SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[Kamiccolo9]

He is basically Kid Buu, but what I'm saying is the entry doesn't establish a raise in power before it establishes a drop, so it SEEMS like it is saying (or at least trying to say) that Fat Buu is somewhat weaker than unaltered Kid Buu.

Come to think of it, does it ever say that Fat Buu is weaker than Pure Buu? The Daizenshuu and manga say something about Dai Kaioshin's pure heart calming him, and lowering his power, but, like you said, Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin, not Pure Buu. I'd never considered that before.

Kibito Kai said that absorbing the Dai Kaioshin weakened him AND gave him a heart. And he's definitely referring to unaltered Kid Buu, not Buuoshin. The Dai Kaioshin's bio also said he weakened Buu.

Except it says that the drop in power came when Dai Kaioshin was absorbed. Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin, not the unaltered Pure Buu. And Kibitoshin was aware of Buff Buu as well. As for Dai Kaioshin's bio, he did weaken Buu. But it was Buff Buu, not Pure Buu.

I like this. It fits in perfectly with my theory about Fat Buu having the same amount of power as Super Buu, and Gray Buu being as strong as Pure Buu.

[RandomGuy96]

Except it says that the drop in power came when Dai Kaioshin was absorbed. Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin, not the unaltered Pure Buu. And Kibitoshin was aware of Buff Buu as well. As for Dai Kaioshin's bio, he did weaken Buu. But it was Buff Buu, not Pure Buu.

But it doesn't say that his power rose in the first place.

I like this. It fits in perfectly with my theory about Fat Buu having the same amount of power as Super Buu, and Gray Buu being as strong as Pure Buu.

I have that same chain, but I make a distinction between his USABLE power (which was, at its maximum, a little over twice as strong as SS2 teen Gohan) and his DORMANT power (which he had to be Super Buu to full access, hence the split). Fat Buu always seems to referred to in that context.

I think the meter gives us a decent enough hint to how strong Fat Buu is. He always seemed closer to the SS2 tier than the SS3 tier for me; Piccolo says that it probably wouldn't matter if all three SS2s went at him (if he were SS3-tier, there would be no 'probably'), his power up against Majin Vegeta doesn't seem to be uber haxxed (he's said to get "even stronger", which doesn't imply a multi fold increase), Majin Vegeta was actually able to hurt him, Goku said that he and Vegeta could beat him together as SS2s before the second power up (which, as I said, wasn't implied to be that massive), SS2 Gohan filled up half of the energy meter, SS3 Goku completely outclassed him without trying...

[Kamiccolo9]

Except it says that the drop in power came when Dai Kaioshin was absorbed. Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin, not the unaltered Pure Buu. And Kibitoshin was aware of Buff Buu as well. As for Dai Kaioshin's bio, he did weaken Buu. But it was Buff Buu, not Pure Buu.

But it doesn't say that his power rose in the first place.

I like this. It fits in perfectly with my theory about Fat Buu having the same amount of power as Super Buu, and Gray Buu being as strong as Pure Buu.

I have that same chain, but I make a distinction between his USABLE power (which was, at its maximum, a little over twice as strong as SS2 teen Gohan) and his DORMANT power (which he had to be Super Buu to full access, hence the split).

But the manga does, as you said, half a dozen times.
I make that distinction as well, but the "evidence" I hear most often against it is that Fat Buu is specifically said to be weaker than Pure Buu. Hearing all this, it seems like it isn't said.

[Mjb1985]

Kid Buu and Buff Buu are of the same chain. Buff Buu is essentially like a Super Saiyan Kid Buu.

Fat Buu and Super Buu are completely different beings compared to those two.

[RandomGuy96]

But the manga does, as you said, half a dozen times.
I make that distinction as well, but the "evidence" I hear most often against it is that Fat Buu is specifically said to be weaker than Pure Buu. Hearing all this, it seems like it isn't said.

The Daizenshuu doesn't though. That's what's important in determining what the "somewhat" line is referring to.

Well, the 'evidence' is that Kibito Kai outright says Fat Buu was weaker than Kid Buu.

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

He's talking about Kid Buu here, not Buff Buu.

