Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[RandomGuy96]

I've never seen people do it all the time in a serious conflict. Buu was outright trying to kill Vegeta because he pissed him off.

The only time Pure Buu shows effort is against the Genki Dama. Goku admits he can't beat Pure Buu without a Chi attacked.

Buu wrapped Vegeta in stomach fat and sat on him. He obviously wasn't taking that idiot seriously.

Flat-out bullshit, he shows effort against Goku and Mr. Buu. Also this doesn't relate to whether or not he's impervious to physical attacks. Seeing as how all the Buus get hurt, stunned, and even bloodied all the time when hit by someone decently close to or beyond their level, he's clearly not.

[h0kuten]

Really? That is one of Buu's most serious attacks and Buutenks gave Gohan an enormous amount of trouble with it. I've also got the Gohan/Buutenks gap smaller than the Vegeta/Fat Buu gap; hence why Gohan could escape but Vegeta couldn't:

Spoiler:

Fat Buu 150
Majin Vegeta 100
Teen Gohan 60

Buutenks 1,500
Ultimate Gohan 1,200
Gotenks Ssj3 800
Super Buu 640

Please revise the Manga scans where Buu is showing his veins popping out against the Genki Dama. Pure Buu was neither hurt, stunned or bloodied from a physical attack. The gap is too close for Goku to beat him that way.

[Darkprince410]

Really? That is one of Buu's most serious attacks and Buutenks gave Gohan an enormous amount of trouble with it. I've also got the Gohan/Buutenks gap smaller than the Vegeta/Fat Buu gap; hence why Gohan could escape but Vegeta couldn't:

Gotenks Buu wrapped Gohan up with Galactica Doughnuts, not tearing a piece of himself off and wrapping Gohan up with it.

Spoiler:

Please revise the Manga scans where Buu is showing his veins popping out against the Genki Dama. Pure Buu was neither hurt, stunned or bloodied from a physical attack. The gap is too close for Goku to beat him that way.

You can see throughout most all his fight with Goku though that he's got a very stern, angry look on his face, expressing either annoyance or straight up determination in battling him, which we don't see when he fights Vegeta. All that the veins popping out shows is that he was being completely overwhelmed by the attack, which doesn't in any way mean that he wasn't taking damage from Goku's blows. It's just that Buu was able to regenerate back from them.

[RandomGuy96]

Really? That is one of Buu's most serious attacks and Buutenks gave Gohan an enormous amount of trouble with it. I've also got the Gohan/Buutenks gap smaller than the Vegeta/Fat Buu gap; hence why Gohan could escape but Vegeta couldn't:

Spoiler:

Fat Buu 150
Majin Vegeta 100
Teen Gohan 60

Buutenks 1,500
Ultimate Gohan 1,200
Gotenks Ssj3 800
Super Buu 640

Please revise the Manga scans where Buu is showing his veins popping out against the Genki Dama.

Buutenks used Gotenks' energy rings technique, he didn't wrap a piece of himself around Gohan. He also followed it up with a Kamehameha, rather than smashing Gohan with his fat ass like Fat Buu did to Gohan. Though maybe that's just because the attack wouldn't be as effective, as Super Buu seems to be in good shape.

Pure Buu was neither hurt, stunned or bloodied from a physical attack.

So what's this then?

Or this?

Or this?


Still waiting for proof on your claims that Buu is impervious to physical attacks. Also, why are you even bringing up Pure Buu? We were talking about Fat Buu's supposed invulnerability vs physical attacks. Which then changed to Fat Buu being invulnerable to physical attacks from anyone even a tiny bit weaker than him, which then changed to Pure Buu being impervious to physical attacks with no mention of Fat Buu.

[dbgtFO]

I always took Vegeta vs Fat Buu, as Fat Buu either humoring Vegeta's little outburst, before being genuinely shocked by the "Atomic Blast" or being too slow to keep up, but still too strong for Vegeta's hits to actually matter.
Fat Buu's expression, when he was being pummeled was one of indifference, rather than one of shock, fear or anger.
Still the fight could have been better, if Vegeta was allowed not to be a moron and try to tank an attack he clearly was dreading way before it was actually unleashed.

[Taskmaster]

Oh boy, here we go again.

