New Animation VS Old Animation

[HybridSaiyan]

If you want to see some perfectly drawn Z stills then here, have them cause I don't see Super ever rising up to this quality.

Spoiler:

Those are great. The people saying super is on par with Z are crazy! They take the worst from 293 episodes that are over 2 decades old and use that as reasons why super is good. Super is entertaining but all the colors are bad,at least the old animation doesn't have digital coloring. I'd take the worst of Z>the best of super.

I'm with you on that all the way.

[Doctor.]

How about these ones then? ~

Spoiler:

Sure, some of those are great. But Super has some great ones too, so far.

Spoiler:

And this is without getting into the BoG and F stuff, and with 4 episodes of slice-of-life opposed to 4 episodes of fighting. No doubt we're gonna get more impressive stuff in the future.

[Lord Beerus]

Will we ever see anything as fluid as this?

We actually have.

Even in Super's OP.

Or as intense or gruesome as these?

BOG provided that.

[HybridSaiyan]

How about these ones then? ~

Spoiler:

Sure, some of those are great. But Super has some great ones too, so far.

Spoiler:

And this is without getting into the BoG and F stuff, and with 4 episodes of slice-of-life opposed to 4 episodes of fighting. No doubt we're gonna get more impressive stuff in the future.

But the thing is, can they offer that type of performance during battle scenes ? So far they haven't. The punches, kicks and blasts don't feel impactful like they did in the past. It was like you could actually feel the collision. Now to me, it just feels rushed and dull. I don't know man..this is just me. I prefer the Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz fight over all of Super so far..

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I think it's clear if you look at it in a none biased way. Super is being half assed by Toriyama and Toei. We all wanted a new dragonball TV show, I think we just need to enjoy it or what it is. A very very very very very very very flawed series. I'm sure along the way we'll get some gems, but don't expect any good art or constancies. Toei abandoned that just like Toriyama.

[jjgp1112]

I love how nostalgia has apparently turned the series that was always the poster child for wildly inconsistent animation into something that was an endless supply of glorious composition, used to besmirch the name of a show that isn't even 10 episodes old.

It goes back to my other point: when you put the VERY BEST Dragon Ball/Z animation against an average shot from Super, of course Super's going to look worse. You guys are using inherently flawed, faulty means of arguing.

[Sayo-chan]

Will we ever see anything as fluid as this?

We actually have.

Even in Super's OP.

Or as intense or gruesome as these?

BOG provided that.

That Goku fighting Beerus looks terrible. I posted that gif earlier, or one just like it, pointing out how the animation was good but the art was trash. The aura one isn't impressive at all. I like the Vegeta one though.

I love how nostalgia has apparently turned the series that was always the poster child for wildly inconsistent animation into something that was an endless supply of glorious composition, used to besmirch the name of a show that isn't even 10 episodes old.

It goes back to my other point: when you put the VERY BEST Dragon Ball/Z animation against an average shot from Super, of course Super's going to look worse. You guys are using inherently flawed, faulty means of arguing.

Or you could not generalize us like that.

I posted various high quality gifs comparing animation and art, it's not nostalgia, it's just the lack of good direction. Even the triangle episode with Freeza and Trunks has fluid animation, similar to the Goku VS. Beerus gif, granted not of that quality, but decent nonetheless. I've gone through this entire thread and no, we haven't been showing the best of Z, or even close (minus a few tidbits from Goku VS. Cell).

[MrWalnut4]

I love how nostalgia has apparently turned the series that was always the poster child for wildly inconsistent animation into something that was an endless supply of glorious composition, used to besmirch the name of a show that isn't even 10 episodes old.

It goes back to my other point: when you put the VERY BEST Dragon Ball/Z animation against an average shot from Super, of course Super's going to look worse. You guys are using inherently flawed, faulty means of arguing.

Or you could not generalize us like that.

I posted various high quality gifs comparing animation and art, it's not nostalgia, it's just the lack of good direction. Even the triangle episode with Freeza and Trunks has fluid animation, similar to the Goku VS. Beerus gif, granted not of that quality, but decent nonetheless.

I'm not sure that you're listening to what he's saying. These aren't apples to apples comparisons between Super and DBZ. We simply don't have the volume of content with Super to compare to Z yet, and even so people are actively finding what is seemingly damning animation in Super and comparing it to what is the best of Z.




