Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Crazy isn't it? That was their big reason/justification among others for cutting 20% or more of the image off the top and bottom back in 2007, it's really what they should've done rather than transferring and butchering the series to a fake widescreen presentation it was never intended to be viewed in.

The reason they keep messing up is to keep fans demanding more releases. If they were to put out one perfect release like they do for their other anime, they wouldn't be able to milk the hell out of it like they do now.

Yes, and unfortunately they continue on with doing trash releases because of course they know regardless of the quality most will still buy them anyway because DBZ is by far their biggest cash cow that keeps on giving in spades. It really screws over the fans who actually want a good release which isn't smeared into oblivion or cropped/zoomed to hell. Seriously, FUNi is fully capable of one which can satisfy all the fans but decide to do the former ad nauseum. Getting the Dragon Boxes was not an easy venture for me by any means, but when they haven't put out a superior version since then it was really my only option to have a complete set of the series in decent quality. It's kind of a shame that i had to go to such lengths, but FUNi's lack of alternatives really left me not much of a choice there when they've constantly dropped the ball so much.

The 30th set and these steel books are a step in the right direction, though still not nearly what we would all ideally want the releases to be.

[Matches Malone]

Getting the Dragon Boxes was not an easy venture for me by any means, but when they haven't done a superior version since then it was really my only option to have a complete set of the series in decent quality.

I'm always thankful for preferring Kai, because the options they've given us for Z have been really bad. Things are better now with the steelbooks, but for around 13 years fans of Z have been stuck with the orange sets or 2013 season sets. So many issues could've been resolved if they gave the dragon boxes a standard release following its limited run.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Getting the Dragon Boxes was not an easy venture for me by any means, but when they haven't done a superior version since then it was really my only option to have a complete set of the series in decent quality.

I'm always thankful for preferring Kai, because the options they've given us for Z have been really bad. Things are better now with the steelbooks, but for around 13 years fans of Z have been stuck with the orange sets or 2013 season sets. So many issues could've been resolved if they gave the dragon boxes a standard release following its limited run.

True, at least it's somewhat improved to a degree now that they've seemingly moved past their "DBZ in widescreen!!!" phase and have started releasing the show more like how it should be presented. Too bad it took them over a decade to do so with only two releases in the course of this time that were actually decent in the Dragon Boxes that were limited albeit not initially advertised as such in which a standard version as you said should've been done after and the Level sets which had the misfortune of coming out crammed in between all the other DBZ releases already out at the time in late 2011 and thus leading to their swift demise.

[Jhanzie]

So all the helpful responses here, combined with a bit of scrutiny of my own, has shifted my opinions a bit.

I totally geeked out with my daughter tonight, comparing different editions of Z up close on our 65” 4K TV. Specifically, Dragon Box (albeit compressed), Kai BD, and 30th (Steelbook.) The season DVDs and BD are obsolete to me now, so I didn’t waste my time with those.

My original intent was to play with my Picture settings on the TV, and see if a little tweak would turn Namek Bulma’s hair to a more accurate aqua green color on the 30th. No such luck. My TV is calibrated with a basic calibration disc by me, but I wanted to make sure.

So then I was showing the daughter the other versions listed above for comparison. Our mutual observation was that the picture on Kai is noticeably softer, and the image isn’t as steady as the 30th. The Dragon Box of course is softer due to low resolution and the colors seem to be “off” due to aging of the film. Everyone has a different opinion of what looks “good” to them, but in comparison my preference is the sharper, clearer image of the 30th.

Part of my gripe on the 30th was that it lost some of the filmic appearance due to grain removal. But, as was pointed out earlier in this thread... the actual original art is not *film* exactly, but animation cells. The thing with the processing FUNi has done is that the DNR changes the “look” of the backdrop scenery especially. The background art originally looked softer, and their video processing makes it look cleaner. But the characters, which consist of a lot of solid outlines painted on the animation cells, fare a lot better, IMHO. I like the sharp detail and clear aspect of the 30th above the fuzziness of Kai and the Dragon Box overall. BUT, the effect of the DNR is noticeable on the 30th and is a flaw in the presentation, especially the background. There is what I would describe as a “noise” about it, especially around areas that are supposed to look soft, like the clouds. I’m not sure if that is technically a correct description, but the image on the 30th does look more stable than Kai, in terms of the whole picture flickering. And perhaps the look of the characters on the 30th are more true to what the animation cells looked like vs. a grainier, HD film scan presentation as in the Level Sets.

