Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 15; Still Unreleased

[8000 Saiyan]

Looking at that article, I find it interesting that Ocean worked on a pilot of Inazuma Eleven. Honestly, if they had dubbed the whole series, it would have been a hell of a lot better than the actual dub.

What actual dub? The U.S one or the U.K one?

The Inazuma Eleven anime was dubbed in Hong Kong.

Yeah, and the results are earbleedingly awful.

[Tian]

Okay guys, I've got a question :
Is the channel that is gonna acquire Kai present in all the cable and satellite providers in Canada?

[8000 Saiyan]

Yeah, definitely.
That's why I'd like Okuma to come back; I think she could do a much better job with the idea that she was a human, rather than just being pure robot.

I don't think Okuma does voice acting anymore, so she probably won't play Android 18.

Oh yeah, and Scott shouldn't play Android 16 again. It was one of his worst roles in the franchise.

The voices I found the most cartoony when watching clips of their dub online are Brian Drummond as Vegeta, Scott McNeil as Piccolo, Krillin, Kami, Elder Kai, Frieza (same goes for Linda Young, who's just a bad pick & Chris Ayres is a MUCH better pick than either of them), & Peter Kalemis as Goku.

Sabat's Kami sounds cartoony as well.

Yet Ocean elitists will STILL argue that the American VAs don't hold a candle to their Canadian counterparts.

Well, there are some Funi voices that don't really compare to Ocean's IMO, like Recoome, Captain Ginyu, Jeice, Burter, Guldo, King Kai and Ox-King. Seriously, Sabat is intolerable as Recoome and so is Hebert as Ox-King.

Okay guys, I've got a question :
Is the channel that is gonna acquire Kai present in all the cable and satellite providers in Canada?

Not sure.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Okay guys, I've got a question :
Is the channel that is gonna acquire Kai present in all the cable and satellite providers in Canada?

All the major carriers offer the channel, however, fewer than 700k people actually subscribe to it (that number is probably <600k by now). Those interested will be able to get it, but it's far more obscure than any of the popular kids channels in Canada.

I also want to point out that nothing's confirmed about them picking up Kai. There's been some discussion between the channel and the parties involved, but I wouldn't start counting chicks before the eggs hatch.

[Robo4900]

Yeah, definitely.
That's why I'd like Okuma to come back; I think she could do a much better job with the idea that she was a human, rather than just being pure robot.

I don't think Okuma does voice acting anymore, so she probably won't play Android 18.

Ah, I see. That's a bit of a shame, I guess.
Still, I look forward to hearing whoever did get the role.

Oh yeah, and Scott shouldn't play Android 16 again. It was one of his worst roles in the franchise.

I think Scott could do a good #16, but if he did, he should do a vastly different take on him.

But, really, he has a lot of roles in the show, so I think giving this one to another actor may end up being for the better.

The voices I found the most cartoony

DRAGON BALL IS A CARTOON.

Apologies if that came off a bit rude, but man, it is a cartoon. The word "Anime" means cartoon. The only difference is that in English usage, it refers to cartoons produced in Japan. It's not a genre, it's just where it came from. Putting aside that superficial detail, all anime -- and thus, all the Dragon Ball shows -- are cartoons.
Not only that, but it's a goofy, silly, funny, crazy cartoon.
And if you're watching in Japanese, you'll notice most of the voices used there are very "Cartoony"; Goku, Kaio, Piccolo, Roshi, Kuririn...

My point is, I don't think referring to any given voices as "Cartoony" really means anything.

when watching clips of their dub online

Eh, clips rarely do justice. First off, you're not getting a proper feel for how the show is, and second off, the clips are usually awful quality.

Yet Ocean elitists will STILL argue that the American VAs don't hold a candle to their Canadian counterparts.

I mean, that's usually not the case, at least not to the degree you're making it out to be.
Generally, the attitude I see, and this is how I feel too, is that Funimation when they were dubbing Z back in the '90s and '00s, didn't hold a candle to the Canadian guys.
Nowadays, Funimation do good work, but until we get a feel for the Ocean actors' Kai performances, we can't really compare them. Still though, even once Ocean Kai is out, I think it's better to just say they're different. Funimation stepped up their game massively when they started Kai, so while I'll always have a preference for the Ocean crew, it's a matter of opinion, ultimately; generally, both sets of actors will provide a great take on the voice, but they'll generally be rather different takes. Which one is better? Doesn't matter, what matters is that we enjoy whichever version we enjoy, and accept that others will enjoy different versions more than we do.

