Buu Saga Info

[Mjb1985]

If Buff Buu can come out of nowhere , Good Buu could restore his power. Magic suckers. Lol. Also , Vegeta brings up that Good Buu might expel another bad Buu situation again , which is why he wants to get rid of him. That's all the manga evidence I need to roll with that! Plus Good vs Kid looks consistent with a power Fat had more so than anything! Bam!

Ssj3 Gotenks vs Super Buu is tough indeed. Having them as equals seems best imo. Super Buu probably wants Gotenks as confident as possible to get him into another battle don't you think? If they were equals or Buu had the upper hand , Gotenks would be more inclined to allow Gohan to finish the job. I've never thought of it this way until now so yea...

[BejitaSama]

If Buff Buu can come out of nowhere , Good Buu could restore his power. Magic suckers. Lol. Also , Vegeta brings up that Good Buu might expel another bad Buu situation again , which is why he wants to get rid of him. That's all the manga evidence I need to roll with that! Plus Good vs Kid looks consistent with a power Fat had more so than anything! Bam!

I don't think so that Buff Buu comes out nowhere. We know that Pure Evil Buu is pure evil, so he can't be affected by Kaioshins. It means that it's Good Buu who have Kaioshins inside him. And so when Super Buu lost Good Buu (so the influence of the Kais), he passed through his Buff Buu form quickly (lost Dai Kaioshin first because it's the last he absorbed), and lost few seconds after the South Kaioshin influence --> Kid Buu.
But you make good point with what Bejita said !

Super Buu probably wants Gotenks as confident as possible to get him into another battle don't you think? If they were equals or Buu had the upper hand , Gotenks would be more inclined to allow Gohan to finish the job. I've never thought of it this way until now so yea...

Totally agree with that !

[Mjb1985]

Interesting. I like Good = Fat vs Kid considering their fight. I have to think that through a bit more though.

And honestly , Super Buu says he's the strongest. He's probably right. This version of Buu is very accurate. It's not until he ingests those ridiculous boys with their high hopes does he start getting overconfident. But equals is fine too. Right now I probably give Super the edge though.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Ssj3 Gotenks vs Super Buu is tough indeed. Having them as equals seems best imo. Super Buu probably wants Gotenks as confident as possible to get him into another battle don't you think? If they were equals or Buu had the upper hand , Gotenks would be more inclined to allow Gohan to finish the job. I've never thought of it this way until now so yea...

Isn't this basically the same things I said?

[Mjb1985]

Probably. I've always dismissed it as malarkey due to their fight. Sometimes people give you good advice in life and you understand it but it never fully hits you until one day bam, you decide this rational thing is superior and go with it. One of those situations more or less.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Ah, I know what you mean. When ever I type posts I like thinking of counters, and then I type them up as well. I love reading other people's opinions of different scenarios, some times I read things and would have never thought of it the way they did.

[Mjb1985]

So how do you feel about Super > Gotenks? I doubt it would be by a large measure , I'm assuming the same gap Gotenks had on Buu before could do just fine here. I'm trying to think about a fight comparable to Gotenks vs Buu , perhaps the Cell vs Goku / Zarbon vs Vegeta / Kkx2 Goku vs FP Vegeta range?

Basically helpless but right there if the opponent makes a mistake ? Or is Buu even further off during the fight?

[BejitaSama]

According to me, there souldn't be a big gap between Gotenks and Super Buu. Cell vs Goku seems to be too high, and by the fact that in DB just a 1.33x stronger than your opponent makes you easily win, i would say that Super Buu is around 1.1~1.2x stronger. Gohan would be 1.4~1.5 x stronger than Super Buu.

[TheMightyOzaru]

because Kid Buu has all of the unrestrained evil Buu power just like Evil did.

Nop, because Pure Evil Buu has the most part of Fat Buu's power, whereas Kid Buu is stronger than Fat. And it's logical, because Pure Evil Buu lost a part of his "Buu power" when he splitted.

Super Buu negated the effects that Good Buu would have had on him. South Kaioshin and the Potara make it clear that Buu can negate anything Kaioshin related if he holds the superior will. That's how I see it anyway.

[BejitaSama]

There's also the possibility that the Potaras (which are Kaioshin's property) can't be used inside Buu, following the theory that Kaioshins and him are incompatible.
By the way, how do you see the "special treatment" of Good Buu's cocoon ?

[Kamiccolo9]

BejitaSama, I had question for you earlier that kinda got lost under all of the teleporting discussion. Would you mind responding to it now?