There were a few instances where Goku specifically talked about beating Buu -

Goku states that he could have "beaten" the Fat Buu when he met him
Vegeta states that Goku can "obliterate" Buu if he charges up his power
Goku states that Vegetto could do it.

When Goku brings up brings up Gohan and Gotenks, he doesn't use the word Beat he uses the word "fight"

Goku's face on the panel talking about bringing the boys isn't a look of hope/wonder or amazement at the idea. We are actually told specifically in the story that 1. Buu would have killed everyone if they didn't stop him with the spirit bomb. 2. that if Buu were to return, he would kill everyone, so Goku says he will train to beat him.

PS: Daizenshuu 7 says that Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu.

You sure about that?

Second

There's also the matter of Goku and Buu's fight. It was impossible for Goku to be actively suppressing his power (he couldn't even do that in SS1 until he mastered it, and SS3 is explicitly called unstable), yet he wasn't in a different dimension from Buu.

Isn't true in the slightest. Goten and Trunks haven't mastered SSJ, yet can suppress their power, Gohan hasn't mastered SSJ2 and can do the same, as can Goku.
Goku's admission to Vegeta only furthers that concept.

[RandomGuy96]

Oh boy, here we go again.

There were a few instances where Goku specifically talked about beating Buu -

Goku states that he could have "beaten" the Fat Buu when he met him
Vegeta states that Goku can "obliterate" Buu if he charges up his power
Goku states that Vegetto could do it.

When Goku brings up brings up Gohan and Gotenks, he doesn't use the word Beat he uses the word "fight"

Goku's face on the panel talking about bringing the boys isn't a look of hope/wonder or amazement at the idea. We are actually told specifically in the story that 1. Buu would have killed everyone if they didn't stop him with the spirit bomb. 2. that if Buu were to return, he would kill everyone, so Goku says he will train to beat him.

PS: Daizenshuu 7 says that Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu.

You sure about that?

Second

There's also the matter of Goku and Buu's fight. It was impossible for Goku to be actively suppressing his power (he couldn't even do that in SS1 until he mastered it, and SS3 is explicitly called unstable), yet he wasn't in a different dimension from Buu.

Isn't true in the slightest. Goten and Trunks haven't mastered SSJ, yet can suppress their power, Gohan hasn't mastered SSJ2 and can do the same, as can Goku.
Goku's admission to Vegeta only furthers that concept.

And Goku states that he can't beat Super Buu, while also saying that he can beat Pure Buu. Funny that you ignored that fourth instance where he talks about beating Buu. And the fifth instance, where he says Gotenks can beat Fat Buu with iron certainty, to the point that he tells Piccolo not to throw them in the ROSAT, because that should only be used for real threats. His words, not mine. Also, "fight" has been used in such contexts as "Vegeta will fight Pure Buu" or "I, Piccolo, will fight Super Buu". "Fight" just means any violent struggle, even if it's extremely short and one sided.

Yes. It's in Buu's D7 bio.

Nope. They have mastered SS, which is why they can suppress it. No one ever outright suppressed SS2.

[Darkprince410]

When Goku brings up brings up Gohan and Gotenks, he doesn't use the word Beat he uses the word "fight"

For starters, the whole point of his and Vegeta's conversation was that they were coming up with a way to beat Buu, so defeating Buu was already the goal of their strategy planning. Second, why would Goku assume that's Vegeta's plan (and jump to that being the first idea he had on the matter) if he didn't believe they were able to beat Buu? The fact that he jumped to that first and foremost, even over something like having Polunga restore his health or something along those lines, points to them being the best chance against Buu.

1. Buu would have killed everyone if they didn't stop him with the spirit bomb. 2. that if Buu were to return, he would kill everyone, so Goku says he will train to beat him.

1) No, it's never stated or indicated that the Genki Dama was their only hope.

2) Vegeta comments that if Buu were to ever pop back up again, that the Earth really may be doomed that time. Nothing is specified as to what actions he'd do or that he'd be stronger than everyone else or anything remotely like that, simply that Earth might really be doomed next time. As such, for all we know (and given what's shown in the manga, his attitude supports this) Buu may emerge and immediately go and destroy the planet itself before any of the Z Senshi could get there to stop him. And if that happened while everyone else was on the planet, that'd leave everyone capable of fighting Buu dead, and thus no way of defeating him.