All things considered, and after comparing the official versions I have, I have concluded I am OK with these Steelbooks. I would be interested to compare them to a BD edition of the Japanese Dragon Boxes, if they were color corrected and upscaled.

[jaisonas]

Some examples of cel-like restorations:

Spoiler:

It's honestly hard to find anything that looks as as dull and un-cel-like as level sets, but some things that don't have the restoration like above are here:

Spoiler:

Like I say, in the 2nd group, these still look more cel-like than level sets but that's to be expected since levels is a rare case of an american company both scanning and restoring it from third or second-gen film. I don't hate the look, I do like gritty filmic colours but yeah there's something better about restoring it to a cel look that I can't quite put into words

Out of all of these examples, i'll gladly take the film restorations over the cel restorations, and especially toei's cel restorations. People throw the buzzword "restored to how its intended to look" a lot when they're doing cel restorations while omitting the format the show was shot on.
Thats not how it works when film is used as the medium.

[TheGreatness25]

Spoiler:

Crazy isn't it? That was their big reason/justification among others for cutting 20% or more of the image off the top and bottom back in 2007, it's really what they should've done rather than transferring and butchering the series to a fake widescreen presentation it was never intended to be viewed in.

The reason they keep messing up is to keep fans demanding more releases. If they were to put out one perfect release like they do for their other anime, they wouldn't be able to milk the hell out of it like they do now.

As I've said, though, I feel like the only fans buying their releases at this point, are collectors. Anyone but a collector is either holding out for something better, has the Dragon Boxes and covets those as the most perfect release so far, or has found a way to get the series without padding up Funimation's bank account. So, in a weird way, I think every release they make of Dragon Ball is destined to fall flat -- at least a lot more flat than their previous releases like the orange bricks just because the fans got wise to their BS. Meanwhile, collectors like me just keep buying to be able to compare the video or whatever. We have to be a niche audience for them, right?

[jjgp1112]

Some examples of cel-like restorations:

Spoiler:

It's honestly hard to find anything that looks as as dull and un-cel-like as level sets, but some things that don't have the restoration like above are here:

Spoiler:

Like I say, in the 2nd group, these still look more cel-like than level sets but that's to be expected since levels is a rare case of an american company both scanning and restoring it from third or second-gen film. I don't hate the look, I do like gritty filmic colours but yeah there's something better about restoring it to a cel look that I can't quite put into words

Out of all of these examples, i'll gladly take the film restorations over the cel restorations, and especially toei's cel restorations. People throw the buzzword "restored to how its intended to look" a lot when they're doing cel restorations while omitting the format the show was shot on.
Thats not how it works when film is used as the medium.

Eh, with intentions you have to factor in the limitations that caused the end product to look the way they did. Cross referencing cels and promo artwork is probably the best way to get the film how they were always intended to look, and I think the "Cel-like" restorations look far superior to the filmic ones. A lot more life in the colors without looking like a distorted mess. Like someone else mentioned, "old" is relative. Those shows weren't trying to look old in the 80s and 90s.

[Lightningexpose]

Out of all of these examples, i'll gladly take the film restorations over the cel restorations, and especially toei's cel restorations. People throw the buzzword "restored to how its intended to look" a lot when they're doing cel restorations while omitting the format the show was shot on.
Thats not how it works when film is used as the medium.

Uhhh...yeah no

Another totally wrong argument people put forward “uh it was shot on muh film therefore muh filmic look is intended/should stay”....no.

There’s a reason animation dipped from film as soon as it could unlike live action movies where film is still used by those who desire the filmic look. Film was the only medium to shoot the animation onto. You’d be smarter to understand that any animation undergoing the filmic look is a limitation of its time and not because that’s the desired look of the animation. Just the same as watching it in SD only was a limitation of its time.

The filmic look even on animation is aesthetically pleasing but you must be severely lacking in taste for image and colour fidelity to think the ones shown in the 2nd group are superior to the ones shown in the first group. I know the internet nerd/fanboy “I love muh film” culture is strong and all, but try not to be blinded by it.

