Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Seriously, how could Goku possibly be weaker than Beerus WITH the Kaioken technique.? Even a x2 or x3 would have a huge lead over Beerus, not to mention he'd probably be a lot faster than him.

So, did Beerus just forget how powerful he is, and he was actually hiding a LOT of power when he fought Goku?? lol
Watch his 70% full power become 5-10% later...

Still can't ignore Beerus' initial reaction after Goku used KKx10. I could totally read his mind in that scene. If he didn't crap himself there, I'd be shocked.

Actually it was after Goku used Kaioken x2, and before Beerus knew about Kaioken x10. Which is way more impressive.

[Bullza]

When a character in a shonen says something like that, it's a message from the author with the intention to hype a character up.

It was one line, one line that was stating the obvious. They weren't about to say "Well we have to go with Krillin" were they? There was no hyping up.

Buu was the first choice and their second choice was Piccolo who was weaker than a weakened Frost who was the second weakest of the 5.

Given that Buu was removed from the tournament without participating, Toriyama's intention is to tell us that Buu would have done extremely well.

No it isn't, that's just an assumption based on nothing. Goku and Vegeta were going to do extremely well and they weren't removed were they?

He was included in the team because he was one of the strongest and then he was removed because he was stupid. That's it. It doesn't matter what may or may not have been intended, all that matters is what was said in the story.

[Speedster]

The anime do tend to give the characters bigger feats of strength and speed than the manga(also pre Super) and given how much of the Super anime seems to be fanservice, I don't see what's so surprising, that we'll eventually get to the point where the two flat out contradict each other feat wise.One can claim that Magetta is also applying extra force, but it can't be too much, as the reason given for why Vegeta can't lift him is because of his mass, not because he's applying ridiculous amount of force to prevent Vegeta from lifting him.

Well by that logic the only things that truly count from the U6 arc onwards are the overlappings between the anime and the manga. This 1000 tonne thing is Toyotaro-only so it doesn't count as far as I am concerned. And by the way it is actually Beerus who says it as if it is an impossible task. So what, now, even Beerus cannot lift 1000 tonnes? Anyway I take it that Magetta was applying an additional force much greater than his weight and that being 1000tonnes meant that he was dense and tough enough to do so easily without his metal sustaining plastic deformation or something along these lines.

[Hugo Boss]

I still don't see the nexus between Goku commenting on Base Vegeta's ki and that somehow implying Base Vegeta is more powerful than any form Goku had up to that point.

Goku said that Vegeta's ki had a "completely different quality" to it. The only way to explain this is SSG power.

I like how Super Saiyan Turlast x4 explained. Vegeta doesn't need SSG power to be as strong as Goku suggests. The SSG power itself is something implied to be integrated with Super Saiyan Blue.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Why does wanting Boo to be on the team have to mean he'd automatically solo the majority of the U6 team? I just don't see why it has to mean that when it could simply mean we need a strong dude on our team.

Goku can't possibly know how strong all of the combatants on the U6 team were, so it makes sense for him to want to go in prepared with the best fighters available. For all we know, Mr. Boo could be Botamo tier.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the manga so far, Base/SS Goku, Base/SS Vegeta, Piccolo, Botamo, Frost, and Magetta don't seem to be in the level of gods (and Cabba will most likely fall in the same category).

Back in BoG arc, we didn't get any indication that Goku absorbed the power of SSG, so his & Vegeta's base & SS forms are probably around the same level they were before. Super Saiyan Blue was also said to be achieved through their training with Whis. Of course, we may later learn that Goku absorbed the power of SSG back then, but we haven't been told anything so far.

Piccolo was treated as weaker than Boo when they were picking fighters. We didn't see him training with Gohan here, and no one made any comment for his power, so he is probably around the same level he was before, which is between the base Saiyans & Super Saiyans. His fight with Frost indicates this, since he could at least manage something against Final Form Frost, who was weaker than SS Goku, even though he was weaker than him, making him stronger than Assault Form Frost who was at the same level as base Goku.

Frost was weaker than SS Goku, and Goku told him that he should train like Freeza did to become stronger, which sounds like he is nowhere near Freeza was after his revival & training.

Botamo was weaker than base Goku, but still strong enough to cause him little trouble, and Magetta was stronger than SS Vegeta.

So going by the manga:

• Vados | Whis
  Beerus | Champa
  Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
  Majin Boo
  Magetta
  Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta
  Final Form Frost
  Piccolo
  Assault Form Frost
  Base Goku | Base Vegeta
  First Form Frost
  Botamo
  • To be determined: Monaka, Hit, Cabba

[JoeCapricorn]

Monaka vs. Mr. Satan, who would win?

I'm not really sure. I think Satan has a chance in that one!

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, Monaka's going to fight Goku in one of the upcoming episodes. We might be in for a little surprise...

[Bullza]

Back in BoG arc, we didn't get any indication that Goku absorbed the power of SSG, so his & Vegeta's base & SS forms are probably around the same level they were before.

The manga is so brief especially the BoG arc that I would expect most details were simply left out. In the anime it was clear they got a lot stronger in base form when compared to how they were at the start if the show.

Vegeta had to do 6 months training with Whis and Goku said he'd powered up hugely and he didn't recognise him at first and that was just so Vegeta could catch back up to him.

I don't think they're as strong as SSJG in base form because it'd mean SSJG was less than 1% the strenght of Beerus but Goku probably kept some of the power and then he trained to be able to bring it all out on his own.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The manga is so brief especially the BoG arc that I would expect most details were simply left out. In the anime it was clear they got a lot stronger in base form when compared to how they were at the start if the show.

