Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[VegettoEX]

Honestly anyone who doesn't think Buu >>> Piccolo doesn't know how to read and understand a fictional story.

It really is not necessary to respond this way. Rather than dismissing the audience you're trying to convince, perhaps there's another way to phrase it to actually convince them and get them on your side? These kinds of responses do nothing more than solidify every preconception about strength debates. Be the change that's necessary here.

[namekiansaiyan]

I think Frost was not weakened that much and looked completely fine against Piccolo and Vegeta. Frost could not escape Piccolo' grip which to me says that Piccolo is closer to Frost than he was to Raditz and because he was charging with one hand and blocking with the other.

Just because Goku implies Buu is stronger than Piccolo means nothing as he also said Piccolo could not beat Frost and was obviously wrong.

[Hellspawn28]

Piccolo's Mankankosappo at full power could beat Buu. Frost said the attack could kill him if the attack hit him. I think months of training help Piccolo learn to control and make a stronger Mankankosappo.

[LowRyder2005]

Piccolo's Mankankosappo at full power could beat Buu. Frost said the attack could kill him if the attack hit him. I think months of training help Piccolo learn to control and make a stronger Mankankosappo.

Wouldn't Buu just regenerate effortlessly? I mean, ideally, you'd need two conditions for Piccolo to beat Buu:

1. He'd have to be comfortably around SS3 tier.
Well, as usual, this alone looks kind of a stretch. Piccolo would have obtained bigger gains in six months with a weakened Gohan (leaving aside the fact that, in the anime continuity, Goku is already supposed to be ahead of his son in light of those dreaded "Kid Buu is the strongest Buu ever" statements) than in eight years or so solo.
Maybe a sparring partner was what he had lacked in the years between Cell and Buu? If that's the case, the usual question: why didn't he train in the ROSAT with Gotenks for a year to become perfectly capable of handling Fat Buu back in the day, in the first place?
More or less, if you piece all these infos and suppositions together, it looks pretty much like Piccolo reached his plateau after his ROSAT training before the Cell Game, and he has very little room for improvement left.

2. He'd need a Kamehameha-esque/ Super Ghost Kamikaze-like attack (he has it: the somewhat iconic Makūhōidan/ Hellzone Grenade).

Power debates aside, the Makankosappo looks like the least indicated method to inflict some real damage to Buu. Again though, given the framework we have grown accustomed to, it sounds very improbable that Piccolo has the sheer power to take the pink blob down to begin with.

[ssbgoku]

About Picoolo and Mr buu debeate. well I believe Picoolo is still below Mr. buu due to:

1) goku still wanting to take a Mr. buu even after goku has felt enraged rof ssj gohan's power before he lost consciense. Keep in mind that Picoolo was only about as strong as base gohan.

2) Bascially for Picoolo to would be at least close to Mr. Buu Picoolo would have to get 50 times stronger(ssj multiplier), which is hardy imaginable without plot power. I mean we have seen Picoolo having barerly upperhand against base gohan after 8 months training and while he may be a not fully serious and going all out he isn't far from his power level as it still took some efforts from them.

3) Goku has never noted of Picoolo suprassing gohan or even gohan suprassing his enraged ssj's scream for help against freeza. Moreover Goku even told Picoolo straight away that he has no chance against Tired/Beaten up Final form Frost.

Keep all these points in mind, I believe all u6 participants are below ssj vegito level expect hit. Here How I see them

ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden freeza
------ssj vegetto-------------
ssj goku/vegeta
------base vegetto--------------
enraged ssj2 vegeta - base vegetto
rage boost ssj cabba/Magenta - buutenks tier
Final form Frost/ssj cabba - super buu tier
Final form Freeza - bog ssj3 power
kid buu(uub)
base goku/vegeta ~ Mr buu
Restricted ff Frost,base cabba - ssj2 goku/vegeta(buu arc)
Assault form Frost - Super Perfect Cell
Picoolo - buu arc ssj tier
base gohan
First form Frost - Imperfect Cell
Botamo - Android 18

Here how I see it.Also just worth to note,both Picoolo and gohan have been shown getting weaker over time as they stopped or limited training until 8 months where they are traning from scratch which means Picoolo would fall down to Semi-Perfect cell or even below but still could raise to above Perfect cell or close to this.