[CuppaKofe]

Of the classic anime blurays that I own, I'd have to agree that the "cel restoration" (I think this needs a more representive name Imo) look is a lot better when done correctly. I prefer vibrant, accurate colours much more than a dull filmic look.

The 0079 Gundam and SDF Macross blurays look phenomenal compared to something like DBZs level sets. But those restorations were probably done using much better preserved negatives than the 3rd generation copies funi used. If toei handed off their negatives to Sunrise or a similar company, we'd be getting much better results, but I doubt this will ever happen.

[jjgp1112]

I feel like Funimation's treatment of the show pushed a contingent of this board way too far in the other direction. Sure, we're far away from the days of the Dragon Box being the holy grail and the pink-tinted whites and flesh tones being waved off at COVID-denier levels, but much like the wrongheaded "Dragon Ball is lighthearted, whimsy and not at all a musclefest" sentiment gained too much leeway, so did this notion that DB and other shows of its time have to look gritty and aged, and that's the only way to "respect" the film material. Nevermind that the intention was never to look old to begin with! DB didn't look like a faded and grungy show on good TVs in 1989.

Of the classic anime blurays that I own, I'd have to agree that the "cel restoration" (I think this needs a more representive name Imo) look is a lot better when done correctly. I prefer vibrant, accurate colours much more than a dull filmic look.

The 0079 Gundam and SDF Macross blurays look phenomenal compared to something like DBZs level sets. But those restorations were probably done using much better preserved negatives than the 3rd generation copies funi used. If toei handed off their negatives to Sunrise or a similar company, we'd be getting much better results, but I doubt this will ever happen.

The DBZ movie remasters that didn't get blasted by the Yellow-HameHa show just how well a cel-like restoration would work for DB. Movies 3 and 8 in particular are just stunning to look at.

[jaisonas]

Out of all of these examples, i'll gladly take the film restorations over the cel restorations, and especially toei's cel restorations. People throw the buzzword "restored to how its intended to look" a lot when they're doing cel restorations while omitting the format the show was shot on.
Thats not how it works when film is used as the medium.

Uhhh...yeah no

Another totally wrong argument people put forward “uh it was shot on muh film therefore muh filmic look is intended/should stay”....no.

There’s a reason animation dipped from film as soon as it could unlike live action movies where film is still used by those who desire the filmic look. Film was the only medium to shoot the animation onto. You’d be smarter to understand that any animation undergoing the filmic look is a limitation of its time and not because that’s the desired look of the animation. Just the same as watching it in SD only was a limitation of its time.

The filmic look even on animation is aesthetically pleasing but you must be severely lacking in taste for image and colour fidelity to think the ones shown in the 2nd group are superior to the ones shown in the first group. I know the internet nerd/fanboy “I love muh film” culture is strong and all, but try not to be blinded by it.

The reason they stopped using film is that film process was way more expensive and time consuming than the typical computer scan digital that replaced it. So much more that the trade off in quality didnt matter to them. If we're talking purely about medium quality, film would still be at the top.

[jjgp1112]

Out of all of these examples, i'll gladly take the film restorations over the cel restorations, and especially toei's cel restorations. People throw the buzzword "restored to how its intended to look" a lot when they're doing cel restorations while omitting the format the show was shot on.
Thats not how it works when film is used as the medium.

Uhhh...yeah no

Another totally wrong argument people put forward “uh it was shot on muh film therefore muh filmic look is intended/should stay”....no.

There’s a reason animation dipped from film as soon as it could unlike live action movies where film is still used by those who desire the filmic look. Film was the only medium to shoot the animation onto. You’d be smarter to understand that any animation undergoing the filmic look is a limitation of its time and not because that’s the desired look of the animation. Just the same as watching it in SD only was a limitation of its time.

The filmic look even on animation is aesthetically pleasing but you must be severely lacking in taste for image and colour fidelity to think the ones shown in the 2nd group are superior to the ones shown in the first group. I know the internet nerd/fanboy “I love muh film” culture is strong and all, but try not to be blinded by it.

The reason they stopped using film is that film process was way more expensive and time consuming than the typical computer scan digital that replaced it. So much more that the trade off in quality didnt matter to them. If we're talking purely about medium quality, film would still be at the top.