Likewise, Goku specifically says that the worst case scenario would be he and Vegeta fighting Buu again, and proposes that they train in case that scenario comes to pass. So Goku's statement basically could come down to "If, for some reason, Gohan and Gotenks aren't able to come and beat him in time, but we're around, let's make sure we're strong enough to be able to find him, even on our own." The whole reason he brings up that they'll just fight if it comes down to a worse case scenario means that he assumes that other events will come into play first that'll stop Buu, but should they not, then he and Vegeta should make themselves ready in case they need to step in.

[Taskmaster]

Oh boy, here we go again.

There were a few instances where Goku specifically talked about beating Buu -

Goku states that he could have "beaten" the Fat Buu when he met him
Vegeta states that Goku can "obliterate" Buu if he charges up his power
Goku states that Vegetto could do it.

When Goku brings up brings up Gohan and Gotenks, he doesn't use the word Beat he uses the word "fight"

Goku's face on the panel talking about bringing the boys isn't a look of hope/wonder or amazement at the idea. We are actually told specifically in the story that 1. Buu would have killed everyone if they didn't stop him with the spirit bomb. 2. that if Buu were to return, he would kill everyone, so Goku says he will train to beat him.

PS: Daizenshuu 7 says that Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu.

You sure about that?

Second

There's also the matter of Goku and Buu's fight. It was impossible for Goku to be actively suppressing his power (he couldn't even do that in SS1 until he mastered it, and SS3 is explicitly called unstable), yet he wasn't in a different dimension from Buu.

Isn't true in the slightest. Goten and Trunks haven't mastered SSJ, yet can suppress their power, Gohan hasn't mastered SSJ2 and can do the same, as can Goku.
Goku's admission to Vegeta only furthers that concept.

And Goku states that he can't beat Super Buu, while also saying that he can beat Pure Buu. Funny that you ignored that fourth instance where he talks about beating Buu. And the fifth instance, where he says Gotenks can beat Fat Buu with iron certainty, to the point that he tells Piccolo not to throw them in the ROSAT, because that should only be used for real threats. His words, not mine. Also, "fight" has been used in such contexts as "Vegeta will fight Pure Buu" or "I, Piccolo, will fight Super Buu". "Fight" just means any violent struggle, even if it's extremely short and one sided.

Yes. It's in Buu's D7 bio.

Nope. They have mastered SS, which is why they can suppress it. No one ever outright suppressed SS2.

Goku goes on to state that he will have to beat Buu and find away to escape.

Goku and Vegeta go on to comment how Kid Buu's power increased during transformation and it's confirmed by Kaioshinn. Kaioshinn states Buu is more evil AND more powerful than before. We know this is true because Buu destroys the Earth despite the peas of Goku and Vegeta (evil) with a blast that cannot be stopped (powerful)

And fight =/= beat.

I pointed out how Goku outright lied (and told Piccolo in privacy such) and reiterated his point to Elder Kaio and Vegeta while stating that he could "beat" Buu.

And again, there are no statements showing that 1. you have to master any SSJ form to supress it, 2. That Goten/Trunks mastered it (the daizenshuu says otherwise) 3. that you can't supress SSJ2/3. It's an assumption.

Finally, I looked up Daizenshuu 7 and I don't see the quote.

[Taskmaster]

When Goku brings up brings up Gohan and Gotenks, he doesn't use the word Beat he uses the word "fight"

For starters, the whole point of his and Vegeta's conversation was that they were coming up with a way to beat Buu, so defeating Buu was already the goal of their strategy planning. Second, why would Goku assume that's Vegeta's plan (and jump to that being the first idea he had on the matter) if he didn't believe they were able to beat Buu? The fact that he jumped to that first and foremost, even over something like having Polunga restore his health or something along those lines, points to them being the best chance against Buu.

1. Buu would have killed everyone if they didn't stop him with the spirit bomb. 2. that if Buu were to return, he would kill everyone, so Goku says he will train to beat him.

1) No, it's never stated or indicated that the Genki Dama was their only hope.

2) Vegeta comments that if Buu were to ever pop back up again, that the Earth really may be doomed that time. Nothing is specified as to what actions he'd do or that he'd be stronger than everyone else or anything remotely like that, simply that Earth might really be doomed next time. As such, for all we know (and given what's shown in the manga, his attitude supports this) Buu may emerge and immediately go and destroy the planet itself before any of the Z Senshi could get there to stop him. And if that happened while everyone else was on the planet, that'd leave everyone capable of fighting Buu dead, and thus no way of defeating him.