I could also make the argument that Super's animation is leaps and bounds better than Z if I compared this shot of Z to this shot of Super.




These aren't fair comparisons and we need to stop pretending they are.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I love how nostalgia has apparently turned the series that was always the poster child for wildly inconsistent animation into something that was an endless supply of glorious composition, used to besmirch the name of a show that isn't even 10 episodes old.

It goes back to my other point: when you put the VERY BEST Dragon Ball/Z animation against an average shot from Super, of course Super's going to look worse. You guys are using inherently flawed, faulty means of arguing.

Or you could not generalize us like that.

I posted various high quality gifs comparing animation and art, it's not nostalgia, it's just the lack of good direction. Even the triangle episode with Freeza and Trunks has fluid animation, similar to the Goku VS. Beerus gif, granted not of that quality, but decent nonetheless.

I'm not sure that you're listening to what he's saying. These aren't apples to apples comparisons between Super and DBZ. We simply don't have the volume of content with Super to compare to Z yet, and even so people are actively finding what is seemingly damning animation in Super and comparing it to what is the best of Z.



I could make the argument that Super's animation is leaps and bounds better than Z if I compared this shot of GT to this shot of Super.




It isn't a fair comparison and we need to stop pretending that is because of bias against modern animation.

It's funny because that GT shot is a septillion times better then the overly bright slimmy looking super shot. It isn't bias,it's bias against CHEAP and LAZY digital animation. There's a difference between using this inferior animation to save money and what super is,which is Mr Krabs level penny pinching.

[Sayo-chan]

I'm not sure that you're listening to what he's saying. These aren't apples to apples comparisons between Super and DBZ. We simply don't have the volume of content with Super to compare to Z yet, and even so people are actively finding what is seemingly damning animation in Super and comparing it to what is the best of Z.



I could make the argument that Super's animation is leaps and bounds better than Z if I compared this shot of GT to this shot of Super.




It isn't a fair comparison and we need to stop pretending that is because of bias against modern animation.

I understand completely. You're grasping straws here. This thread is about comparing new animation and old animation, not just Super. New animation is pretty much everything from 2007 onward? I've looked at the good, the bad and the ugly, mainly of Z. I've compared it to a lesser extent to the recent movies. This isn't about volume consistency, so let's not digress this thread in that direction. It's about what we have, and that's really it. As I've stated enough times already, it's not modern animation's fault, it's the direction of the animation. Even the recent Cobra series was better looking than everything Dragon Ball's dished out in the past 10 years.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Gotta agree with sayo-chan. Modern animation is FACTUALLY inferior to hand drawn animation, that's obvious. But it CAN be good. Toei's lack of fucks to give about animating dragonbal for the last 10 years. They don't understand you gotta spend money to make money. High school dxd proves modern animation can make beautiful artwork,but dragonball in toei's digital coloring is WAY to bright and slimmy looking. The colors is the worst part.

[bleed0range]

So I usually wait until a sub is out to watch Super, but considering that everyone is talking about how terrible the animation is I checked it out early and good god. It looks like Ebisawa snuck his way into Super with his triangle crap again. Hands down the worst animation I have seen come out of modern Dragon Ball. Although, there were several scenes where we got some surprisingly good animation; mostly the close ups of characters faces. Unfortunately, episode six looks like it's going to be the same story as this week's episode. Also, in several of the scenes of Goku meeting Beerus, the story board is almost exactly the same such as BOG.







They are telling the same story the same way as BOG with only a couple scenes with different angles as the original (minus the Goku vs Beerus fight). Even if the camera angle and placement of characters are sometimes different, they are still following BOG to a T. They even copied subtleties like Goku waving his hand back and forth when asked about SSJG or grimacing exactly the same way as BOG after being hit by Kaio. They could have told the story a little differently like how Bulma's party is now on a cruise ship instead of at her house, but they chose not to for whatever reason.

I think they're actually following the original storyboards from BOG for some of this stuff which is why it looks so close.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

So I usually wait until a sub is out to watch Super, but considering that everyone is talking about how terrible the animation is I checked it out early and good god. It looks like Ebisawa snuck his way into Super with his triangle crap again. Hands down the worst animation I have seen come out of modern Dragon Ball. Although, there were several scenes where we got some surprisingly good animation; mostly the close ups of characters faces. Unfortunately, episode six looks like it's going to be the same story as this week's episode. Also, in several of the scenes of Goku meeting Beerus, the story board is almost exactly the same such as BOG.