Eh, not really. Some of the failings of the digital medium have more to do with HOW it's used than the medium itself. The trade off in quality was because of the crappy vector compositing of the late 90s and the color choices. Digital enabled companies to cut corners more easily. But cartoons nowadays blow cels out the water.

[kemuri07]

Crazy isn't it? That was their big reason/justification among others for cutting 20% or more of the image off the top and bottom back in 2007, it's really what they should've done rather than transferring and butchering the series to a fake widescreen presentation it was never intended to be viewed in.

The reason they keep messing up is to keep fans demanding more releases. If they were to put out one perfect release like they do for their other anime, they wouldn't be able to milk the hell out of it like they do now.

Yes, and unfortunately they continue on with doing trash releases because of course they know regardless of the quality most will still buy them anyway because DBZ is by far their biggest cash cow that keeps on giving in spades. It really screws over the fans who actually want a good release which isn't smeared into oblivion or cropped/zoomed to hell. Seriously, FUNi is fully capable of one which can satisfy all the fans but decide to do the former ad nauseum. Getting the Dragon Boxes was not an easy venture for me by any means, but when they haven't put out a superior version since then it was really my only option to have a complete set of the series in decent quality. It's kind of a shame that i had to go to such lengths, but FUNi's lack of alternatives really left me not much of a choice there when they've constantly dropped the ball so much.

The 30th set and these steel books are a step in the right direction, though still not nearly what we would all ideally want the releases to be.

It's the double edge sword of popularity, unfortunately. If DBZ had a cult following, you probably would have see a better release by now precisely because it would only be sold to those willing to drop the money. But because of how popular DBZ is, there's always an expectation to make a profit. And as far as Funi is concerned--you already got your "perfect" release with the Dragon Boxes. Because if you're a real fan, you probably are already willing to drop the money for them anyways.

[Lightningexpose]

The reason they stopped using film is that film process was way more expensive and time consuming than the typical computer scan digital that replaced it. So much more that the trade off in quality didnt matter to them. If we're talking purely about medium quality, film would still be at the top.

Lol.

Like I just told you, live action movies to this day will still shoot on film if they so desire. Printing to film will cost somewhere in the tens of thousands, it's really not a budget breaker for large studios. This is more true with animation studios since they don't have to worry about retakes as much. I think you should look up a little into how much it costs to shoot onto 35mm film then how much the budget was for a lot of the good fully digital disney/ghibli animated movies.

If we're talking purely about medium quality, film would still be at the top.

Again, lol.

This happens way too often, people mistakenly claiming film is superior quality/resolution to digital/video... This holds true up to like...1990 maybe? By 1990, (analogue) video technology had surpassed the amount of detail 16mm film could capture. You could even dare to say it surpassed 35mm film, but that's quite contentious and there are a lot of factors to consider. But yeah this is the same "vinyl is better quality than cds" mentality but it's not true at all lol.

Sticking to animation, here's what some early 2000s digital animation looks like:

Spoiler:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... t1E4Io.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... f7e1d7.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 8nfRaA.png

Tell me, what exactly is it about film that would've made these higher quality?

If you want to appreciate film, it should be for the right reasons, like you prefer the unique aesthetic and feeling it comes with rather than the plain, boring flawless capturing that (digital) video recording can do. You shouldn't appreciate it over wrong understandings like "it captures superior quality to digital" lmao

[jaisonas]

Sticking to animation, here's what some early 2000s digital animation looks like:

Spoiler:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... t1E4Io.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... f7e1d7.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 8nfRaA.png

Tell me, what exactly is it about film that would've made these higher quality?

The fact that prior to ~2015-16 digital animation was based on mediocre 720p scans and most of the backgrounds were limited to that if not colored on the same shitty mspaint method that the rest of the characters were coloured.
And since you cherry picked your early 2000s digital anime, here's my cherrypick 2000's anime.
Good luck capturing that detail digitally back then.


Also

This happens way too often, people mistakenly claiming film is superior quality/resolution to digital/video... This holds true up to like...1990 maybe? By 1990, (analogue) video technology had surpassed the amount of detail 16mm film could capture. You could even dare to say it surpassed 35mm film, but that's quite contentious and there are a lot of factors to consider.