Likewise, Goku specifically says that the worst case scenario would be he and Vegeta fighting Buu again, and proposes that they train in case that scenario comes to pass. So Goku's statement basically could come down to "If, for some reason, Gohan and Gotenks aren't able to come and beat him in time, but we're around, let's make sure we're strong enough to be able to find him, even on our own." The whole reason he brings up that they'll just fight if it comes down to a worse case scenario means that he assumes that other events will come into play first that'll stop Buu, but should they not, then he and Vegeta should make themselves ready in case they need to step in.

He doesn't use the word "Beat" he says "fight"
The context here is he doesn't believe either fighter on their own can beat this Buu (which is why he suggested both and uses the words "fight")
Remember what I pointed out about over analyizing? Now if your statement was true and mine was false - Goku and Vegeta's comments about Buu coming back would be meaningless, Goku's comments to Goten in Dragonball Super would be meaningless and Gohan's look of worry on his face (when inquiring about Buu's death) would be meaningless.

So yes, the Spirit Bomb WAS the only hope, Goku goes as far to say that if Satan and Buu didn't help EVERYONE would have died.


And no, the "planet buster" theory doesn't work, as Goku specifically talks about FIGHTING Buu again if that happens. Again, you're fabricating things not stated.
You have to assume WAY too much and fabricate completely different scenarios than what is shown outright to make that true.

Honestly everything you stated, there isn't one statement in any media source to support it, be in manga, anime, interviews or daizenshuu.

[dbgtFO]

He doesn't use the word "Beat" he says "fight"
The context here is he doesn't believe either fighter on their own can beat this Buu (which is why he suggested both and uses the words "fight")
Remember what I pointed out about over analyizing?

Aren't you overanalyzing yourself here? You're taking a generic statement about Goku suggesting they bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight to mean, that Goku must believe that neither of them could win on their own, when Goku doesn't elaborate at all on what he thinks would happen.

[Taskmaster]

He doesn't use the word "Beat" he says "fight"
The context here is he doesn't believe either fighter on their own can beat this Buu (which is why he suggested both and uses the words "fight")
Remember what I pointed out about over analyizing?

Aren't you overanalyzing yourself here? You're taking a generic statement about Goku suggesting they bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight to mean, that Goku must believe that neither of them could win on their own, when Goku doesn't elaborate at all on what he thinks would happen.

I'm not.

Goku doesn't say Gohan and Gotenks can beat Buu, later on he expands on that statement saying Buu could have truly killed everyone (that includes the boys)

[singsing]

I'm not.

Goku doesn't say Gohan and Gotenks can beat Buu, later on he expands on that statement saying Buu could have truly killed everyone (that includes the boys)

That's right, he could. He could just show up out of nowhere and drop a planet busting attack out of nowhere again. Bam, dead Earth, dead Z-fighters.

[Taskmaster]

I'm not.

Goku doesn't say Gohan and Gotenks can beat Buu, later on he expands on that statement saying Buu could have truly killed everyone (that includes the boys)

That's right, he could. He could just show up out of nowhere and drop a planet busting attack out of nowhere again. Bam, dead Earth, dead Z-fighters.

He could, but that's not what was stated. :shrug:

[Darkprince410]

The context here is he doesn't believe either fighter on their own can beat this Buu (which is why he suggested both and uses the words "fight")
Remember what I pointed out about over analyizing? Now if your statement was true and mine was false - Goku and Vegeta's comments about Buu coming back would be meaningless, Goku's comments to Goten in Dragonball Super would be meaningless and Gohan's look of worry on his face (when inquiring about Buu's death) would be meaningless.

Again, the entire conversation Goku and Vegeta were having at the time was the use of the Dragon Balls to set up a means for them to defeat Buu, so naturally any idea they would come up with would be means to that end. None of Goku's comments toward Goten in any way change that Gohan and Gotenks would still have been better off in beating Buu. Besides, again, why would Goku bring them up if he didn't believe they could beat him? His own body is ravaged and unable to even hold a charge as Super Saiya-jin 3, so there's no indication that he planned to just have them to be brought back to life just to stall him for awhile.