[SansrivaaL]

Boo>>>>Piccolo, he fought a Frost that got his ass handed to him by Goku, how people think that did nothing is beyond me.
Anime just wanted to add all this nostalgia moves like how Vegeta fired his galick gun which is weird cause the last time he used that canon wise was his fight against Goku, I tend to see the manga being closer to how AT wanted super to unfold. No nostalgia moves besides the saiyan stance and it feels more dbish imo anyways, Piccolo in the manga wasnt as delusional.

[Khin]

Base Goku and Vegeta [Episode 18] had reached the level where they can sense the Ki of Beerus and Whis.Which is something not even SSj3 Goku can't,who is way stronger than Mr.Buu.A stronger version of Base Goku in Champa Arc was more or less on par with Assault Form Frost.Piccolo did pretty well against a tired Final Form Frost,who Vegeta still need SSJ to beat.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."

If high battle power is required to sense Beerus and Whis' ki,then SSJ3 Goku [BoG] < Base Goku | Vegeta [Pre RoF] < Base Goku | Vegeta [RoF] < Piccolo ? [Champa Arc] < Base Goku | Vegeta [Champa Arc] < SSJ Cabba

SSJ Cabba can sense God ki.

Context : Vegeta turns SSB and said Cabba might be able to reach this level someday.
Cabba : "I could gain this much power ?"

[apex_pretador]

Well, like I said a couple of times in the last months, what is stated is the very contrary: Gohan says he is still getting the basics done with Piccolo's help in the anime (literally "I'm having Piccolo-san retrain me from scratch right now"), so the theory he may have suddenly become stronger than ever isn't very convincing. I mean, the fact that Piccolo is still retraining him from scratch makes it sound like he's still in the refresher course phase.

Piccolo being above Buu, strictly speaking, is not impossible, just very hard to believe. At least given how the narrative treated one and how it treated the other.

That could be about skills and fighting ability, unless gohan somehow regressed below 1307. Gohan also said he was "excited" to show his result of training to goku, who has already seen mystic gohan

If he is less skillfull and has less fighting ability, you yourself are pretty much suggesting he's weaker.

Moreover, we know for a fact that Goku himself was aware of Gohan's regression as a fighter, so even if Gohan wanted to test the results of his training and put them in practice it doesn't prove pretty much anything but Gohan assessing he was stronger than his ROF self.

No, not necessarily. "Mystic" gohan wasn't necessarily very skilled. He just happened to have a big power advantage over super buu, that's it.

And it doesn't make sense for gohan to say "Hey dad, you know what? I have achieved a power level 33.75% of what I had 5 years ago, and I want to show you the amazing result. "

About Picoolo and Mr buu debeate. well I believe Picoolo is still below Mr. buu due to:

let's see:

1) goku still wanting to take a Mr. buu even after goku has felt enraged rof ssj gohan's power before he lost consciense. Keep in mind that Picoolo was only about as strong as base gohan.

That doesn't mean that enraged SS gohan is below mr buu, because goku's reason for not taking gohan was that he doesn't like to fight. Goku preferred piccolo over gohan (Before he knew gohan was training) so does that mean piccolo > enraged gohan by same logic?
Aslo, nothing puts base gohan and piccolo on the same level of power. Given how it was piccolo who volunteered to fight tagoma, even after the latter nearly killed gohan, I'd say piccolo is superior.

2) Bascially for Picoolo to would be at least close to Mr. Buu Picoolo would have to get 50 times stronger(ssj multiplier), which is hardy imaginable without plot power

Mr buu is NOT 50 times stronger than piccolo, not even close.
Mr buu is FAR below a buu arc SS3 goku, who is only 8x SS goku (buu arc) if we are going by multipliers.
Piccolo is far above POST ROSAT trunks. So, unless goku SS is atleast 20 times stronger than post rosat SS trunks, this is not possible.
BoG base goku is below freeza, and SS kid trunks is easily 5x namek freeza, which puts piccolo atleast 8x freeza.
SS3 goku BoG , who is less than 400x Freeza, is heavily implied to be above gotenks & gohan.
So, even mystic gohan is not 50x piccolo.

. I mean we have seen Picoolo having barerly upperhand against base gohan after 8 months training and while he may be a not fully serious and going all out he isn't far from his power level as it still took some efforts from them.

Do we know how strong base gohan is? It is heavily implied by gohan that he might be above his buu arc level.
Quite possible that it is SS gohan, but that makes base gohan a beast too.