Claiming that analogue video which at best back in 1990s was at 1080i, surpassed 16mm film which is a theoretical 2k resolution if we're talking digital, is completely nonsense and makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Lightningexpose]

The fact that prior to ~2015-16 digital animation was based on mediocre 720p scans and most of the backgrounds were limited to that if not colored on the same shitty mspaint method that the rest of the characters were coloured.
And since you cherry picked your early 2000s digital anime, here's my cherrypick 2000's anime.
Good luck capturing that detail digitally back then.

Spoiler:

My goodness, lol.

Firstly, you don't have to worry about showing me what old animation on film look like, given......I literally already posted a whole bunch of them in my earlier posts, with most of them looking far better quality than what you just posted here

Spoiler:

Secondly, cherrypicking? What on earth are you talking about? Was my point ever something like "most things done digitally look better"? We were talking about the mediums, and I was showing you what the potential of the digital animation medium was, right when it more or less first kicked in for anime. In case you get lost again, I repeat...point of showing them wasn't "oh all the stuff done digitally looked super good"...we were talking about the mediums and what they were capable of. I hope that's sunken in now?

Also wait what? lmao i'm laughing like crazy right now what 720p "scans"?

Claiming that analogue video which at best back in 1990s was at 1080i, surpassed 16mm film which is a theoretical 2k resolution if we're talking digital, is completely nonsense and makes me think you have no idea which you're talking about.

Ah, here we go...yet again more common misunderstandings. I'm glad I'm able to bust all these community-wide misunderstandings right here with you in one conversation rather than finding different misunderstandings flexed by different people.

Actually, before I do let me know what your understanding of "resolution" is?

[Jhanzie]

So I was doing some more comparison with the 30th BDs today. I had to check it out on my old CRT TV. I had to use an older BD player with RCA outputs and a coax to RCA converter to the TV. There was a thin black box all the way around the picture, but otherwise it looked really good.

And then going back to my 4K TV I expected the extra resolution to make it look worse. But really, no, and I am warming up to this set more and more. Today I reviewed episodes from Seasons 2 & 3, and I really got to say they looked pretty good, and have an old school vibe to them, like the old CRT TVs. It’s hard to explain, but Kai just looks “off” to me. It seems blurry and over-saturated. And the Dragon Box is good for a SD transfer, but I can’t say that overall that the sound and video is better than the 30th. I know that some people will disagree with me here, and that’s ok. I do wonder how many critics actually have these and have seen them at home. For a point of reference I will say I do also have the BD Season Sets. The picture on these always bothered me, the cropping, color saturation, and DNR... The 30 is an improvement in every way. People have said that the 30th lacks detail but the lines are really sharp and clear, the colors are more subdued and overall, for me, is the most enjoyable version to watch. Also I am watching with my kids and this time around we are listening to the US soundtrack in Dolby TrueHD and I got the subtitles on for me. We switch the audio over to the Japanese for the opening and closing themes.

The whole issue with FUNImation is they are trying to release a 30 year old cartoon from 3rd generation 16mm film strips. They are trying to a) make it look good and b) do it affordably so it is marketable and they make a profit. For $40/ a season I am happy with the Steelbooks. I might have paid more for an even better version. That would really have to be an HD scan from a better film source. At this point I am going to be content with the Steelbooks and hope for a HD release of original Dragon Ball.

[Scsigs]

Kai's colours are literally how the show is meant to look, straight off the cels. There isn't any retroactive grade going on there beyond DNR.

The Levels are grungy ass multigen print mediocrity.

This misconception is exactly what that other user was trying to convey, and nobody's grasped that yet.

I've heard that Kai was recolored to match the manga's colors. Or, at least, the intended colors. Guess I heard wrong.

Them cropping 16:9 was not an act of modernisation, it was an act of simply getting rid of black bars because apparently the average viewer doesn’t like black bars.

It’s the same reason why the “old” Spider-Man DVD I showed you is 4:3 and not the way it was intended, 16:9. They didn’t turn it from 16:9 to 4:3 to modernise it, it was simply because average viewers don’t like black bars on their screens.

Even on Kai, what you like to label as “modern dbz”, 16:9 crop wasn’t one of their “modernisation” tools since it was offered in 4:3 on most other ways besides Japanese TV where it had to be 16:9 by law.