I don't have any specific logic for how Grand Kaioshin weakened Kid Buu, since the Daiz implies there isn't any, saying his "gentle heart", not his ki, resulted in a decrease of power. I just role with the hints given from the meter, and have SS2 Gohan = 47% of Fat Buu, as well as having Buff Buu be simply Kid Buu + South Kaioshin. I don't think Toriyama intended for us to look at it deeper than that. He just explained away Super Buu's power by just saying that Kid Buu absorbed a strong guy after explicitly establishing Buu's absorptions as additive, and didn't have any character say or imply that SK randomly multiplied Kid Buu. Toriyama's a pretty simply story teller, I'd think he'd have someone mention it. The only multipliers he implied were weird were Gotenks'....

[Mjb1985]

Yea thinking South multiplied Kid is weird. What's more realistic is that Kid took on South's traits of being a burly badass of power and made him however strong he needed to be to suit his story. He didnt sit there doing addition it just ended up that way.

It ends up being multiplication because of Gotenks, but that's beyond the authors comprehension. He's just putting together simple suggestions that end up being terribly put together mathematically. Keeping math out of this stuff is so much better off.

[Kamiccolo9]

But the manga does, as you said, half a dozen times.
I make that distinction as well, but the "evidence" I hear most often against it is that Fat Buu is specifically said to be weaker than Pure Buu. Hearing all this, it seems like it isn't said.

The Daizenshuu doesn't though. That's what's important in determining what the "somewhat" line is referring to.

Well, the 'evidence' is that Kibito Kai outright says Fat Buu was weaker than Kid Buu.

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

He's talking about Kid Buu here, not Buff Buu.

Manga trumps Daizenshuu. We know that Pure Buu powered up after absorbing South Kaioshin. If the Daizenshuu leaves that out, then that's their problem. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
He's talking about the heart there though, not the power. The heart is the subject of that sentence. He's saying that Buu's heart has returned to the way it was, pure evil.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think Toriyama ever really cared about how the characters stacked up each other exactly, and just wanted us to know that Super Buu was stronger than Goku by a lot. But then, this thread is for figuring out how exactly they stack up to each other...

I don't buy the traits theory. Again, it was never mentioned or implied anywhere. Toriyama is not a complicated story teller. When he establishes this system as additive earlier, and explains away Buff Buu's power as "he absorbed someone", then says that someone is the strongest Kaioshin, all without mentioning another kind of system... I think he just intended for SK to be additive. Just my opinion.

I just give Gotenks a different SS3 multiplier. Seems to work out well; Gotenks' multipliers seem weird as hell anyway, though I'm not sure how much of that is gag scenes; Gotenks is basically a gag character, so it's hard to differentiate which scenes should be taken seriously and which ones shouldn't. For example, Krillin and Yamcha thought that base Gotenks would have a chance against Fat Buu; is that legitimate? Does it mean base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta? As another one, SS Gotenks actually landed a hit on Super Buu, giving him a ton of pain, and Super Buu wasn't implied to have powered up later when he fights SS3 Gotenks. Does that mean his SS3 multiplier is only x1.5 or something? Is that legitimate?

Manga trumps Daizenshuu. We know that Pure Buu powered up after absorbing South Kaioshin. If the Daizenshuu leaves that out, then that's their problem. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
He's talking about the heart there though, not the power. The heart is the subject of that sentence. He's saying that Buu's heart has returned to the way it was, pure evil.

The "somewhat" wasn't in the manga. What I'm saying is it's important to establish which Buu they were talking about when they put that line in; the entry seems to be talking about base Kid Buu as they don't establish an increase.

He also said that Buu got weaker from absorbing Grand Kaioshin. It seems pretty sure he's talking about the original Buu and not Buff Buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

Manga trumps Daizenshuu. We know that Pure Buu powered up after absorbing South Kaioshin. If the Daizenshuu leaves that out, then that's their problem. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
He's talking about the heart there though, not the power. The heart is the subject of that sentence. He's saying that Buu's heart has returned to the way it was, pure evil.

The "somewhat" wasn't in the manga. What I'm saying is it's important to establish which Buu they were talking about when they put that line in; the entry seems to be talking about base Kid Buu as they don't establish an increase.

He also said that Buu got weaker from absorbing Grand Kaioshin. It seems pretty sure he's talking about the original Buu and not Buff Buu.

But seeing as we know there was an increase, it would seem the Daizenshuu is in error if it doesn't even mention Buff Buu.
Except Buff Buu was the one to absorb Dai Kaioshin. It wouldn't make sense for him to be talking about Pure Buu absorbing him, because he didn't. And like I said in my last post, that quote from Kaioshin was talking about the heart, not the power. He's saying that Buu's heart has returned to the way it was before he absorbed Dai Kaioshin. Buu was evil before he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, so now, he's returning to being evil again. The mention of power is referring to the initial drop. It doesn't say his power is returning to what it was before; it's saying Buu's heart is.