They are telling the same story the same way as BOG with only a couple scenes with different angles as the original (minus the Goku vs Beerus fight). Even if the camera angle and placement of characters are sometimes different, they are still following BOG to a T. They even copied subtleties like Goku waving his hand back and forth when asked about SSJG or grimacing exactly the same way as BOG after being hit by Kaio. They could have told the story a little differently like how Bulma's party is now on a cruise ship instead of at her house, but they chose not to for whatever reason.

I think they're actually following the original storyboards from BOG for some of this stuff which is why it looks so close.

For this comparison,each time I go with super. Super has bette coloring then Battle of Gods.

[MrWalnut4]

I understand completely. You're grasping straws here. This thread is about comparing new animation and old animation, not just Super. New animation is pretty much everything from 2007 onward? I've looked at the good, the bad and the ugly, mainly of Z. I've compared it to a lesser extent to the recent movies. This isn't about volume consistency, so let's not digress this thread in that direction. It's about what we have, and that's really it. As I've stated enough times already, it's not modern animation's fault, it's the direction of the animation. Even the recent Cobra series was better looking than everything Dragon Ball's dished out in the past 10 years.

Isn't it thought? It's seemingly so much easier to find good to excellent animation from Z when compared to modern animation. I think this is partly because of the talent working on modern animation, but also the amount of it. There are some excellent shots from the new movies as well as Super, but seemingly not as many as in Z. I think the ratios of excellent animation to average/poor animation are slightly lower in modern animation than Z, but still similar. But, the ratios of poor animation to average/excellent animation are much lower than they were in Z.

By the way, I agree on the direction of animation being the problem. I'm simply using the word animation to encompass character models, style, direction and fluidity of movement.

Gotta agree with sayo-chan. Modern animation is FACTUALLY inferior to hand drawn animation, that's obvious. But it CAN be good. Toei's lack of fucks to give about animating dragonbal for the last 10 years. They don't understand you gotta spend money to make money. High school dxd proves modern animation can make beautiful artwork,but dragonball in toei's digital coloring is WAY to bright and slimmy looking. The colors is the worst part.

No, digital animation is not FACTUALLY inferior to hand-drawn animation because it still IS hand-drawn animation. You are entitled to not like the shading of modern Dragon Ball but please don't make opinionated statements like they are fact.

[Sayo-chan]

I understand completely. You're grasping straws here. This thread is about comparing new animation and old animation, not just Super. New animation is pretty much everything from 2007 onward? I've looked at the good, the bad and the ugly, mainly of Z. I've compared it to a lesser extent to the recent movies. This isn't about volume consistency, so let's not digress this thread in that direction. It's about what we have, and that's really it. As I've stated enough times already, it's not modern animation's fault, it's the direction of the animation. Even the recent Cobra series was better looking than everything Dragon Ball's dished out in the past 10 years.

Isn't it thought? It's seemingly so much easier to find good to excellent animation from Z when compared to modern animation. I think this is partly because of the talent working on modern animation, but also the amount of it. There are some excellent shots from the new movies as well as Super, but seemingly not as many as in Z. I think the ratios of excellent animation to average/poor animation are slightly lower in modern animation than Z, but still similar. But, the ratios of poor animation to average/excellent animation are much lower than they were in Z.

By the way, I agree on the direction of animation being the problem. I'm simply using the word animation to encompass character models, style, direction and fluidity of movement.

I wouldn't say seemingly. It's easier to find both good and bad patches in Z... as I demonstrated a few pages ago. The bad patches in Z typically have redeemable qualities based on the trend I found, whereas the bad pieces in the new animation really didn't. The problem with the really good animation we see in the new Dragon Ball material is that it typically has really bad artwork, this has been a problem since Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!. Ultimate Tenkaichi though, somehow seemed to break this trend. I would imagine it's because of Yamamuro's absence, or lack of influence rather. If I'm not mistaken, the shift from traditional to digital animation happened somewhere in the Boo saga, yet there's some really great episodes there. I don't have a problem with computer animation in the slightest, why would I? I draw on a Cintiq. That's my issue with being generalized.

