FUNimation DBZ TV Blu-ray Official On-Going Thread

[Pokewhiz7]

It would probably be feedback@funimation.com since they list that as "General Feedback or Suggestions", and we're suggesting the inclusion of alternate angles.

[Jabberwock xeno]

Sorry for sounding noobish, but what do you mean by alternate angles?

Like screen flipping?

[ShadowDude112]

Sorry for sounding noobish, but what do you mean by alternate angles?

Like screen flipping?

No. We mean that we can either get English title cards/credits or Japanese title cards/credits.

[Jabberwock xeno]

Sorry for sounding noobish, but what do you mean by alternate angles?

Like screen flipping?

No. We mean that we can either get English title cards/credits or Japanese title cards/credits.

Oh.

What the thought process behind the term "angles" then?

Wouldn't it be easier to say "alt credits"?

Also, @Ashura, what would you say "moderate" grain removal would be?

I understand why you guys don't like the amount of tampering with the season sets, but I fail to see how the adjustments I made reduce the image quality.

[ShadowDude112]

Sorry for sounding noobish, but what do you mean by alternate angles?

Like screen flipping?

No. We mean that we can either get English title cards/credits or Japanese title cards/credits.

Oh.

What the thought process behind the term "angles" then?

Wouldn't it be easier to say "alt credits"?

The only time I've seen Alternate Angles be used is for DBZ. I'm guess it's just to use different footage for a movie or something but for DBZ, they use it because you don't want to see the title card for episode 31 say "Saiyan Sized Secret" but have the narrator say a completely different title.

[Kendamu]

Updated the initial post (and the home page of the website) with a press release from Image Systems, who have sold licenses of their restoration products to FUNimation for the new release.

Thanks for the update! I especially like that part about grain removal. While some of the super heavy stuff will be wiped, there really is an amount of depth grain gives an image that isn't there anymore if you take it away completely. I'm glad to hear that they're being careful and considerate when it comes to grain rather than simply wiping it all away and saying, "See? Better!!! Buy!!!!!!"

It'll be interesting once these hit the market to see the wider fanbase's reaction to this compared to the previous remaster.

[Jabberwock xeno]

Updated the initial post (and the home page of the website) with a press release from Image Systems, who have sold licenses of their restoration products to FUNimation for the new release.

Thanks for the update! I especially like that part about grain removal. While some of the super heavy stuff will be wiped, there really is an amount of depth grain gives an image that isn't there anymore if you take it away completely. I'm glad to hear that they're being careful and considerate when it comes to grain rather than simply wiping it all away and saying, "See? Better!!! Buy!!!!!!"

It'll be interesting once these hit the market to see the wider fanbase's reaction to this compared to the previous remaster.

Can you try to point that out to me?

I'm trying to understand how much grain is right to remove and whats not, can you point out areas on my touch up that would look better with grain?

[thedarkuniter]

I honestly don't have zero problems with grain. Grain only naturally comes depending on the film stock. Of course, grain naturally can be seen on 16mm and 35mm however for like 70mm, its there but not really visible. Since Dragon Ball Z is shot on 16mm, it'll inherently have grain and might look like Evil Dead. For Kai, they just scan the film, I believe, and did color adjustments to it and redraw or trace some scenes. I honestly like both the Dragon Box and Kai's look equally over the orange bricks look.

[ect5150]

Do you guys think we can get FUNI to release a screen shot of the final product (like they did before the Orange bricks were coming out?). Remember, they released a few shots to show the issues with the cropping. I wonder if some of us could hound them for one or two 1080P screen shots for us.

[Jabberwock xeno]

Do you guys think we can get FUNI to release a screen shot of the final product (like they did before the Orange bricks were coming out?). Remember, they released a few shots to show the issues with the cropping. I wonder if some of us could hound them for one or two 1080P screen shots for us.

Perhaps, I think it's a bit early for that though.

Also, since you didn't link to one before, I assume you don't have a video comparsion?

[Zestanor]

What the thought process behind the term "angles" then?

For example in a DVD for a concert, you might want to see many camera angles to see different musicians and singers. Of course, there are other situations where the term 'angle' would be appropriate.
I'm a good man.

[Ashura]

The only time I've seen Alternate Angles be used is for DBZ. I'm guess it's just to use different footage for a movie or something but for DBZ, they use it because you don't want to see the title card for episode 31 say "Saiyan Sized Secret" but have the narrator say a completely different title.

It used to be on pretty much every one of Funimation's releases until enough fans complained about it. On DVD, the complaint was valid because the quality of the video would suffer since you had to split the bitrate in half. On Bluray, I've read that this is not the case.

I'm trying to understand how much grain is right to remove and whats not, can you point out areas on my touch up that would look better with grain?

The issue is that most grain removal techniques compare the frames around it to figure out what is grain and what is actual movement. It then tries to isolate what the edges are and then clean up the blocks of colors. Grain is inherently moving, so doing it to a single frame is misleading and not how it would be approached for video.

To me, an acceptable level of grain removal is when there's enough grain left after removal that you don't destroy the actual linework and detail, but also done in a way that there's not too much grain there that it obscures the picture so it's hard to see what's going on. (Most of the time, prints with high grain are highly multigenerational... 3rd or 4th prints on upward.)

Since you were working from a still image, what follows is just an approximation of a 'best result' from most grain removal techniques that I created very quickly using photoshop:



With the green color cast correction:



And then if you want to push it more toward the orange brick colors, you do a hue/saturation adjustment on the cyan channel and push it more toward blue:



Personally, I enjoy grainy animation more than not. Like if you look at the new Blood Rubies DVD, it's nothing but grain... and it looks great to me even with all the nicks and scratches. Even still, if they clean up some of it so it's not pervasive but leave enough grain that it doesn't look smeared together and keeps the overall line quality I'm okay with it too.