3) Goku has never noted of Picoolo suprassing gohan or even gohan suprassing his enraged ssj's scream for help against freeza. Moreover Goku even told Picoolo straight away that he has no chance against Tired/Beaten up Final form Frost.

Strength increases aren't always noted when a character is too weak to even compare to themselves. See how piccolo doesn't even notice krillin's over 20x increase in namek arc? Or no one notices tien & Yamcha's supposedly huge increase post kaio training?
Also, goku's statement that piccolo doesn't stand a chance against frost straight - up nullifies the point of using piccolo as a basis for putting U6 low.

ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden freeza
------ssj vegetto-------------
ssj goku/vegeta
------base vegetto--------------
enraged ssj2 vegeta - base vegetto
rage boost ssj cabba/Magenta - buutenks tier
Final form Frost/ssj cabba - super buu tier
Final form Freeza - bog ssj3 power
kid buu(uub)
base goku/vegeta ~ Mr buu
Restricted ff Frost,base cabba - ssj2 goku/vegeta(buu arc)
Assault form Frost - Super Perfect Cell
Picoolo - buu arc ssj tier
base gohan
First form Frost - Imperfect Cell
Botamo - Android 18

Base goku at mr buu tier and FF freeza BOG SS3 tier? They were more or less even.
BoG SS3 > Gohan > Gotenks (who will kill mr buu with a sneeze)

Also, assault form frost had the upper hand on base goku, so he must be atleast on the same level as him. I'm also interested on where you'll put tagoma, ginyu , 1st FF , 2nd FF, 3rd FF.

Here how I see it.Also just worth to note,both Picoolo and gohan have been shown getting weaker over time as they stopped or limited training until 8 months where they are traning from scratch which means Picoolo would fall down to Semi-Perfect cell or even below but still could raise to above Perfect cell or close to this.

[/quote]
Piccolo has NEVER gotten weaker. Piccolo always trains, as stated by AT , and at BoG, he is far above SS trunks

[LowRyder2005]

No, not necessarily. "Mystic" gohan wasn't necessarily very skilled. He just happened to have a big power advantage over super buu, that's it.

And it doesn't make sense for gohan to say "Hey dad, you know what? I have achieved a power level 33.75% of what I had 5 years ago, and I want to show you the amazing result. "

I rewatched the scene just in case:

1. Not even once in the two minutes of his appearence does Gohan say he wants to show Goku the results of his training: the only time he says something similar is, while muttering to himself, when he's pondering on the "conference vs. tournament" dilemma. I wanted to see the results of my training. And this just means that he's stronger than what he was during the last time we saw him (a.k.a. ROF).

3. What wouldn't make a lick of sense wouldn't be, in this case, the fact that he potentially wanted to show Goku that he was less puny than at the time of Freeza's resurrection. It would be a pretty legitimate reason, in fact.
What wouldn't make a lick of sense would be Gohan saying he is STILL GETTING RETRAINED FROM SCRATCH - by someone who is weaker than him, by the way - when he's not in the "scratch phase", alas, he's stronger than ever so he's done the scratch and way more.

It's as expository as it gets.
If you hit back the gym after X years and you are starting your program "back from scratch" how can you possibly expect your interlocutor to infer that you are stronger and faster then ever? You are still implying you are gradually getting back on the top. At most you can... very liberally... argue that he's at some 50%, 70% of his former power. Then again, to me it would make more sense if he was at some 10% (this is what I'd call being in the "let's get back to the basics phase").

Not saying that you can't find some... more eccentric explanation, but let's try to stay intellectually honest here. It's pretty much crystal-clear that Gohan meant that he was still on the way to reach his top. Therefore, putting him ahead of his Chou form from the Buu Arc, his established all-time peak, is extremely dubious.

[LowRyder2005]

So, trying to put everything in a Kid Buu > Super Buu framework for the anime.