[mAcChaos]

For example, Krillin and Yamcha thought that base Gotenks would have a chance against Fat Buu; is that legitimate? Does it mean base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta?

Why do you think they think BASE Gotenks has a chance?

I always figured they just know how powerful Goku and Vegeta are at base, and can extrapolate their SSJ powers from there. So if Gotenks has a certain power in base, they can probably guess how strong he would be as Super Saiyan and thus conclude he would have a chance.

[Kamiccolo9]

For example, Krillin and Yamcha thought that base Gotenks would have a chance against Fat Buu; is that legitimate? Does it mean base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta?

Why do you think they think BASE Gotenks has a chance?

I always figured they just know how powerful Goku and Vegeta are at base, and can extrapolate their SSJ powers from there. So if Gotenks has a certain power in base, they can probably guess how strong he would be as Super Saiyan and thus conclude he would have a chance.

Because Gotenks specifically said that his base was enough. And at the time, Piccolo didn't think that Gotenks could use SSJ unless the kids fused as Super Saiyans. Remember how surprised he was when Gotenks went SSJ in the ROSAT without Goten and Trunks fusing as Super Saiyans?

[mAcChaos]

I seem to recall Piccolo thinking they would get destroyed if they didn't use SS though. Krillin and Yamcha didn't really see Buu in action.

[Kamiccolo9]

I seem to recall Piccolo thinking they would get destroyed if they didn't use SS though. Krillin and Yamcha didn't really see Buu in action.

He didn't think Gotenks could use Super Saiyan. That's why he wanted the kids to try fusion again, as Super Saiyans.

[RandomGuy96]

But seeing as we know there was an increase, it would seem the Daizenshuu is in error if it doesn't even mention Buff Buu.
Except Buff Buu was the one to absorb Dai Kaioshin. It wouldn't make sense for him to be talking about Pure Buu absorbing him, because he didn't. And like I said in my last post, that quote from Kaioshin was talking about the heart, not the power. He's saying that Buu's heart has returned to the way it was before he absorbed Dai Kaioshin. Buu was evil before he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, so now, he's returning to being evil again. The mention of power is referring to the initial drop. It doesn't say his power is returning to what it was before; it's saying Buu's heart is.

I still say that it's meant to refer to unaltered Kid Buu. It doesn't mention the increase here, it just says that he got weaker from absorbing Grand Kaioshin. Then again I'm more or less ignoring that cryptic line anyway, so it's a moot point...

My opinion of Fat Buu: I power scale by the meter, as if what Kaboom says is accurate then the meter really is an indicator of his power, as the power seems to be going directly to him (he won't be at full power if he's released without it being full). I go with the following for the three levels of Fatty:

Initial: 50%.
-Considered pretty strong and, judging by everyone's reactions, is probably stronger than Dabura. But Vegeta basically laughs him off and Gohan says that he can do pretty well against him as a SS2.
Power Up 1: 75%.
-Here he becomes much stronger, pwning SS2 Gohan and Dabura effortlessly. Goku and Vegeta consider him much more impressive, yet Goku still says that if they go at him as a team, they'll beat him for sure.
Power Up 2: 100%.
-Now he's now on a new, different level from the SS2s, to the point where Piccolo and Vegeta both say that it probably wouldn't even matter if Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan went at him at the same time. However, he's still clearly no match for SS3 Goku, even though the latter isn't putting out anywhere near full effort.

And then his power basically becomes Super Buu's right before he splits.

This seems to work out well with that's shown and looks nice and neat. For example, by my numbers:

SS2 Gohan- 6,100,000,000
SS2 Goku- 8,100,000,000
SS2 Majin Vegeta- 8,400,000,000

Fat Buu-
--Initial- 6,500,000,000
--Power Up 1- 9,750,000,000
--Power Up 2- 13,000,000,000

[Kamiccolo9]

We pretty much agree with the numbers, so I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about.
What I'm saying is that Fat Buu's max power (which equals Super Buu's) is less than Buff Buu's. They power was lower than Buff Buu, but, in total, was still higher than Pure Buu's. I'm not saying that Fat Buu>Pure Buu all throughout the arc or anything. Just that his full power>Pure Buu's, which doesn't contradict anything that's said.