You being caught up on the whole "fight" vs. "beat" situation is basically like this. Say my friend and I are coming up with ways to raise money to buy a new video game system, and I say "Oh! I know! Let's sell some old comic books that we don't want anymore". According to you, because I'm not expressly saying "Let's sell some old comic books that we don't want anymore to raise money for a new video game system" then my reason for bringing it up isn't toward that goal. However, given the context of why I brought it up, it's clear what the reason behind it is.

So yes, the Spirit Bomb WAS the only hope, Goku goes as far to say that if Satan and Buu didn't help EVERYONE would have died.

And I explained how that line is relevant regardless of whether or not they had even used the Genki Dama in the first place. If Mr. Satan hadn't stepped in initially when he did, then Vegeta, who was trying to stall Buu for a minute for Goku to gather ki as Ssj3, would have been killed by Buu. In addition, his stepping in caused Mr. Buu to be spat out, who further stalled Pure Buu for awhile before Goku even fell out of Ssj3, unable to hold a charge. So there's a decent gap in time there where Mr. Buu (thanks to Mr. Satan) is stalling Pure Buu before Vegeta even brings up the Dragon Balls and restoring Earth's population, and if it hadn't been for Mr. Buu, Vegeta would have died/ceased to exist before the idea was brought up to use the Dragon Balls.

Even if Gohan and Gotenks had been brought up to defeat Buu and had done so, it would have still been thanks to Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu that Pure Buu was destroyed.

And no, the "planet buster" theory doesn't work, as Goku specifically talks about FIGHTING Buu again if that happens. Again, you're fabricating things not stated.

Except it's Vegeta that brought up the whole everyone would be doomed aspect, not Goku, and since he doesn't specify how everyone would be doomed, then the "planet buster" theory works perfectly well. It's Goku that specifies it being a situation of them needing to fight.

Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”

See? He doesn't mention anything about fighting at all, so what he's potentially fearful for could readily still be a planet buster situation.

Honestly everything you stated, there isn't one statement in any media source to support it, be in manga, anime, interviews or daizenshuu.

That describes your situation more than mine. When you have the manga pretty clearly pointing to Pure Buu being weaker than Evil Buu, guide books supporting this by establishing that Buu lost power when he lost his absorptions (and even shows the scene of Mr. Buu's cocoon being ripped away to illustrate that fact), guide books saying that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 (not specifying who either, so a blanket statement that would have to include Goku), etc, then yeah, there's more evidence pointing to Gohan being able to beat Pure Buu just fine.

[singsing]

I'm not.

Goku doesn't say Gohan and Gotenks can beat Buu, later on he expands on that statement saying Buu could have truly killed everyone (that includes the boys)

That's right, he could. He could just show up out of nowhere and drop a planet busting attack out of nowhere again. Bam, dead Earth, dead Z-fighters.

He could, but that's not what was stated. :shrug:

It also wasn't stated that he could directly beat them in 1v1 or even 2v1 combat, so I mean :shrug: Don't know what you're trying to get at here.

[Taskmaster]

Goku says Gotenks can beat Buu
GoKu says Gohan can beat Buu
Goku says HE can beat Buu

Goku states that Gohan and Gotenks can FIGHT Buu, he goes on to state that if Buu and Satan didn't help, the whole universe (with Gohan) would be doomed
It's stated if Buu comes BACK, everyone would be doomed. Goku also states that he and Vegeta should train in case Buu ever does appear again, so they won't lose this time.

No implication that Gohan could do anything - Goku only guesses if that was Vegeta's plan, which it wasn't (and apparently it's such a terrible Idea, it isn't brought up again)

Dragon Ball super has Goku training in case another foe as strong as Buu appears -
Goten makes a statement implying Goku is the strongest in the universe (as far as he knows)
Vegeta has a monologue stating Goku is the strongest in the universe,

Again, Gohan isn't mentioned.

[Brettjr25]

I'm not sure where the conversation is now but going back to why people thought Gohan was stronger than Goku and Goku wouldn't catch up. Wasnt that just manga logic? It was clear Ultimate Gohan was stronger than ss3 goku and sure we got comments like how goku could kill buu but right away we are shown the only reason goku could get so strong in ss3 was because he was dead and being alive put too much strain on his body. So how wouldve goku logically get stronger? I doubt anyone could forsee god ki.