Scale = 1 : 1,000,000,000

-------------- Z Framework -----------------
Super Vegito: 650
Buuhan: 360
Buutenks: 280
SS3 Goku (100%; can't reach without anyone buying time): 250
Chou Gohan: 200
Kid Buu: 155 **** (you can move Kid Buu and Goku's 100% above Buuhan if you prefer the more literal/deontological Kid Buu > all Buus interpretation)
SS3 Goku: 150
Super Buu: 150
Gotenks SS3: 130
Fat Buu: 20
Majin Vegeta: 13.5
SS Gotenks (pre): 12.5 (* Daizenshuu)
SS2 Gohan (Cell Game): 13
Good Buu: 9
SP Cell: 7.5
Perfect Cell: 7
SS Gohan (Cell Game): 6.5
SS Goku (Cell Game): 6
SS Gohan (Buu Arc): 4.8
Dabra: 4.75

Cell Jr.: 4
SS Vegeta (Cell Game): 3.75
Piccolo (Cell Game): 3
Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta: 2.8
Semi-Perfect Cell: 2
#16: 1.5
Imperfect Cell (empowered): 1.45
Piccolo (fused with Kami): 1
#17: 0.96
#18: 0.82
Imperfect Cell (vs. Piccolo): 0.75

------------- Super Framework -----------------

------------ Realm of Gods ------------
Whis/ Vados: Much higher
Beerus: 135,000
Champa: 128,000
Goku SS Blue + Kaioken * 10: 100,000
Hit: 90,000 (end of the fight)
Golden Freeza: 12,000
Goku/ Vegeta SS Blue: 10,000
Goku (SSG): 8,000
Beerus (BOG; Goku's estimation): 6,000
SS3 Vegito (BOG; Goku's estimation): 5,000

------------ Mid to High Z-tier ------------
SS Vegito (Buu Arc): 650
Super Buu-Gohan (Buu Arc): 360
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry) + Galick Gun: 210 (note: 0.168% of Beerus, he tanks him by shooting up to 7.5% without giving it too much thought)
BOG's SS3 Goku (pre-training): 160
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; full power): 100 (note: used by Vegeta to defeat Magetta, who just happens to be impervious to damage)
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry): 70
Base Goku/ Vegeta (post-training/ powered-up): 65 (note: this is the base Goku that fights Fourth Form Freeza)
Chou Gohan (BOG): 58
Final Form Freeza: 55
SS Cabbe: 30 (note: I've seen the argument that he has to be stronger than SS3 Goku. My opinion so far is that, since it's never directly stated that he can sense God ki, he may have simply realized Vegeta was so strong he couldn't sense him, hence the "hey, he must be abnormally strong if I can't sense his ki... I can become this strong too?")

------------ Low to mid Z-tier ------------
SS Gotenks: 16
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; vs. Frost, Magetta and Cabba; 10%): 10
Mr. Buu: 9
Magetta: 8.5
Final Form Frost: 8
First Form Freeza (ROF): 7.5
***** Piccolo's Makankosappo: 6
SS Gohan (ROF): 4.5
Ginyu (Tagoma's body): 3.9
Final Form Frost (weakened/ tired): 3.8
Tagoma: 3.75
Assault Form Frost: 3.5
Piccolo (all sagas, minor variations): 3.4
Goku/ Vegeta (Base/ post-training): 2
SS Trunks: 1.2
SS Goten: 1.15
Cabbe: 0.6
First Form Frost: 0.22
BOG's Goku (Base/ pre-training): 0.4 (note: yeah, turns out he's about three times stronger than Freeza. Surprised? Let me preface this by saying that the "below Freeza" scenario works way better in the conservative framework of the manga; in the anime you need to have at least the Kid > Super or Kid > Buuhan rule, and I found it's almost impossible to reconcile it with Goku being below Freeza, unless you theorize something like Gotenks being incredibly weak)
Botamo: 0.075

Some things may change (SSBlue + KK, Beerus and Champa, especially), but all in all I'd say my headcanon is now pretty much in order. I'd still go for a Super > Kid scenario in the manga, though.

[Mattias_]

Piccolo ピッコロ - 890,000,000 (Without weights max. power versus Frost)

Majin Bu 魔人ブウ - 9,500,000,000


Makankosappo can't kills Majin Bu at all, guys!!

[ssbgoku]

About Picoolo and Mr buu debeate. well I believe Picoolo is still below Mr. buu due to:

let's see:

1) goku still wanting to take a Mr. buu even after goku has felt enraged rof ssj gohan's power before he lost consciense. Keep in mind that Picoolo was only about as strong as base gohan.

That doesn't mean that enraged SS gohan is below mr buu, because goku's reason for not taking gohan was that he doesn't like to fight. Goku preferred piccolo over gohan (Before he knew gohan was training) so does that mean piccolo > enraged gohan by same logic?
Aslo, nothing puts base gohan and piccolo on the same level of power. Given how it was piccolo who volunteered to fight tagoma, even after the latter nearly killed gohan, I'd say piccolo is superior.