There's nothing wrong with discussing the differences in the portrayals the actors decided on, but declaring one to be better or worse than the other as things are now is rather silly. And that does go for both sides of this. Though I will say, while there are some elitists who need to get over themselves on both sides, I don't think "Ocean elitists" are a real problem that plagues discussions of dubs. Every time I see a discussion of Dragon Ball dubbing, the responses to mentions of Funimation praise Chris Sabat, Sean Schemmel, et al. as gods, while lambasting Ocean as blasphemy or something.

[Dbzfan94]

The voices I found the most cartoony when watching clips of their dub online are Brian Drummond as Vegeta, Scott McNeil as Piccolo, Krillin, Kami, Elder Kai, Frieza (same goes for Linda Young, who's just a bad pick & Chris Ayres is a MUCH better pick than either of them), & Peter Kalemis as Goku.

Sabat's Kami sounds cartoony as well.

As Robo said, Dragon Ball is a cartoon. Cartoonish voices in a cartoon shouldn't be a shock. The Japanese version has them too.

[8000 Saiyan]

The voices I found the most cartoony when watching clips of their dub online are Brian Drummond as Vegeta, Scott McNeil as Piccolo, Krillin, Kami, Elder Kai, Frieza (same goes for Linda Young, who's just a bad pick & Chris Ayres is a MUCH better pick than either of them), & Peter Kalemis as Goku.

Sabat's Kami sounds cartoony as well.

As Robo said, Dragon Ball is a cartoon. Cartoonish voices in a cartoon shouldn't be a shock. The Japanese version has them too.

Yeah, I know.

What I was telling Scsigs is that Sabat's Kami also sounds cartoony as well.

[Dbzfan94]

Sabat's Kami sounds cartoony as well.

As Robo said, Dragon Ball is a cartoon. Cartoonish voices in a cartoon shouldn't be a shock. The Japanese version has them too.

Yeah, I know.

What I was telling Scsigs is that Sabat's Kami also sounds cartoony as well.

I know that. I can see your post. But I'm saying to both of you that something like "it sounds cartoony" isnt a criticism.

[Scsigs]

As Robo said, Dragon Ball is a cartoon. Cartoonish voices in a cartoon shouldn't be a shock. The Japanese version has them too.

Yeah, I know.

What I was telling Scsigs is that Sabat's Kami also sounds cartoony as well.

I know that. I can see your post. But I'm saying to both of you that something like "it sounds cartoony" isnt a criticism.

It feels like a criticism though. The Animation Age Ghetto trope exists for a reason, as a "cartoony" feel to something can mean that it's not gonna be taken as seriously as it probably should.
Not only that, but usually something feeling "cartoony" is used in such a derisive manner when critiquing something in media.

[Jean0987654321]

As Robo said, Dragon Ball is a cartoon. Cartoonish voices in a cartoon shouldn't be a shock. The Japanese version has them too.

Yeah, I know.

What I was telling Scsigs is that Sabat's Kami also sounds cartoony as well.

I know that. I can see your post. But I'm saying to both of you that something like "it sounds cartoony" isnt a criticism.

This

[Arian]

Wow, I've been reading some of you guys' posts and I think the bar is being raised so high, all of you are going to sigh in disappointment when you see the final product.

All this talk of "Oooh, they have to say "Nah-mek" instead of "Nam-ek" or "Sai-yan" instead of "Sei-yen." If anything, it should be "Saiya-jin." anyway. Look, no matter what changes they make to this thing, part of the reason we're watching it is because it's still Dragon Ball Z, the show we remember, so it has to be somewhat familiar. If they start saying something as awkward as "Sai-yan" and are constantly shoehorning in pronunciations to impress the highest order of Dragon Ball nerdism, the same way the FUNimation dub of Kai did, you can expect a few eyerolls from me if nothing else.

In fact, I sympathize with Scott McNeil if he's getting frustrated with all of the forced changes because when you force things like that, they won't come out organically.

And as for the "cartoony" thing, I'm going to make this brief as I don't want to entertain the notion that absolutely everything TVTropes says is gospel. The reason why animation is so charming is because it can be so wacky and out of this world at times. The fact that not only people on the street, but even some producers are saying that actors should always "Keep it real," is incredibly stupid." You're not always going to relate to the subject matter anyway, so what does it matter? And quite frankly, I subscribe to hear that delightfully devilish tone in Brian Drummond's Vegeta voice. It's not going to sound the same this time around, which I'm a little disappointed by but hey, you do what they want at that end of the day. So when you say, "This is cartoony and hokey," don't speak for all of us.

Okay guys, I've got a question :
Is the channel that is gonna acquire Kai present in all the cable and satellite providers in Canada?