[Mjb1985]

I don't agree with their being different multipliers for Gotenks. The official multipliers don't say hey these are the boosts except for this guy.

1) Kaioshin ki cannot be used for Buu's resurrection unlike others.
2) Kaioshin absorption leads to drastic changes in Buu's body unlike others.

To me, it's pretty clear that Kaioshin absorption is not the same as Buu absorbing other being. Kaioshins for some reason drastically effect Buu. I think it's clear addition makes sense for everyone else, just not the Kaioshins.

[RandomGuy96]

We pretty much agree with the numbers, so I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about.
What I'm saying is that Fat Buu's max power (which equals Super Buu's) is less than Buff Buu's. They power was lower than Buff Buu, but, in total, was still higher than Pure Buu's. I'm not saying that Fat Buu>Pure Buu all throughout the arc or anything. Just that his full power>Pure Buu's, which doesn't contradict anything that's said.

Oh, okay. I was misunderstanding you. But yeah I agree with that; I go with Evil Buu + Good Buu = Super Buu = Fully Enraged Fat Buu. That's a nice way to interpret that Daizenshuu line.

So do you agree that Fat Buu was only around twice as strong as SS2 Gohan and at 50/75/100 percent power in those instances, or do you have another view on Fat Buu's usable power?

[Kamiccolo9]

We pretty much agree with the numbers, so I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about.
What I'm saying is that Fat Buu's max power (which equals Super Buu's) is less than Buff Buu's. They power was lower than Buff Buu, but, in total, was still higher than Pure Buu's. I'm not saying that Fat Buu>Pure Buu all throughout the arc or anything. Just that his full power>Pure Buu's, which doesn't contradict anything that's said.

Oh, okay. I was misunderstanding you. But yeah I agree with that; I go with Evil Buu + Good Buu = Super Buu = Fully Enraged Fat Buu.

So do you agree that Fat Buu was only around twice as strong as SS2 Gohan and at 50/75/100 percent power in those instances, or do you have another view on Fat Buu's usable power?

Yeah, that's how I see it. I also have Gray Buu exactly equal to Pure Buu, while, IIRC, you have him stronger, but I believe I already gave you my reason why in another thread.
That works for me. He didn't seem to power up against Goku, so he should have been at the same level he was at the end of the Vegeta fight. Then he spikes right before he splits.

[RandomGuy96]

I have Pure Buu and Pure Evil Buu as exact equals now, due to my theory that Good Buu and Mr. Buu aren't the same. The Kaioshin power that fused with Kid Buu's essence to form Evil Buu didn't hinder him, but it also didn't help, hence why some Kaioshin power is still unusable inside Super Buu (remember, Buff > Super). Unlike the rest of the Kaioshin power (i.e. Good Buu) that bit of power could only be used by Mr. Buu, who took it after the split (along with the rest of the Kaioshin power) due to an automatic rearrangement of Buu's body, leaving nothing but Kid Buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

I have Pure Buu and Pure Evil Buu as exact equals now, due to my theory that Good Buu and Mr. Buu aren't the same. The Kaioshin power that fused with Kid Buu's essence to form Evil Buu didn't hinder him, but it also didn't help, hence why some Kaioshin power is still unusable inside Super Buu (remember, Buff > Super). Unlike the reat of the Kaioshin power (i.e. Good Buu) that bit of power could only be used by Mr. Buu, who took it after the split due to an automatic rearrangement of Buu's body, leaving nothing but Kid Buu.

I don't think there's a difference between Good and Mr. Buu. Basically, how I have it is
Pure Buu-12
Buff Buu-20
Fat Buu-Grows stronger as he gets angrier. Max is 17.
Mr. Buu-11
Gray Buu-12
Super Buu-17
South Kaioshin-8
Dai Kaioshin-3
Works for me, more or less. Like I've said before in other threads, I don't put much stock in consistent power gaps. We've seen complete and utter stomps with minor gaps before. Mr. Buu was still in Fat Buu's unstable mindset when Gray Buu appeared. We see in the Vegeta-Dodoria fight that when one is panicked, he can't fight very well, even with a small gap. Same with Mr. Buu against Pure Buu. He had just been eaten, ripped loose from his host, thrown up due to an emotional conflict, and woke up in the middle of a fight. What's more, he was fighting a guy who was not only stronger, but crazy, unpredictable, and capable of regenerating from everything Mr. Buu could throw at him. And he still managed to put up a decent fight. Thus the small gap.