BejitaSama, If you don't mind me asking, what reason could Goku possibly have to lie about Super Buu being able to kill him? He was begging Vegeta to fuse with him in Buu's body, and we know that Goku is obsessed with fair, one-on-one fights (he let Piccolo punch him to make up for Kami blocking his attack, he let Vegeta escape so that he could fight him again, he let Freeza reach his full power, he healed Cell before he fought Gohan so it would be a fair fight, they fight one-on-one in Babidi's space ship; even when it looks like Gohan might lose,Goku and Vegeta do not interfere, Goku doesn't stop the fight between Spopovitch and Videl, he and Vegeta compete to see which of them will fight Pure Buu one-on-one, they do the same thing in the 2008 Special with Aka, he is disappointed with Super Saiyan God because he required help from others to achieve it), so fusion has to be a last resort. It goes against Goku's established character to ask for help from another fighter when he doesn't need it. Yet against Pure Buu, he's totally confident that he can beat him on his own. Even after Buu starts fighting and proves that he's stronger than they fought, Goku is still sure he can win.
So we see that:
Goku is willing to put aside his Saiyan pride and beg for help to defeat Super Buu, who he states would kill him otherwise.
Goku is fully confident in his ability to defeat Pure Buu.
I have tried to stick purely to what is said in the manga and the two recent animations in order to cut down on speculation.

[BejitaSama]

Kami, I had already answered (lot) few pages ago !

But before responding, I have to say that contrary to what you think, my aim is not to make Goku the strongest. I really don't care if it's Gotenks, Goku or Gohan. But to compare them, I think the best way is to understand Buu's transformations (which is, I think, the most interesting in this Saga). If we have it, we can compare them. Because statments by characters is sucking, in my opinion, in this Buu Saga.

So now, I answer to you :
I don't really think that Goku is lying. At this point of the story, Goku is stated to be not sure to beat Fat Buu. That's what he claimed to Piccolo. So at this level, he can't be Super Buu, who is stronger than Fat Buu. So maybe in author's head, Goku was still =< Fat Buu. But I think that later, when Kid Buu was created, Toriyama had to make Goku stronger in order to face him. So this is at this moment that Toriyama revealed the real level of Goku SSJ3. The same as Kid Buu, which is for me clearly presented as the strongest Buu without absorption. This is my "out-off universe explanation"

If i have to go with the "Goku lied", I would say that it's just what he did all along the saga : he lied when he said that he can't be beat Fat Buu because he's equal to Bejita (which is false, because he has SSJ3, but maybe Toriyama didn't think about it at this time), he lied to Piccolo when the Namek asked him if he could beat Buu (and he responded the same thing that he says later when he faces Kid Buu : "I want to boys protect the earth", but with two different statment : "I don't think I could beat Fat Buu" and "I could beat Fat Buu"). He said that Gotenks was able to defeat Fat Buu, but the only fight we had was a gag with a base Gotenks. The fusion needed SSJ3 (!) to be around Super Buu's power , who (according to me) can't be, even in my dreams, ten times stronger than Fat Buu.

Hope you will accept my way to see things.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kami, I had already answered (lot) few pages ago !

But before responding, I have to say that contrary to what you think, my aim is not to make Goku the strongest. I really don't care if it's Gotenks, Goku or Gohan. But to compare them, I think the best way is to understand Buu's transformations (which is, I think, the most interesting in this Saga). If we have it, we can compare them. Because statments by characters is sucking, in my opinion, in this Buu Saga.

So now, I answer to you :
I don't really think that Goku is lying. At this point of the story, Goku is stated to be not sure to beat Fat Buu. That's what he claimed to Piccolo. So at this level, he can't be Super Buu, who is stronger than Fat Buu. So maybe in author's head, Goku was still =< Fat Buu. But I think that later, when Kid Buu was created, Toriyama had to make Goku stronger in order to face him. So this is at this moment that Toriyama revealed the real level of Goku SSJ3. The same as Kid Buu, which is for me clearly presented as the strongest Buu without absorption. This is my "out-off universe explanation"

If i have to go with the "Goku lied", I would say that it's just what he did all along the saga : he lied when he said that he can't be beat Fat Buu because he's equal to Bejita (which is false, because he has SSJ3, but maybe Toriyama didn't think about it at this time), he lied to Piccolo when the Namek asked him if he could beat Buu (and he responded the same thing that he says later when he faces Kid Buu : "I want to boys protect the earth", but with two different statment : "I don't think I could beat Fat Buu" and "I could beat Fat Buu"). He said that Gotenks was able to defeat Fat Buu, but the only fight we had was a gag with a base Gotenks. The fusion needed SSJ3 (!) to be around Super Buu's power , who (according to me) can't be, even in my dreams, ten times stronger than Fat Buu.

Hope you will accept my way to see things.

My bad, must have missed it. A lot's happened since then
The issue isn't making Goku the strongest, but in making Pure Buu stronger than Super Buu, you have to at least make him stronger than Gotenks.
As for his "lies" the first two you listed were the same lie. He did want the boys to defeat Buu, that's why he spared Fat Buu in the first place. But by the time they fought Pure Buu, when Goku said that, both Gotenks and Gohan were still dead.
All we know about Super Buu's-SSJ3 Gotenks-SSJ3 Goku's power is that Buu and Gotenks fought evenly, and Goku said that Buu would kill him.
So, Goku only lied once, and that was when he had other options. There was no reason for him to lie when he told Vegeta that they couldn't beat Super Buu. The boys were dead, and there was no one else to fight.