All the major carriers offer the channel, however, fewer than 700k people actually subscribe to it (that number is probably <600k by now). Those interested will be able to get it, but it's far more obscure than any of the popular kids channels in Canada.

Ehh, even then that's still subject to change. Remember when Cartoon Network first came here? I think only like 2 out every 6 providers had it. Bell makes the rules when it comes to their channels and they usually don't hesitate to screw the consumer over. So just because Comedy Gold is on every provider now, they can switch out the channel with another one, take the new channel and make it exclusive to Bell's Fibe service if they wanted to.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Ehh, even then that's still subject to change. Remember when Cartoon Network first came here? I think only like 2 out every 6 providers had it. Bell makes the rules when it comes to their channels and they usually don't hesitate to screw the consumer over. So just because Comedy Gold is on every provider now, they can switch out the channel with another one, take the new channel and make it exclusive to Bell's Fibe service if they wanted to.

The only reason someone would buy Comedy Gold is for its channel space. The brand is obviously going to get tossed and so will all of its programming. A broadcast license from the CRTC isn't that hard or expensive (for a business) to procure. Yeah, I guess there's a tiny chance that Bell sells Wow just the license and gives them the channel space of something in even fewer homes, but I really doubt that. At that point, why not just start the channel from scratch?

Cartoon Network was a newly licensed service, not a re-brand of an existing one. New services have to negotiate with the cable companies for carriage. If the channel's already in the system, old ones only negotiate extensions. Though, I guess the switch in audience might leave the carriers a bit flatfooted (I'm sure Comedy Gold is in bundles that won't be relevant post-rebrand) but I imagine they'll probably stay on board since Wow's channel should be more appealing than ancient sitcom reruns. Carriage contracts are usually negotiated every 5 years, so they might not even be up for a while.

[Danfun64]

Wow, I've been reading some of you guys' posts and I think the bar is being raised so high, all of you are going to sigh in disappointment when you see the final product.

Worst case scenario would be Ocean Kai having acting on par with the earliest period of AB Groupe Westwood as well as a script that clearly takes cues from Funi Kai (including any inaccuracies it has) but more often then not actually makes things less accurate (think the first couple sagas of Blue Water DB). Even then, it wouldn't be a horrible dub. The acting will never reach the levels of bad that Speedy had, and the script will never have the level of vagueness and confusion that a "pure" dub based off the pre-Kai French dub (like Big Green) had.

[Robo4900]

It feels like a criticism though. The Animation Age Ghetto trope exists for a reason, as a "cartoony" feel to something can mean that it's not gonna be taken as seriously as it probably should.
Not only that, but usually something feeling "cartoony" is used in such a derisive manner when critiquing something in media.

That animation age ghetto trope exists because of snobbery; certain closed-minded people think anything bright, colourful, funny, or at all silly, goofy, or otherwise zany in any way is for children. Y'know what I call media produced with that attitude? Boring.
However, it's become so ingrained that the word "Cartoon" or "Animated" immediately evokes "Oh, it's for children, then." for a lot of people. Anime and shows like Futurama, Rick And Morty, and South Park(And you should know this) are changing this, but people continuing to use "Cartoony" as a term of criticism just perpetuates this nonsensical attitude, and devalues the work actors like Billy West, Peter Kelamis, Scott McNeil, or -- back in the day -- Mel Blanc put into characterising their numerous roles.

All this talk of "Oooh, they have to say "Nah-mek" instead of "Nam-ek" or "Sai-yan" instead of "Sei-yen." If anything, it should be "Saiya-jin." anyway. Look, no matter what changes they make to this thing, part of the reason we're watching it is because it's still Dragon Ball Z, the show we remember, so it has to be somewhat familiar. If they start saying something as awkward as "Sai-yan" and are constantly shoehorning in pronunciations to impress the highest order of Dragon Ball nerdism, the same way the FUNimation dub of Kai did, you can expect a few eyerolls from me if nothing else.

In fact, I sympathize with Scott McNeil if he's getting frustrated with all of the forced changes because when you force things like that, they won't come out organically.

There's nothing wrong with pronouncing things correctly.
Remember, Ocean pronounced Kaioken correctly before anyone else. And also remember, Ocean's actors are professionals of the highest order; they're used to making challenging dialogue sound natural, like many of the Shakespearean actors you get in Star Trek and Star Wars, and just like with Star Trek, Star Wars, and any good production of Shakespeare, the actors' ability to make this often rather clunky dialogue sound natural is a good part of why this will be enjoyable in the end.
Anyway, I think McNeil was partially joking about this(At his panels, usually everything he says is coated in a layer of sarcasm, irony, or some other form of joking); while I imagine it's probably a pet peeve that bugged him a little at first(IIRC he even said as much), I doubt it really bothers him much at all. At the very least, I doubt a small quibble about a word being pronounced differently this time around would affect his performance in the show at all.