Also, DNR isn’t an act of modernisation either. Improving signal to “noise” ratio has always been desirable it’s not some new thing. It’s just that some people don’t realise/care that we reach a limit to where reducing noise any further will weaken the signal too.
If you shoot video or record audio today you still get noise that you may want to reduce. I didn’t know I was modernising my iPhone 11 voice memos by reducing the noise on them... Besides, this thread is literally about a release that has (fake) grain so any “why is funi modernising by being anti grain” is redundant here. They seemingly are ok with the amount of (fake) grain and goal was simply to pull off the amateur logic of “sharper no matter what is better” so they had to DNR first to apply their god-awful sharpening. Sharpening isn’t an act of modernising.

In conclusion, funimation have literally done nothing to attempt a visual modernisation. Just extremely incompetent attempts at restoring. A true restoration would’ve left it actually looking far more vibrant rather than saturated; with way more dynamic range in colours and contrast; and way more detail in the backgrounds...i.e. looking way more like something that was freshly made and not been deteriorated away. So you should be saying “funimation would be forgiven for letting an old thing look deteriorated rather than attempt a shitty restoration.”

Hate to break it to you, but making TV shows widescreen, especially animation, has only been a relatively new development. Even for late-90s/early-mid-2000s animated shows that were future-proofed in that way, they were cropped or squished to 4:3 initially, only in the last ~10 years being able to be rereleased, or reaired in their true format. This was started to be prepared for in the late-2000s with widescreen TVs becoming the standard.

As for FUNi modernizing the series with it, they said in the blogpost last year that they cropped the series repeatedly because they wanted to maintain the series having no black bars on the sides, which is only possible with stretching or cropping the footage on widescreen TVs. So, yes, they used the cropping as a part of modernizing it to sell it to people.

A LOT of old DVDs were in 4:3, even if a movie was shot & in theaters in 16:9. No, it wasn't because viewers didn't like black bars (although, I can understand if they didn't. I'd rather things fill the full frame of the TV they're presented on when possible, but we don't live in the world that had 16:9 TVs from the jump), it was because, for TV, that was the standard. Old TV shows that were shot on film with the frames on the sides opened were the same way. They framed the shows in 4:3 because that was the standard at the time. Sure, you had shows future-proofed by leaving those frames open, but that wasn't the standard, nor did it become the standard till 2009. When HD & widescreen TVs became the standard, only then could we get shows created in that format originally rematted to 16:9. I mean, why else have the majority of shows shot on film been rereleased in 16:9? Hell, South Park's the only show created in 4:3 for its first 11 seasons that CAN actually be faithfully rematted to 16:9 successfully because the people who work there saved the original animation files for those episodes. Other animated shows? Nope. It just used to be how the TVs were formatted, so, to not create a jarring experience, films were cropped down to 4:3 back then on VHS & early DVDs. It was to conform to the standards for home TVs at the time. As soon as the standards started changing, they started releasing widescreen transfers on DVD, then had them on Blu-Ray & digital platforms. But, during the transition, film companies released them in both formats for a while to let people choose which they preferred watching. You're probably right to say that people probably preferred 4:3 at the time, but the companies put them out because the standards weren't completely changed yet. FUNi did it directly as a marketing tactic to modernize the show, though, which they basically admitted in their blogpost last year. Like, no other companies do that when making new releases of stuff that's in 4:3. DBZ is the only thing at all that FUNi's done that with too.

I didn't say the DNR was a thing for modernization. DNR is used to clean up the picture quality. However, they feel the need to get rid of the leftover grain, so they use a smearing tool, but they realize it looks awful, so they use sharpening tools. They want it to look like it was animated in the modern day to sell & they don't care what they have to do to do that, so they use these processes in the worst ways possible. The cropping is the nail in the coffin to that. Otherwise, even to hardcore fans, they wouldn't keep doing this shit. They'd release 1 definitive set that has actually good masters that they're then rerelease in different packaging if they cared more about artistic intent than money. Cropping something to an aspect ratio it wasn't created in, or intended to be seen in, when it's something that was 4:3 to widescreen is an attempt to modernize it. It's why Kai is in 16:9 too on TV & TFC. They reframed it to 16:9 for the TV airings to modernize it, which is also why Q-Tec & Toei also recolored it, removed a lot of the grain, & reanimated some frames. Otherwise Toei could've easily reanimated the entire series from the ground up with a continuity reboot of the anime, which they probably should've done so FUNi can finally stop making the original show look like shit. It's a combination of these things that add up to a shit product, not just the DNR. Have you never seen any proper analysis of any of FUNi's remasters of Z?