I'm not saying that they definitely haven't absorbed the SSG power, but as far as we know for now, they haven't. In Champa arc so far, it doesn't look like base/SS Goku & Vegeta are anywhere near the level of gods.

But if we later learn that they have the SSG power, I think that they will go the 2 base forms way, since both Toriyama & Toyotaro have portrayed base Goku on the same level as SSG in their previous works.

It appears that it was Toei's idea to retcon the 2 base forms into 1 base form that is 50 times weaker than SS/SSG, since the fights from Botamo up to Cabba seem to be written with base, SS, and SSB having huge difference between them, while the Hit fight portrays base & SSB having a not so huge difference like before, so they kinda messed up.

[Bullza]

They definitely don't seem to be as strong as SSJG in base at the moment, I can't see all these characters being God tier especially someone like Cabba who is just a young Saiyan who hadn't even heard of Super Saiyan.

But Goku definitley powered up in his base form after having become a God. They're drastically more powerful than they were at the start of the show in base.

[Doctor.]

I just keep their base forms around Mr. Boo - Kid Boo tiers of power for good measure, in order to fit in well with the epilogue too.

[namekiansaiyan]

Seriously what is God tier, the way everyone is using it on here makes no sense.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Goku definitley powered up in his base form after having become a God. They're drastically more powerful than they were at the start of the show in base.

In the movies & anime? Definitely. In the manga though? There is no indication, at least not yet.

[namekiansaiyan]

But Goku definitley powered up in his base form after having become a God. They're drastically more powerful than they were at the start of the show in base.

In the movies & anime? Definitely. In the manga though? There is no indication, at least not yet.

Anime takes precedence over the manga though.

[Bullza]

But Goku definitley powered up in his base form after having become a God. They're drastically more powerful than they were at the start of the show in base.

In the movies & anime? Definitely. In the manga though? There is no indication, at least not yet.

The only thing that comes to mind is Base Goku taking SSJB's Vegeta's point blank blast without severe injuries but that might not mean all that much.

I don't think it particularly matters either way, like the above said the anime takes precedence.

[Khin]

Says who ? And don't tell me it comes from the anime because i follow the manga for the powerscaling for the Champa Arc [Unless the chapter is yet to be released] ,since it's more consistent and closer to Toriyama's script.

Goku went for Buu first instead of Piccolo because Buu is stronger than Piccolo. If according to you, Piccolo was much stronger than Buu, Goku would have asked Piccolo to join the tourney first.

Anime-only.In the manga,Goku was in Beerus' castle when they said that,so they shouldn't know what's going on earth.

Assault Form Frost is slightly stronger than Base Goku.Final Form Freeza was more or less on par with Base Goku back in RoF Arc and his First Form should be at least enough to stomp SSJ Gohan who probably reverted back to his Z-Sword self.Piccolo put up a good fight against a weakened Frost who Vegeta still need SSJ to beat.

SSJ Cabba can sense God Ki,which not even SSj3 Goku in BoG can't do.

[LightBing]

This "anime takes precedence over the manga" talk doesn't make sense. Both works are different, even if they follow the same framework.

I hope this isn't an excuse to put down the manga. One either chooses to base the power levels on one source or the other. There are clear differences, I can make Mutated Vegeta radically weaker in the manga, compared to the anime, for example.

One either follows the manga or the anime; one can even only follow the movies. None is above or below the others. People just have to be clear, were they ideas are coming and not mix everything to create a huge mess.

[LowRyder2005]

Other than quoting LightBing's post, I think there's a little confusion on the term canon. "Canon to something" means "something made by one given author, in narrative continuity with another work by the same author".

The anime is canon to TOEI's own framework because it's produced by Toriyama and TOEI, or rather Toriyama and TOEI's writers.
The manga is apparently canon to Toriyama's own framework, since he's the only credited writer. We have seen the process through which it's produced and Toriyama writes the plot and gives a storyboard to Toyotaro, who is basically the "arm" in the process.
The movies are probably either something in-between, or something which can theoretically be elevated to Toriyama's own canon.

If there's something which happens to be more "canon" to Toriyama's original work right now is the companion manga, paradoxically enough. In a way, in the context of canonicity to Toriyama's works, it'd be far more deontological to give precedence to the manga.

In short:
* Dragon Ball Super's anime, which is the main product, is canon to TOEI's Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball. So far so good.
* The Dragon Ball Super's manga is, de facto, canon to Toriyama's corpus. On paper, it would mean that it's canon to the Dragon Ball manga, just like Conan Doyle's 56 stories about Holmes are canon between themselves and are all made by the same author. However, again on paper, the manga is supposed to be a side-product: a publicity stunt, basically. With the manga becoming its own product, though, through a proper tankobon release this counter-argument may have become slightly obsolete.

There is still a fundamental problem though: how much of the manga is influenced by the anime and vice versa? Which is the real transposition of what? I mean, let's say that Toriyama and TOEI's writers discuss the plot of an anime episode, which incorporates ideas from all of them, and then Toriyama elaborates upon them and creates the plot of the manga. Is it still canon to, say, Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga? Of course, it's not like Toriyama's manga wasn't influenced by his editors, for one, and it won't change the fact that Toriyama is the only one credited with the narrative layout of manga - see Arthur Conan Doyle's comparison again -, but it may be some nice food for thought.

[Volk]

Letś go back to the scouter days where the anime literally gives us the actual power levels