So, while I can understand you not caring about them "Changing" the pronunciations(Though, really it's Funimation who changed the pronunciations; Ocean are just fixing them), actively getting annoyed about this is just a bit silly.

(Also, Saiya-jin isn't correct in English, and never will be. Jin, in this conext, effectively means "Person", so Saiya Person. Except, that's pretty clunky, and reads rather stilted, a bit like if I called you an "Earth person". It comes off much more naturally to say you're an Earthling, or a human. Thus, Saiyan. How the "Sai" sound got changed to a "Sei" sound is anyone's guess, but it most certainly is an inaccurate pronunciation. Rather like if people pronounced Bulma as "Bulmar", or Vegeta as "Vee jet ah")

And as for the "cartoony" thing, I'm going to make this brief as I don't want to entertain the notion that absolutely everything TVTropes says is gospel. The reason why animation is so charming is because it can be so wacky and out of this world at times. The fact that not only people on the street, but even some producers are saying that actors should always "Keep it real," is incredibly stupid." You're not always going to relate to the subject matter anyway, so what does it matter? And quite frankly, I subscribe to hear that delightfully devilish tone in Brian Drummond's Vegeta voice. It's not going to sound the same this time around, which I'm a little disappointed by but hey, you do what they want at that end of the day. So when you say, "This is cartoony and hokey," don't speak for all of us.

Well said.
Though, I will also add that I think we definitely can relate to the subject matter; the thing about cartoons is that they exist in a space similar to sci-fi shows like Star Trek in that they can take us to places we never could be taken to in a straight, present-day setting, and through that, deliver us a scenario that's relatable to us, but at the same time can exist in an imaginative, wonderous new world, often far more visually impressive than a more "Real" show would be.
Prime example: The Futurama episode "Jurassic Bark".

[Scsigs]

It feels like a criticism though. The Animation Age Ghetto trope exists for a reason, as a "cartoony" feel to something can mean that it's not gonna be taken as seriously as it probably should.
Not only that, but usually something feeling "cartoony" is used in such a derisive manner when critiquing something in media.

That animation age ghetto trope exists because of snobbery; certain closed-minded people think anything bright, colourful, funny, or at all silly, goofy, or otherwise zany in any way is for children. Y'know what I call media produced with that attitude? Boring.
However, it's become so ingrained that the word "Cartoon" or "Animated" immediately evokes "Oh, it's for children, then." for a lot of people. Anime and shows like Futurama, Rick And Morty, and South Park(And you should know this) are changing this, but people continuing to use "Cartoony" as a term of criticism just perpetuates this nonsensical attitude, and devalues the work actors like Billy West, Peter Kelamis, Scott McNeil, or -- back in the day -- Mel Blanc put into characterising their numerous roles.

I know. I'm not saying being "cartony" is an inherently bad thing, especially when material calls for it, but there are a lot of people that still won't give cartoons the time of day because of them. Hell, I don't think there's been a ton of 2D animated films here in the west that have hit theaters for more than a few nights or a Fathom event (or however you spell that word), which is a shame because 2D animation is still used constantly in TV animation & direct-to-DVD projects. All animated films in this day & age are CGI animated, which I'm not against, but there's not a lot of 2D films that get put into theaters outside of an event. I hate that that trope has to be a thing. I have nothing against something being cartoony as long as it's good (though the moves of the likes of Cartoon Network with shows like Teen Titans Go don't really help matters, though).

[Robo4900]

I know. I'm not saying being "cartony" is an inherently bad thing, especially when material calls for it, but there are a lot of people that still won't give cartoons the time of day because of them.

And those people won't care about Dragon Ball, and really aren't worth the effort anyway; either they'll relax and learn to have fun someday, or they'll die as closed-minded fools. Either way, attempting to accomodate outdated views on what animation can achieve doesn't help anybody.

Hell, I don't think there's been a ton of 2D animated films here in the west that have hit theaters for more than a few nights or a Fathom event (or however you spell that word), which is a shame because 2D animation is still used constantly in TV animation & direct-to-DVD projects. All animated films in this day & age are CGI animated, which I'm not against, but there's not a lot of 2D films that get put into theaters outside of an event. I hate that that trope has to be a thing. I have nothing against something being cartoony as long as it's good (though the moves of the likes of Cartoon Network with shows like Teen Titans Go don't really help matters, though).

Right. Good. Now, let's move on and agree to not use "Cartoony" as a point of criticism of any kind.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Wow, I've been reading some of you guys' posts and I think the bar is being raised so high, all of you are going to sigh in disappointment when you see the final product.

