The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

PD...

Vegeta senses two tremendous powers. Then goes on to say that they are surpassing the Super Saiyan left and right.

Cell would be included in that statement, thus Cell > SSJ Vegeta.

Vegeta only said this:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”
Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo

Then later only mentions that Piccolo has surpassed his Super Saiyan form

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P11.7
Subject: Piccolo
Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…I'm-impossible…He’s just a Namekian..”

And, I assume, this is the line you're referring to:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all really dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

I understand how you could interpret that as Vegeta referring to Cell, but I don't. Vegeta doesn't mention anything about Cell surpassing his Super Saiyan form, only Piccolo, and he could just be referring to Piccolo and the Androids when he says the aforementioned line. There's really not that much given on Cell's strength before he absorbs enough Earthlings to defeat Piccolo and the Androids, apart from just the generic arbitrary terms "stupendous", "gigantic" and "absurdly large" that just suggests that they're really strong, not necessarily stronger.

By the way, I'm not denying that #18 was stronger than Vegeta. Just not by a large amount, as Vegeta was still able to fight her evenly before his stamina began to fall.

"Tanking a punch" doesn't mean much to me if the entire battle was equal and the only reason stated why Vegeta would lose is that his opponent has infinite energy. After all, Piccolo said that bit by bit, #18 was pushing back, as Vegeta's stamina fell the more he moved. By this point, they had already been fighting for quite some time, so Vegeta would've already been wearing out while #18 remained at full power.

I mean, after Piccolo took some blows from #17, Piccolo smirked and just said that his speed was pretty good, but his punch lacked weight.

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7
Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.”
No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…”

Now, you could say that that's a different scenario, but it doesn't suggest that there's a huge gap between Piccolo and #17 just from one little line in which Piccolo scolded #17's strength. They were still even, and #17 may've won because of his infinite energy.

[p123]

Vegeta referring to people weaker than him as someone with an absurdly large battle power?

Vegeta clearly groups Piccolo and Cell together.


Then says, They are all surpassing the SSJ.

If Cell is not included in that, I don't know what to tell you man...

[CatouttaHell]

Don't forget Goku saying he can't beat the Artificial Humans OR Cell.

[p123]

Good point...

Don't forget 18 flat out calling Vegeta pathetic, and helpless. She wouldn't say that about someone on par with her.

The real power equals, one losing stamina , the other not, fight, is Piccolo vs 17.


17 wouldn't be in his right mind if he called Piccolo pathetic, and helpless. Those are some strong azz words!

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah, she declares that Goku (by association) and Vegeta are both nothing special. Nobody has ever declared that someone on par with them is nothing special.

#18 vs. Vegeta seemed like a less one-sided version of Perfect Cell vs. Vegeta to me. Vegeta was badly outclassed the whole time and was so blinded that he had no clue.

Don't forget how easily SSjin Trunks was taken out by a more serious #17 and #18. The same SSjin Trunks who SSjin Vegeta wasn't able to fly fast enough to lose.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yes, you can describe someone weaker than you as having an "absurdly large" power. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're stronger than you, just that they have an "absurdly large" power. Vegeta only ever specifically says that Piccolo's surpassed him anyway.

Goku can't beat Cell because he's been gradually growing in power after absorbing people. This is, like, three days after Piccolo's fight with Cell. Of course he's going to be considerably stronger than before by then.

Both #17 and #18 are actually impressed by Vegeta's strength. #18 doesn't call Vegeta pathetic or helpless, she just says that he's "nothing special". That's because she has infinite energy while Vegeta's stamina is falling. That's the whole reason Vegeta was going to lose. Not because #18 was toying around with him. It's supported by the fact that right after Piccolo makes his statement, #18 trips Vegeta up, elbows him in the face (and Trunks becomes visibly worried, saying, "No..."), and then #18 breaks Vegeta's arm.

I wouldn't put it out of #17 to call Piccolo pathetic and helpless, considering he's an arrogant brat who thinks he's "the strongest in history" and believes that the reason Cell managed to throw him to the ground and almost attack him with his tail was because he caught him off-guard.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this anymore. You have your interpretation and I have mine.