[Taskmaster]

Here is what I don't understand:

Goku says that he can't beat Buu, and when forced to face him changes his tune and states the opposite.
When Pure Buu appears he is explicitly stated to be stronger than before twice and proves it.

Goku hesitates to fight Kid Buu, stating that he'll use the Dragonballs to wish back whoever was harmed (but apparently not wish back Gohan, nor did Kiaoshinn offer himself up to bring him back, like he did for Goku)
Goku states 2 options for victory, one being Fusion (though as far as we know, no earring exist)
The other is a Full power blast

Vegeta states that ONLY Goku can fight this Buu (While he is dead, just like Gohan and Gotenks)
Vegeta states that Goku is #1

Goku lose, and says that the universe is doomed (no Gohan mentioned)
Vegeta wishes everyone back and his plan doesn't involve Gohan and Gotenks (who are part of the planet)

Goku and Vegeta take the energy from EVERYONE up "To the limit" including power from the Kaioshin, Otherworld and Namek (you know, places that aren't Earth) just to defeat Buu.

Again...how would have bringing Gohan to supposedly beat Buu be LESS easy?
We *you* literally have to be creative with your thinking just to hold ONE LINE that was immidaitely ignored, as more powerful than everything that appears afterwards.

The interview in Daizenshuu 2 states that Goku is the pure strongest in the universe.
Goten's coversation with Goku in DBS says the same
Daizenshuu 7 compares Vegetto's power directly to SSJ3 Goku
BOG's benchmark was a being stronger than SSJ3 Goku
ETC
ETC

Nothing is mentioned about Gohan outside of the 2 minutes of fame he appears for, how do people believe that he was actually meant to be something special?

[Taskmaster]

There's no two ways about it: the way everything is written during the final fight with Pure Buu suggests Goku is stronger than Gohan (and Pure Buu stronger than Super Buu). Even if the possibility of Gohan and Gotenks lending a hand with Buu is brought up, it's never treated as a definitive, foolproof way to win. The way everything concerning the genkidama is written, the way every single character behaves, suggests that Goku and the genkidama are the last and only hope. Trying to prove otherwise by deconstructing and overanalyzing every word spoken in these chapters is, in my opinion, grasping at straws. Saying that Toriyama intended the final struggles with the genkidama and the climax to the whole series to be interpreted in a it's-no-big-deal-Gohan-can-easily-defeat-Buu-anyway kind of way is grasping at straws. It's obviously being portrayed as a desperate situation, and if Gohan and Gotenks could beat the crap out of Buu without breaking a sweat then it wouldn't be a desperate situation.

So that's the thing: Goku being treated as the strongest one by everybody (even during the final fight with Buu in the original manga) is as obvious as Goku stating something that unmistakably puts him below Gohan. There are only two ways to reconcile that, from an in-universe perspective: either we say “Goku lied/made a mistake when he said he couldn't beat Super Buu, even though there is no apparent reason that would explain his lie/mistake” or we say that, during the final battle with Pure Buu, “every single character in the show suddenly became stupid and completely forgot that both Gohan and Gotenks could easily defeat Buu, and the whole climax of the show is stupidly pointless because it's not a climax at all”. And that's why this is a neverending discussion: both possibilities are pretty far-fetched, although I would personally argue that the latter is far more “disruptive” (from a narrative point of view).

The thing is, ever since Goku said that sentence which implied that he was weaker than Gohan, he has been clearly treated as if he were stronger than Gohan. In the last section of the manga (debatable, I guess, although, as I have argued, I think it's pretty obvious), in the new movies (no question, including Battle of Gods, which is the most relevant one in this discussion) and in the new show (from what I have read, no question either). So we've kind of reached a point in which... yeah, there was this instance in which Goku said something that could only be interpreted as him being weaker than Gohan, only immediately after that he was being written and treated as the strongest character, and every single iteration of the franchise in the last 20 years, including those written by Toriyama himself, has treated him as the strongest character. So, short of Super having a scene in which Goku suddenly says "Hey, Vegeta, remember that time when we were trapped inside Super Buu and I said I couldn't beat him? I lied because I didn't want to hurt your feelings!" (or something like that), I don't think they can put it more clearly.