At this point, I'm treating it as a pleasant surprise if we even see the final product at all. I'd be lying if I said recent developments haven't raised my hopes a teeny bit, but I remain convinced that the odds are still pretty slim (to put it generously) that we'll see it at all, never mind if it's good or not.

For that matter, I certainly haven't forgotten that, if we do see it, it's going to be a censored dub with a replaced musical score. Still, even though I'm sure some performances will be sub-par, I have a hard time imagining that certain performances (like McNeil as Piccolo and Drummond as Vegeta) will be bad. They might be, but I'd be surprised if that was the case. Even if it's in a censored dub with a replaced musical score, the prospect of hearing some of the original cast members get back in the saddle again is exciting. Who knows, in some cases they might be better. McNeil said that he thinks his Piccolo voice has actually gotten better with age because there's "a few more years of junk in the throat," which produced what he thinks is a more gravelly, badass sound.

Right. Good. Now, let's move on and agree to not use "Cartoony" as a point of criticism of any kind.

Well, that term certainly can be used as a criticism, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. It can be used simply as a way of describing a style of acting. I can tell you that, in the professional voice acting world, voice actors get audition notices for cartoons all the time where the producers say in the audition instructions, "We want it real, like it was an on-camera project, nothing too cartoony please." That's not what they put in all the audition specs, of course, I'm just saying that it's not uncommon to see a note to that effect. The producers aren't even criticizing "cartoony" shows when they put that in the audition notes, they're just telling the actors that that's not the style of acting they're going for.

To give you a further idea, if you're in a major market where they record for big-name cartoons and video games (like Los Angeles, Vancouver, NYC, etc.), many voice actors are encouraged to have separate "video game" character demos and "animation" character demos, with the unspoken generality being that "video game" is code for "realistic," and "animation" is code for "cartoony/over-the-top."

I guess the reason one sees that term popping up when discussing Dragon Ball is because, in both the dub and the original version, there are performances that are more realistic, and performances that are more cartoony. The fact that they don't go all the way with either style might make some performances sound more jarring than they otherwise might.

[8000 Saiyan]

If the dub is like Death Note or like Black Lagoon, then I don't think there will be any sub-par performances in the Ocean Kai dub. I don't recall a bad voice in those two dubs.

McNeil said that he thinks his Piccolo voice has actually gotten better with age because there's "a few more years of junk in the throat," which produced what he thinks is a more gravelly, badass sound.

You mean something like this?
https://twitter.com/VoiceOfNitro/status ... 8693053441

[Robo4900]

If the dub is like Death Note or like Black Lagoon, then I don't think there will be any sub-par performances in the Ocean Kai dub. I don't recall a bad voice in those two dubs.

I think expecting another Death Note or Black Lagoon is setting yourself up for disappointment.
I imagine the performances may well be on a similar level, but I'm not sure; I haven't seen Black Lagoon myself, but I know Death Note has a fairly small cast -- a lot of the best episodes have only 5 or 6 characters actively doing anything, and in total, I wouldn't be surprised if there were less than 20 different voices in each episode, most of the time.
Meanwhile, Dragon Ball is a massive ensemble. I don't think every voice will be perfect, but I'm sure the majority will be rather excellent, and that while this almost certainly won't be a perfect dub by a long shot, it will almost certainly be a highly entertaining watch full of memorable performances. And really, I think that's all any of us want in the first place.

You mean something like this?
https://twitter.com/VoiceOfNitro/status ... 8693053441

I think he was deliberately doing a slightly different take on the Piccolo voice there. If you hear him at a panel or anything, his Piccolo voice tends to sound a lot like he did in the Pioneer days. That video sounds a lot more hard-edged and exaggerated than he was, even in the old days.
I imagine, since he'll be starting from Raditz again here, he'll probably be a little more hard-edged than his normal con voice for Piccolo at first, and soften it a little as time goes on. I predict he'll do a bit of a Westwood-esque voice for Piccolo after he and Kami have fused, where he's still undeniably Piccolo, but most of the rasp is gone, and he's in general a lot more calm-sounding, despite still definitely being the same old Piccolo we remember.

[OutlawTorn]

Okay guys, I've got a question :
Is the channel that is gonna acquire Kai present in all the cable and satellite providers in Canada?

All the major carriers offer the channel, however, fewer than 700k people actually subscribe to it (that number is probably <600k by now). Those interested will be able to get it, but it's far more obscure than any of the popular kids channels in Canada.

I can't seem to find a reference to what this channel is. What is the potential channel which may be carrying it?