Look at Cowboy Bebop, it's a more coherent series in terms of artistic structure, as well as the Big O. There's really no excuse beyond "we're cheap and lazy" not to have better products. That Bardock special for example, had some of the most hideous art I've ever seen, but also some of the most fluid animation in the past 10 years. It really isn't that difficult to draw characters the way they're supposed to be drawn, y'know, anatomically correct. It's not something that should be defended in the slightest, and I certainly do not when I see it in Z.

[MrWalnut4]

I wouldn't say seemingly. It's easier to find both good and bad patches in Z... as I demonstrated a few pages ago. The bad patches in Z typically have redeemable qualities based on the trend I found, whereas the bad pieces in the new animation really didn't. The problem with the really good animation we see in the new Dragon Ball material is that it typically has really bad artwork, this has been a problem since Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!. Ultimate Tenkaichi though, somehow seemed to break this trend. I would imagine it's because of Yamamuro's absence, or lack of influence rather. If I'm not mistaken, the shift from traditional to digital animation happened somewhere in the Boo saga, yet there's some really great episodes there. I don't have a problem with computer animation in the slightest, why would I? I draw on a Cintiq. That's my issue with being generalized.

Look at Cowboy Bebop, it's a more coherent series in terms of artistic structure, as well as the Big O. There's really no excuse beyond "we're cheap and lazy" not to have better products. That Bardock special for example, had some of the most hideous art I've ever seen, but also some of the most fluid animation in the past 10 years. It really isn't that difficult to draw characters the way they're supposed to be drawn, y'know, anatomically correct. It's not something that should be defended in the slightest, and I certainly do not when I see it in Z.

I don't think Dragon Ball entered digital animation until well after both Z and GT finished airing. I agree with you mostly, but from what I've read from people in the anime industry is that it isn't because Toei is cheap and lazy. They are, but that isn't the issue. The reason we get animation not as good as we once did is a combination of multiple factors: bad character models from Yamamuro that are extremely unfriendly for key animators to work with, a lack of talented animators that are available to work on Dragon Ball, and poor planing and management not allowing enough time for animators to do a good job and causing rushed art (extremely noticeable in episode 5 of Super). There are probably other factors that I am not aware of that happen behind the scenes, but while Toei is to blame for a lot of modern Dragon Ball's issues, it isn't entirely their fault.

[Sayo-chan]

I wouldn't say seemingly. It's easier to find both good and bad patches in Z... as I demonstrated a few pages ago. The bad patches in Z typically have redeemable qualities based on the trend I found, whereas the bad pieces in the new animation really didn't. The problem with the really good animation we see in the new Dragon Ball material is that it typically has really bad artwork, this has been a problem since Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!. Ultimate Tenkaichi though, somehow seemed to break this trend. I would imagine it's because of Yamamuro's absence, or lack of influence rather. If I'm not mistaken, the shift from traditional to digital animation happened somewhere in the Boo saga, yet there's some really great episodes there. I don't have a problem with computer animation in the slightest, why would I? I draw on a Cintiq. That's my issue with being generalized.

Look at Cowboy Bebop, it's a more coherent series in terms of artistic structure, as well as the Big O. There's really no excuse beyond "we're cheap and lazy" not to have better products. That Bardock special for example, had some of the most hideous art I've ever seen, but also some of the most fluid animation in the past 10 years. It really isn't that difficult to draw characters the way they're supposed to be drawn, y'know, anatomically correct. It's not something that should be defended in the slightest, and I certainly do not when I see it in Z.

I don't think Dragon Ball entered digital animation until well after both Z and GT finished airing. I agree with you mostly, but from what I've read from people in the anime industry is that it isn't because Toei is cheap and lazy. They are, but that isn't the issue. The reason we get animation not as good as we once did is a combination of multiple factors: bad character models from Yamamuro that are extremely unfriendly for key animators to work with, a lack of talented animators that are available to work on Dragon Ball, and poor planing and management not allowing enough time for animators to do a good job and causing rushed art (extremely noticeable in episode 5 of Super). There are probably other factors that I am not aware of that happen behind the scenes, but while Toei is to blame for a lot of modern Dragon Ball's issues, it isn't entirely their fault.