2) Bascially for Picoolo to would be at least close to Mr. Buu Picoolo would have to get 50 times stronger(ssj multiplier), which is hardy imaginable without plot power

Mr buu is NOT 50 times stronger than piccolo, not even close.
Mr buu is FAR below a buu arc SS3 goku, who is only 8x SS goku (buu arc) if we are going by multipliers.
Piccolo is far above POST ROSAT trunks. So, unless goku SS is atleast 20 times stronger than post rosat SS trunks, this is not possible.
BoG base goku is below freeza, and SS kid trunks is easily 5x namek freeza, which puts piccolo atleast 8x freeza.
SS3 goku BoG , who is less than 400x Freeza, is heavily implied to be above gotenks & gohan.
So, even mystic gohan is not 50x piccolo.

. I mean we have seen Picoolo having barerly upperhand against base gohan after 8 months training and while he may be a not fully serious and going all out he isn't far from his power level as it still took some efforts from them.

Do we know how strong base gohan is? It is heavily implied by gohan that he might be above his buu arc level.
Quite possible that it is SS gohan, but that makes base gohan a beast too.

3) Goku has never noted of Picoolo suprassing gohan or even gohan suprassing his enraged ssj's scream for help against freeza. Moreover Goku even told Picoolo straight away that he has no chance against Tired/Beaten up Final form Frost.

Strength increases aren't always noted when a character is too weak to even compare to themselves. See how piccolo doesn't even notice krillin's over 20x increase in namek arc? Or no one notices tien & Yamcha's supposedly huge increase post kaio training?
Also, goku's statement that piccolo doesn't stand a chance against frost straight - up nullifies the point of using piccolo as a basis for putting U6 low.

ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden freeza
------ssj vegetto-------------
ssj goku/vegeta
------base vegetto--------------
enraged ssj2 vegeta - base vegetto
rage boost ssj cabba/Magenta - buutenks tier
Final form Frost/ssj cabba - super buu tier
Final form Freeza - bog ssj3 power
kid buu(uub)
base goku/vegeta ~ Mr buu
Restricted ff Frost,base cabba - ssj2 goku/vegeta(buu arc)
Assault form Frost - Super Perfect Cell
Picoolo - buu arc ssj tier
base gohan
First form Frost - Imperfect Cell
Botamo - Android 18

Base goku at mr buu tier and FF freeza BOG SS3 tier? They were more or less even.
BoG SS3 > Gohan > Gotenks (who will kill mr buu with a sneeze)

Also, assault form frost had the upper hand on base goku, so he must be atleast on the same level as him. I'm also interested on where you'll put tagoma, ginyu , 1st FF , 2nd FF, 3rd FF.

Here how I see it.Also just worth to note,both Picoolo and gohan have been shown getting weaker over time as they stopped or limited training until 8 months where they are traning from scratch which means Picoolo would fall down to Semi-Perfect cell or even below but still could raise to above Perfect cell or close to this.

Piccolo has NEVER gotten weaker. Piccolo always trains, as stated by AT , and at BoG, he is far above SS trunks

1) While I agree Picoolo would be stronger then base gohan , it wouldn't be more then two times at the most. Ssj multiplier is 50 so ssj gohan is much stronger then picoolo. Also remember how Impressed was Picoolo with ultimate gohan or even ss2 kid gohan ?. Surely he would have even bigger expections for current gohan, or gohan in return of freeza arc. The not enraged ssj gohan is below his ssj2 kid gohan form at least, He would be comparable to his teen version before he trained with z sword.
I see still Mr buu above Enraged ssj gohan as goku still wanted to take buu over gohan even after seeing he trained.

2) ok, bu Surely Ssj gohan is still supperior to Picoolo who can be at the best 2-3 times as strong as base gohan and I am generous here. SSJ gohan would still have around 25 times more powerfull then picoolo... Mr. Boo is still above picoolo but the gap would be at the most 10 times stronger.

3) Good point, but read above to see while Picoolo isn;t that big deal. This also fit in dragon ball super theme which keeps up with small gain for sayians(goku/vegeta) in base only get significant while they are transforming. Honestly taking in consideration how base goku and vegeta were used by whis to compare them with beerus I am not even sure if they are as strong as Mr buu as goku called him crazy strong. NOw the question is wether was goku talking about Enraged or clam Mr. buu.