I mean, the point of a remaster/restoration is meant to preserve a thing in as high a quality as possible from the best quality masters as possible. Sailor Moon also suffers from a similar restoration process, except Viz didn't even have good masters to work with when they did, so I understand why that came out as bad as it did. FUNi purposefully makes their masters look like shit with their editing programs, even though they have really good masters (the screenshots of the raws they shared in the blogpost show they're really good quality, even for 3rd gen masters). So, no, FUNi don't get any credit for taking good film masters & turning them into shit, sorry. I'm not for partial credit when you purposefully fuck up so many times. That's not how I roll.

[Lightningexpose]

Spoiler:

Kai's colours are literally how the show is meant to look, straight off the cels. There isn't any retroactive grade going on there beyond DNR.

The Levels are grungy ass multigen print mediocrity.

This misconception is exactly what that other user was trying to convey, and nobody's grasped that yet.

I've heard that Kai was recolored to match the manga's colors. Or, at least, the intended colors. Guess I heard wrong.

Them cropping 16:9 was not an act of modernisation, it was an act of simply getting rid of black bars because apparently the average viewer doesn’t like black bars.

It’s the same reason why the “old” Spider-Man DVD I showed you is 4:3 and not the way it was intended, 16:9. They didn’t turn it from 16:9 to 4:3 to modernise it, it was simply because average viewers don’t like black bars on their screens.

Even on Kai, what you like to label as “modern dbz”, 16:9 crop wasn’t one of their “modernisation” tools since it was offered in 4:3 on most other ways besides Japanese TV where it had to be 16:9 by law.

Also, DNR isn’t an act of modernisation either. Improving signal to “noise” ratio has always been desirable it’s not some new thing. It’s just that some people don’t realise/care that we reach a limit to where reducing noise any further will weaken the signal too.
If you shoot video or record audio today you still get noise that you may want to reduce. I didn’t know I was modernising my iPhone 11 voice memos by reducing the noise on them... Besides, this thread is literally about a release that has (fake) grain so any “why is funi modernising by being anti grain” is redundant here. They seemingly are ok with the amount of (fake) grain and goal was simply to pull off the amateur logic of “sharper no matter what is better” so they had to DNR first to apply their god-awful sharpening. Sharpening isn’t an act of modernising.

In conclusion, funimation have literally done nothing to attempt a visual modernisation. Just extremely incompetent attempts at restoring. A true restoration would’ve left it actually looking far more vibrant rather than saturated; with way more dynamic range in colours and contrast; and way more detail in the backgrounds...i.e. looking way more like something that was freshly made and not been deteriorated away. So you should be saying “funimation would be forgiven for letting an old thing look deteriorated rather than attempt a shitty restoration.”

Hate to break it to you, but making TV shows widescreen, especially animation, has only been a relatively new development. Even for late-90s/early-mid-2000s animated shows that were future-proofed in that way, they were cropped or squished to 4:3 initially, only in the last ~10 years being able to be rereleased, or reaired in their true format. This was started to be prepared for in the late-2000s with widescreen TVs becoming the standard.

As for FUNi modernizing the series with it, they said in the blogpost last year that they cropped the series repeatedly because they wanted to maintain the series having no black bars on the sides, which is only possible with stretching or cropping the footage on widescreen TVs. So, yes, they used the cropping as a part of modernizing it to sell it to people.