I'm not sure where I recalled that, but I double checked. Toei first started using digital animation in 1998, which is odd, because I really thought it was during the Boo arc. It might've been something I read on the wikia years ago and forgot that's where I read it. Anyway, doesn't Toei have the authority to tell Yamamuro to fuck off? Subsequently making it their fault?

[Zenkai]

Taking in-between shots that are on-screen for less than half a second and using them to judge the overall quality of Super's animation. Seems legit.....(not).

[JulieYBM]

P.S: Do you know what studio animated this episode? I'm so interested in seeing some of their work.

G&G Direction and Toei Animation Philippines. TAP also did in-between animation Freelance animator Ootsuka Ken also worked on the episode. The animation supervisor was Tate Naoki, one of the main animators from the old Seigasha episodes. Tate is now an employee of Toei Animation. The chief animation supervisor was Ide Takeo, another veteran of the series.

I wouldn't say seemingly. It's easier to find both good and bad patches in Z... as I demonstrated a few pages ago. The bad patches in Z typically have redeemable qualities based on the trend I found, whereas the bad pieces in the new animation really didn't. The problem with the really good animation we see in the new Dragon Ball material is that it typically has really bad artwork, this has been a problem since Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!. Ultimate Tenkaichi though, somehow seemed to break this trend. I would imagine it's because of Yamamuro's absence, or lack of influence rather. If I'm not mistaken, the shift from traditional to digital animation happened somewhere in the Boo saga, yet there's some really great episodes there. I don't have a problem with computer animation in the slightest, why would I? I draw on a Cintiq. That's my issue with being generalized.

Look at Cowboy Bebop, it's a more coherent series in terms of artistic structure, as well as the Big O. There's really no excuse beyond "we're cheap and lazy" not to have better products. That Bardock special for example, had some of the most hideous art I've ever seen, but also some of the most fluid animation in the past 10 years. It really isn't that difficult to draw characters the way they're supposed to be drawn, y'know, anatomically correct. It's not something that should be defended in the slightest, and I certainly do not when I see it in Z.

Toei Animation first began using digital animation with the 1997 Dr. Slump cartoon.

Digital coloring now is nothing like it was ten and fifteen years ago. If you guys want to talk about digital coloring and post-processing you're going to have to watch some other series, because Dragon Ball Super is nowhere near the epitome of its execution.

[Sayo-chan]

P.S: Do you know what studio animated this episode? I'm so interested in seeing some of their work.

G&G Direction and Toei Animation Philippines. TAP also did in-between animation Freelance animator Ootsuka Ken also worked on the episode. The animation supervisor was Tate Naoki, one of the main animators from the old Seigasha episodes. Tate is now an employee of Toei Animation. The chief animation supervisor was Ide Takeo, another veteran of the series.

I wouldn't say seemingly. It's easier to find both good and bad patches in Z... as I demonstrated a few pages ago. The bad patches in Z typically have redeemable qualities based on the trend I found, whereas the bad pieces in the new animation really didn't. The problem with the really good animation we see in the new Dragon Ball material is that it typically has really bad artwork, this has been a problem since Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!. Ultimate Tenkaichi though, somehow seemed to break this trend. I would imagine it's because of Yamamuro's absence, or lack of influence rather. If I'm not mistaken, the shift from traditional to digital animation happened somewhere in the Boo saga, yet there's some really great episodes there. I don't have a problem with computer animation in the slightest, why would I? I draw on a Cintiq. That's my issue with being generalized.

Look at Cowboy Bebop, it's a more coherent series in terms of artistic structure, as well as the Big O. There's really no excuse beyond "we're cheap and lazy" not to have better products. That Bardock special for example, had some of the most hideous art I've ever seen, but also some of the most fluid animation in the past 10 years. It really isn't that difficult to draw characters the way they're supposed to be drawn, y'know, anatomically correct. It's not something that should be defended in the slightest, and I certainly do not when I see it in Z.

Toei Animation first began using digital animation with the 1997 Dr. Slump cartoon.

Digital coloring now is nothing like it was ten and fifteen years ago. If you guys want to talk about digital coloring and post-processing you're going to have to watch some other series, because Dragon Ball Super is nowhere near the epitome of its execution.

Do you have a citation for that? Because according to this, directly from Toei:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/video/300/
It was in 1998 with GeGeGe no Kikaro's 4th series.

Did anyone here state it was anywhere near the epitome of anything? Why are you even saying that?