4) that correct, however base goku and even ff freeza could be at least buu arc ssj2 tier and at the most fat buu level. I agree with bog ssj3 ~ultimate gohan > gotenks > Mr buu but we have to consider goku would take in consideration of buu's rage when calling him crazy strong. Do I need to remind that AKira mentioned that buu's power is bottomless and even probably buu is not yet capable of bringing it out.

Sorry but no, Base goku was holding back and not even troubled or attempting to went serious against frost until he used final form. I agree that Base goku is below Final form frost, but frost is also much inferior to ssj goku/vegeta which means frost could be from 2-5 times as strong as base goku. Ssj transformation was only bait for frost to do the same.

tagoma, ginyu , 1st FF , 2nd FF, 3rd FF.

ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden freeza
------ssj vegetto-------------
ssj goku/vegeta
------base vegetto--------------
enraged ssj2 vegeta - base vegetto
rage boost ssj cabba/Magenta - super buu tier
Final form Frost/ssj cabba - bog ssj3 power
kid buu(uub)
u6 base goku/vegeta/4th form freeza ~ Mr buu
Restricted ff Frost,base cabba/3rd FF - ssj2 goku/vegeta(buu arc)
Assault form Frost/2nd FF - Super Perfect Cell
1st FF/ u6 base gohan/ u6 Picoolo - cell arc mssj gohan
ginyu - semi Perfect Cell
tagoma
rof Picoolo - Android 16
rof base gohan - imperfect Cell
First form Frost - Imperfect Cell
Botamo - Android 18

Here . Also keep in mind Picoolo was quite ashamed and angry about his performance I know it is hard to swallow but I see Picoolo even getting a bit weaker but base gohan even more

[LowRyder2005]

Using ssbgoku's post as a handhold, am I the only one who thinks Magetta is a very interesting case?

You'd have enough room to put him at Super Buu tier, on paper, since Vegeta acts like his blows could hurt him while in Super Saiyan form. I, however, prefer to think of him as something like the robots in the second Cooler movie, though, super-resistant but no match for a serious Super Saiyan Vegeta.

All in all, though, I'm still leaning towards the idea Goku and Vegeta could have defeated most of their opponents in the Base Form from ROF's arc, and they basically turned Super Saiyan and went really easy on everyone to test their new power in that form in battle and save strenght (the second part is directly stated by Goku while facing Assault Frost, at least) in case someone really strong appeared. Minus Magetta, obviously, we clearly see Vegeta is trying hard to crush his nearly insurmountable defense.

Goku: 2 -> 100 -> 10,000 (Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue)

Either that or the idea they didn't use God ki at all. Like it's been already said:

Goku: 1 -> 50 (Base -> Super Saiyan = non God ki)
_____ 200 -> 10,000 (God-amped Base -> Super Saiyan Blue = God ki)

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Just wondering: is there a reason why Base Goku and Vegeta need to be comparable to Mr. Boo? These guys have not only trained with Whis, but also in the rosat. We know Goku had gotten much stronger absorbing the God Power while Vegeta reached a whole different level training with Whis alone. Being comparable to Mr. Boo makes it seem like they haven't gained much of anything.

[dbzfan7]

At the moment I have Boo above Gohan and Piccolo. I'll wait til later to see if my mind changes. I also find the 1000 ton thing funny after seeing in the anime those crazy feats. Though the manga still has the punching planets into pieces feat by Beerus and Champa at whatever percentage they were at.

[ZombieVito]

Just wondering: is there a reason why Base Goku and Vegeta need to be comparable to Mr. Boo? These guys have not only trained with Whis, but also in the rosat. We know Goku had gotten much stronger absorbing the God Power while Vegeta reached a whole different level training with Whis alone. Being comparable to Mr. Boo makes it seem like they haven't gained much of anything.

Because until now EoZ is still canon.

[ssbgoku]

Just wondering: is there a reason why Base Goku and Vegeta need to be comparable to Mr. Boo? These guys have not only trained with Whis, but also in the rosat. We know Goku had gotten much stronger absorbing the God Power while Vegeta reached a whole different level training with Whis alone. Being comparable to Mr. Boo makes it seem like they haven't gained much of anything.

Because until now EoZ is still canon.

Yeah exactly because of this and also the fact that dragon ball super keep going on with showing that base state sayians are hardly even improving and only under whis training they got so much more powerfull. Also it fits in whis comment about goku and vegeta compared to beerus with castle to tree comparision. The base with god ki is nothing more then temporary transcending stage towards ssb or at least what impression I got from Akira. Too best honest I am not even sure if base goku or vegeta are even as strong as Mr buu, however I am sure they are at least super perfect cell tier.