A LOT of old DVDs were in 4:3, even if a movie was shot & in theaters in 16:9. No, it wasn't because viewers didn't like black bars (although, I can understand if they didn't. I'd rather things fill the full frame of the TV they're presented on when possible, but we don't live in the world that had 16:9 TVs from the jump), it was because, for TV, that was the standard. Old TV shows that were shot on film with the frames on the sides opened were the same way. They framed the shows in 4:3 because that was the standard at the time. Sure, you had shows future-proofed by leaving those frames open, but that wasn't the standard, nor did it become the standard till 2009. When HD & widescreen TVs became the standard, only then could we get shows created in that format originally rematted to 16:9. I mean, why else have the majority of shows shot on film been rereleased in 16:9? Hell, South Park's the only show created in 4:3 for its first 11 seasons that CAN actually be faithfully rematted to 16:9 successfully because the people who work there saved the original animation files for those episodes. Other animated shows? Nope. It just used to be how the TVs were formatted, so, to not create a jarring experience, films were cropped down to 4:3 back then on VHS & early DVDs. It was to conform to the standards for home TVs at the time. As soon as the standards started changing, they started releasing widescreen transfers on DVD, then had them on Blu-Ray & digital platforms. But, during the transition, film companies released them in both formats for a while to let people choose which they preferred watching. You're probably right to say that people probably preferred 4:3 at the time, but the companies put them out because the standards weren't completely changed yet. FUNi did it directly as a marketing tactic to modernize the show, though, which they basically admitted in their blogpost last year. Like, no other companies do that when making new releases of stuff that's in 4:3. DBZ is the only thing at all that FUNi's done that with too.

I didn't say the DNR was a thing for modernization. DNR is used to clean up the picture quality. However, they feel the need to get rid of the leftover grain, so they use a smearing tool, but they realize it looks awful, so they use sharpening tools. They want it to look like it was animated in the modern day to sell & they don't care what they have to do to do that, so they use these processes in the worst ways possible. The cropping is the nail in the coffin to that. Otherwise, even to hardcore fans, they wouldn't keep doing this shit. They'd release 1 definitive set that has actually good masters that they're then rerelease in different packaging if they cared more about artistic intent than money. Cropping something to an aspect ratio it wasn't created in, or intended to be seen in, when it's something that was 4:3 to widescreen is an attempt to modernize it. It's why Kai is in 16:9 too on TV & TFC. They reframed it to 16:9 for the TV airings to modernize it, which is also why Q-Tec & Toei also recolored it, removed a lot of the grain, & reanimated some frames. Otherwise Toei could've easily reanimated the entire series from the ground up with a continuity reboot of the anime, which they probably should've done so FUNi can finally stop making the original show look like shit. It's a combination of these things that add up to a shit product, not just the DNR. Have you never seen any proper analysis of any of FUNi's remasters of Z?

I mean, the point of a remaster/restoration is meant to preserve a thing in as high a quality as possible from the best quality masters as possible. Sailor Moon also suffers from a similar restoration process, except Viz didn't even have good masters to work with when they did, so I understand why that came out as bad as it did. FUNi purposefully makes their masters look like shit with their editing programs, even though they have really good masters (the screenshots of the raws they shared in the blogpost show they're really good quality, even for 3rd gen masters). So, no, FUNi don't get any credit for taking good film masters & turning them into shit, sorry. I'm not for partial credit when you purposefully fuck up so many times. That's not how I roll.

Thanks, I'll read your essay tomorrow but just from seeing you actually thought Kai was based on manga colours I'm tempted to assume everything else you think is waaaaaaaay off the mark too and so I just shouldn't read lol. I dunno, I'll see.

[Jhanzie]

The reason for pan and scan VHS and DVDs is because people were watching on SD sets that were on average a lot smaller than the modern HD set. You try and watch a movie that has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio on a 13” SD 4:3 TV and you will see why.

FUNimation thought they were doing good on the BD Season sets, by re-framing the picture 16:9, scene by scene. Getting a wider image on the left and right and centering the action in the frame, they were trying to make a modern version that filled up the widescreen. But Z is meant for 4:3. It looks better that way because the 16:9 looked cramped and even truncated in places. You can call the Season Sets an attempt at “modernization,” OR you can call it “re-versioning” as in, making a new version.

The DNR however was not an attempt to modernize, or eliminate film grain. It was to clean up the image to be presentable in HD. As I stated in my comment above, the 30th is a major improvement on the Season Sets. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy to milk the franchise, I think they just learned from their mistakes and did a better job. I would have been fine if they were a little less heavy handed on the video processing and let some of the film imperfections shine through, but at least it is better than it was, and IMO an enjoyable version to watch.

These are just my opinions. I grew up with the old CRT TVs and bought VCR tapes, including Dragon Ball. People wanted full screen home videos because they looked better on their home set. There was sometimes a letterbox option, but you had to either have a projector or a giant CRT TV that weighed about the same as a baby elephant to really enjoy these. Kids today don’t know how spoiled they are...