[p123]

18 states that Vegeta is pathetic and helpless when Vegeta goes to fight Cell. Do you think she's lying?

[Piccolo Daimao]

18 states that Vegeta is pathetic and helpless when Vegeta goes to fight Cell. Do you think she's lying?

Btw, she only says he was helpless against her.

Chapter: 376 (DBZ 182), P13.6
No.18: “He’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”

But Vegeta was only helpless because, once his stamina started falling, she was pushing him back. To the point that he'd exhausted him and she'd gone on to break both his arms.

I said that I wasn't going to argue about this anymore, and that we have different interpretations now. I think we should end this debate here before we go round in circles.

[p123]

Don't run away just yet while the getting is good!

So since Piccolo Weighted rivals 18, are you saying that Piccolo Weighted = SSJ Vegeta as well? A power stated to have surpassed Super Saiyan?

Seems to me, you are running in circles now my friend. I think I got you here man... Agreed?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Don't run away just yet while the getting is good!

So since Piccolo Weighted rivals 18, are you saying that Piccolo Weighted = SSJ Vegeta as well? A power stated to have surpassed Super Saiyan?

Seems to me, you are running in circles now my friend.

I'm not running away, I just don't want to continue to participate in a pointless argument that's going nowhere. Piccolo rivals #17 and #18, I don't care about weighted or not.

End of story.

[Michsi]

About the whole 18 vs. Vegeta battle

I really can't see how you could interpret this fight as Vegeta being equal to 18.
Yes , Piccolo comments on Vegeta losing power and her having infinite energy, but he was losing power against someone, who was at most half serious about that fight. All he managed to do was throw her around a bit and ruin her clothes. From the very beginning, before any loss of energy came into play, he did 0 damage to her.

You don't even need to factor Cell into this. Comparing Piccolo's performance against 17 to Vegeta's performance against 18 is enough. As you said, it's all about taking it at face value.

[Kaboom]

Vegeta was able to put up a decent fight against 18, but was ultimately her clear inferior in both stamina AND power.

18's power is somewhat less than 17's.

Piccolo's powerful enough to not only rival 17, but is potentially even stronger given he was regarded capable of defeating him.

[p123]

I agree Mich. Seems like PD doesn't want to hear it though. Oh well.

[Rocketman]

17 says that 18 couldn't take all the Z fighters at once. Since all of the others get smashed in one or two hits, Vegeta has to be the deciding factor there.

[Michsi]

17 says that 18 couldn't take all the Z fighters at once.

Where?

Since all of the others get smashed in one or two hits, Vegeta has to be the deciding factor there.

I'm fairly certain that if she had been serious from the very beginning, he would have been defeated just as easily.
Trunks sword swing does as much damage to her as Vegeta's blast earlier. An by "to her", I mean "her clothes".
And that still doesn't say anything about 18 and Vegeta being equals.

[Rocketman]

17 says that 18 couldn't take all the Z fighters at once.

Where?

When the crew shows up. 17 says 18 can't handle them all, which is why he tells them he'll intervene if they do.

[p123]

I believe 17 was under the impression that 18 ~ Vegeta , and only she knew she was holding back. As we can see , Trunks, who isn't all that far off from Vegeta, is one shot material for 17...

[Piccolo Daimao]

17 says that 18 couldn't take all the Z fighters at once.

Where?

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

[p123]

17 can't sense ki, and doesn't know 18 is toying with Vegeta I would guess...

[Michsi]

17 says that 18 couldn't take all the Z fighters at once.

Where?

When the crew shows up. 17 says 18 can't handle them all, which is why he tells them he'll intervene if they do.

Found it. In my opinion, it was about fairness. He basically says the same thing when Piccolo challenges him. That one on one fights should stay one on one. And 18 could handle Trunks and Vegeta at once.

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

My (german) version:

17: Oh look at that. He gets back-up. In that case, C18 shoul also receive help. I'm going! Or do you want to ndo it, 16?

The wording here implies that he really was just thinking about fairness.