Also it was huge gain since beerus stated base goku being weaker then freeza 100% in final form. Jumping from namek saga final form freeza to at least super perfect cell in 6 months(they trained with whis that long, right ?) and after trarining for 3 years in rosat reaching at the most fat buu tier is surely great accomplishment.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Just wondering: is there a reason why Base Goku and Vegeta need to be comparable to Mr. Boo? These guys have not only trained with Whis, but also in the rosat. We know Goku had gotten much stronger absorbing the God Power while Vegeta reached a whole different level training with Whis alone. Being comparable to Mr. Boo makes it seem like they haven't gained much of anything.

Because until now EoZ is still canon.

Is this referring to the idea of Goku believing Oob would be a good challenge? Pan was 4 during the End of Z and we know Super isn't six yrs after Z. That doesn't mean the events of Super need to be retroactively applied to the ending. The battle is actually similar to the Vegeta/Cabba march, where he's trying to provoke him to unleash his power. We know for a fact Goku is holding-back, so being much stronger than Oob is not an issue.

What we know for a fact is Base Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they can gauge Gods. That's something Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't do at all, so he should be weaker by default. Beers also said Goku and Vegeta had gotten much stronger and wanted to fight them before he tells Whis to seal them in that room. Being weaker than Mr. Boo or even comparable at this point seems off. He's established as inferior.

[ssbgoku]

Just wondering: is there a reason why Base Goku and Vegeta need to be comparable to Mr. Boo? These guys have not only trained with Whis, but also in the rosat. We know Goku had gotten much stronger absorbing the God Power while Vegeta reached a whole different level training with Whis alone. Being comparable to Mr. Boo makes it seem like they haven't gained much of anything.

Because until now EoZ is still canon.

Is this referring to the idea of Goku believing Oob would be a good challenge? Pan was 4 during the End of Z and we know Super isn't six yrs after Z. That doesn't mean the events of Super need to be retroactively applied to the ending. The battle is actually similar to the Vegeta/Cabba march, where he's trying to provoke him to unleash his power. We know for a fact Goku is holding-back, so being much stronger than is not an issue.

What we know for a fact is Base Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they can gauge Gods. That's something Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't do at all, so he should be weaker by default. Beers also said Goku and Vegeta had gotten much stronger and wanted to fight them before he tells Whis to seal them in that room. Being weaker than Mr. Boo or even comparable at this point seems off. He's established as inferior.

I can see and understand your point, but it is only issue as long you believes god ki base is real deal. However I want to prove that sayain beyond god state which is fandom made name anyway was only temporary state for goku and vegeta once they suprassed ssg power.

Like: Base goku/vegeta-> Saiyan beyond god goku/vegeta
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=====Base goku/vegeta->==ssb goku/vegeta

The moment they turned ssb the moment their base god ki stopped existing as we knew it. Beerus's comment about goku and vegeta gotten much stronger was only refferring to their Saiyan beyond god state and later ssb. The whis comment of comparing goku and vegeta with beerus was only reffergin to base Saiyan states... This way it makes sense even if base goku and vegeta are just super perfect cell level.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

See, that's the part I don't understand. God Chi is special in that it can't be sensed, but according to Whis, it's predicated on keeping your Chi from leaking around you. Vegeta trained with Whis for six months and became powerful enough to sense all of the Gods, as well as equal or slightly surpass Goku. We know for a fact Vegeta reached that level without any ritual, so all of that power he accumulated training with Whis is his own. Goku appeared to gain the ability to gauge Gods after absorbing the power, but I don't believe something like that would just disappear. Their ability to change into Super Saiyan Blue whenever they want tells us their Godly Chi is intact.

It just seems really strange that power like this would just vanish without being alluded to in any way. Think about it: Vegeta tells Goku they're close to reaching their limits before going into the rosat. Wouldn't this imply that they're stronger than they've ever been in general? For Vegeta to say that, he'd have to believe they were powerful to the point where it seemed like they didn't have much more room to improve. After Base Goku and Vegeta train in the room for awhile, Vegeta says he can feel the growth in power and actually looks forward to fighting the U6 warriors even more.

It just doesn't make sense for them to not be expanding on the power they have. We're never given any reason to believe they're regressing.