[BejitaSama]

No Kami, this is not the same lie ! The first was made before we know SSJ3, before we know fusion.
When Goku fought Majin Bejita, why did he say that they were equal ? To "protect" Bejita's pride. ok.
But then ? There is no reason for him to say to Piccolo, Dende, and Kuririn that he's as strong as Bejita. Bejita is dead The only reason is that Toriyama didn't thought about SSJ3 at this moment.

And if you don't like this, maybe you can argue with my "out-off universe".

Maybe you're right, but by making Goku < Super Buu and Gotenks, there isn't any logic explanation with Buu's forms.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There's also the possibility that the Potaras (which are Kaioshin's property) can't be used inside Buu, following the theory that Kaioshins and him are incompatible.
By the way, how do you see the "special treatment" of Good Buu's cocoon ?

The whole Buu cocoon thing was a special case like Super Buu said. No one really knows how it works. The potara earrings were negated like the influence Good Buu would have had on him if his evil energy wasn't superior. Or like how South Kaioshin increased Buu's power despite his energy being supposedly incompatible. He simply reversed or negated the negative effects. Also yes South Kaioshin did increase his power, it's stated in an guide book somewhere. I really wish I could find it, I remember it being in the all purpose translation thread but I'm not sure where.
EDIT: yes there is a page saying that by removing Buu's absorptions he became weaker so it doesn't specifically say South Kaioshin strengthened Buu but since it's stated that he was weakened after removing his absorptions and was strengthened in his South Kaioshin absorbed state, this means South Kaioshin strengthened Pure Buu. This is on page 27 on the all purpose translation thread. If you are interested.

[Kamiccolo9]

No Kami, this is not the same lie ! The first was made before we know SSJ3, before we know fusion.
When Goku fought Majin Bejita, why did he say that they were equal ? To "protect" Bejita's pride. ok.
But then ? There is no reason for him to say to Piccolo, Dende, and Kuririn that he's as strong as Bejita. Bejita is dead The only reason is that Toriyama didn't thought about SSJ3 at this moment.

And if you don't like this, maybe you can argue with my "out-off universe".

Oh, sorry, my bad. With that, it's more likely that he was giving Vegeta a fair fight. Goku is obsessed with making sure his fights are fair (see Freeza, Cell, Piccolo) and he didn't want to just flatten Vegeta.
He's saying that because he feel's it's not his place, as a dead man, to save the living world. Later on, he's alive, and everyone else is dead, so that same lie doesn't hold up in the later Buu Arc.

I don't really like bringing out of universe arguements into an in-universe forum. I have no idea what was going on in Toryama's mind, and it's more fun to go along with what's given in the official media without having to resort to out of universe speculation. I have no problem with in universe speculation though

[BejitaSama]

The whole Buu cocoon thing was a special case like Super Buu said. No one really knows how it works.

We have two cludes : the cocoon of Good Buu didn't serv to drain power as for Gohan and the others (or Super Buu didn't say that it was special). Super Buu said "he won't be himself anymore".
I have my idea on this !

DIT: yes there is a page saying that by removing Buu's absorptions he became weaker so it doesn't specifically say South Kaioshin strengthened Buu but since it's stated that he was weakened after removing his absorptions and was strengthened in his South Kaioshin absorbed state, this means South Kaioshin strengthened Pure Buu. This is on page 27 on the all purpose translation thread. If you are interested.

Of course removing him his absorptions weakened him, he lost Gohan, Piccolo, and boys powers But I don't understand the connexion between this and South Kaioshin

Goku is obsessed with making sure his fights are fair (see Freeza, Cell, Piccolo) and he didn't want to just flatten Vegeta.
He's saying that because he feel's it's not his place, as a dead man, to save the living world. Later on, he's alive, and everyone else is dead, so that same lie doesn't hold up in the later Buu Arc.

You're interprating Goku's mind here Because he never talks about boys at this moment, he just said that if Bejita couldn't beat Fat, he couldn't too.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku is obsessed with making sure his fights are fair (see Freeza, Cell, Piccolo) and he didn't want to just flatten Vegeta.
He's saying that because he feel's it's not his place, as a dead man, to save the living world. Later on, he's alive, and everyone else is dead, so that same lie doesn't hold up in the later Buu Arc.

You're interprating Goku's mind here Because he never talks about boys at this moment, he just said that if Bejita couldn't beat Fat, he couldn't too.

True, but when you apply what he says later, about it not being his place, it makes sense.

[BejitaSama]

True, but when you apply what he says later, about it not being his place, it makes sense.

No no, at this moment, his first thought is to fuse with Bejita or Gohan That's Mister Popo who gave him the idea of the boys !
So there isn't thousands of possiblities here : Either goku prefers to use fusion than his SSJ3, or...Toriyama didn't thought yet to SSJ3. And both can explain Goku's statment in Super Buu's body

[TheMightyOzaru]

Buu is in an absorption pod, he has South Kaioshin and Daikaioshin's influence in him. When he was removed he started reverting back to his Pure self. Since all absorptions were that were removed weakened him, that means Pure Buu is weaker than Super Buu and since South Kaioshin Buu is stronger than Super Buu, South Kaioshin strengthened Pure Buu.