[Gaffer Tape]

In terms of how much grain removal is enough, the answer is really in trying to determine how much grain was originally in the picture to begin with. In other words, what kind of film stock was used, and what kind of grain density would that result in from the source? Grain removal is really only effective when you're working with a multi-generational source. Every time you make a copy, from original negative to interpositive to internegative and then exhibition prints and so on, you're adding a layer of grain. And especially in much older films, the only available copy might be several generations away from the IP. So grain removal is helpful in clearing up a muddied image. But in good cases, in cases where you actually have access to the original or early generation prints, then grain removal really isn't necessary and is really just doing more harm than good.

[Ashura]

If you want to get technical like that, people would probably argue which is the most original version of the picture. If you go back, the original cel didn't have any grain for instance. This specific notion is what I figure is the main thought process within a lot of these companies, which is why they seem to strive for complete grain removal even if they get the worst results.

Personally, I'm with Gaffer that aiming for something close to the original film print in its most pristine form is probably the best idea. I say most pristine, because age and wear and just how good companies kept these masters could mean that a second or third level print could've been kept in much better shape than the first.

[Jabberwock xeno]

The issue is that most grain removal techniques compare the frames around it to figure out what is grain and what is actual movement. It then tries to isolate what the edges are and then clean up the blocks of colors. Grain is inherently moving, so doing it to a single frame is misleading and not how it would be approached for video.

Hence why I said that Kai looked better in motion, right? That's why I want to see a video comparsion of the dboxes.

To me, an acceptable level of grain removal is when there's enough grain left after removal that you don't destroy the actual linework and detail, but also done in a way that there's not too much grain there that it obscures the picture so it's hard to see what's going on.

Agreed. My question though was what parts in the image I edited had destroyed line work and detail.
Though now that i'm looking at it, it seems me doing the cartoon effect did more harm than good. Still, that has little to do with grain so much as fixing broken lines.

Since you were working from a still image, what follows is just an approximation of a 'best result' from most grain removal techniques that I created very quickly using photoshop:



With the green color cast correction:



And then if you want to push it more toward the orange brick colors, you do a hue/saturation adjustment on the cyan channel and push it more toward blue:



Personally, I enjoy grainy animation more than not. Like if you look at the new Blood Rubies DVD, it's nothing but grain... and it looks great to me even with all the nicks and scratches. Even still, if they clean up some of it so it's not pervasive but leave enough grain that it doesn't look smeared together and keeps the overall line quality I'm okay with it too.

[/quote]

Okay. I like the way you did it. Enough of the grain removed that I like it.

Though I think I would like mine the best had I not used the cartoon filter...

So, did mine look smeared together too much for you?

[ect5150]

Do you guys think we can get FUNI to release a screen shot of the final product (like they did before the Orange bricks were coming out?). Remember, they released a few shots to show the issues with the cropping. I wonder if some of us could hound them for one or two 1080P screen shots for us.

Perhaps, I think it's a bit early for that though.

Also, since you didn't link to one before, I assume you don't have a video comparsion?

Of the DragonBox running against the Orange Sets? I used to, but if I can't find it I could whip up another one (although it might take until Friday before I could get it posted somewhere). Now that you mention it, I might make one running 4 comparisons, DBox/Orange Sets/Kai/DBox reduced grain or something like that and upload it in 1080P (make it play on a PS3 as well). I might start that tonight!

[Ashura]

Hence why I said that Kai looked better in motion, right? That's why I want to see a video comparsion of the dboxes. Agreed. My question though was what parts in the image I edited had destroyed line work and detail. Though now that i'm looking at it, it seems me doing the cartoon effect did more harm than good. Still, that has little to do with grain so much as fixing broken lines. So, did mine look smeared together too much for you?

With yours, you can see all the blurred and smeared grain in the sky. The lines in the shadows are no longer as smooth, especially in the shadow of Piccolo's cape. It looked sort of like there was Vaseline smeared everywhere.

Kai looks very soft, no matter if it's in motion or not. This is the tradeoff of them getting rid of so much grain. It looks fine, but in my position I definitely would've left the grain if it meant sharper details. They probably wanted it to look as digital as possible though, so I can understand this approach being the one they chose since it was the least destructive without leaving much in the way of traces of grain.

Take a look at this: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/screensho ... position=9 See how soft it is?

The thing that gets me about Kai is they didn't bother to do much in the way of jitter cleanup, so despite all the filters they pasted it through there's a bunch of places early on where the picture wobbles.

[Pokewhiz7]

I don't like the look of Kai; it looks too soft.

[ArchedThunder]

I really like how it looks so far, I just hope they do a new dub for this rerererererelease.

[TheGreatness25]

This is going to sound ignorant on my part because I've repeated over and over again how FUNimation wouldn't redub DBZ, but if they're going to go ahead and make a "new" release for it, at least redub the damn thing. I guarantee they'll sell a lot more than they will like this. Sure, they'd spend a lot more money redubbing than just releasing it like this, but they'd make more. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees no point in getting this and spending even more money on it. But if it was redubbed, I'd get it in a heartbeat.

And FUNimation needs to wake the hell up and understand that they need to get Dragon Ball out there in the form of a Dragon Box or Blu-ray (we already kind of have DBZ on Blu-ray with Kai) pronto.