhaps even SS2 and SS3. So, being able to feel the ki of gods in his base form doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger in that form than his previous SS3, for example.

[Lord Beerus]

He could sense Beers' power. As for Kibitoshin, he definitely has God Power. Goku was unable to sense him or Kibito at all during the Boo saga. Later when Goku feels Gohan's Chi on the Kaioshin world, he teleports there and is surprised to see Kaioshin and Kibito there. When Kaioshin was about to fight Piccolo, Vegeta said they weren't able to sense his power the entire time. When Kibito was about to fight Gohan, he was judged on his looks instead of power.

You know, now that I think about it, considering Piccolo was able to gauge how strong Kaioshin was when they went face to face in the WMAT, it really now makes it seem to be that the threshold for how strong you need to be to sense Godly power is not that high considering Piccolo was able to pull it off in the original manga.