Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Darkprince410]

Goku states that Gohan and Gotenks can FIGHT Buu

With the intention of beating Buu, since that's what the whole conversation was about between him and Vegeta.

he goes on to state that if Buu and Satan didn't help, the whole universe (with Gohan) would be doomed

Yeah, if they hadn't stepped in, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and everyone else that Buu killed on Earth would have remained dead, because Vegeta and Goku would have died before the idea to bring Earth back was even brought up.

It's stated if Buu comes BACK, everyone would be doomed.

Vegeta's statement about this leaves it perfectly open to the possibility of a planet buster.

Goku also states that he and Vegeta should train in case Buu ever does appear again, so they won't lose this time.

He states that they should train so that, in a worse case scenario, they can fight Buu again, which leaves it perfectly open for Gohan and Gotenks to still be stronger than him and able to beat Buu should he appear again (they would be the better case scenarios)

Dragon Ball super has Goku training in case another foe as strong as Buu appears -

Still just follows up with him preparing for a worse case scenario.

Goten makes a statement implying Goku is the strongest in the universe (as far as he knows)

If you're referring to the joke about Chi-Chi being the strongest, in no way does that imply that Goku is the actual strongest. Gohan can still readily be stronger and the joke still work perfectly.

Vegeta has a monologue stating Goku is the strongest in the universe,

Vegeta states that he will surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest in the universe, meaning that he's readily indicating beings more powerful than Goku exist. Besides, the whole #1 stuff in that episode was indicative of Goku being the better fighter, not the strongest, since Vegeta makes specific mention that Goku is #1 because he defeated Buu, even though he didn't use his own power at all to defeat Buu.

Again, Gohan isn't mentioned.

Easily fits into the "everyone else" aspect of it. He specifically mentions Goku by name because that's what his obsession over the years has been based on, the surpassing of Goku. The fact though that he readily admits that he needs to surpass Goku and everyone else in the universe to become the strongest indicates that he doesn't truly consider Goku the strongest.

Goku hesitates to fight Kid Buu, stating that he'll use the Dragonballs to wish back whoever was harmed (but apparently not wish back Gohan, nor did Kiaoshinn offer himself up to bring him back, like he did for Goku)

Goku was only able to be brought back like that because his body was already there, already processed by Enma, and already in possession of his body. As such, it could be resurrected right on the spot. With Gohan, there's no indication that he had been processed by Enma yet, no indication that he was given a new body yet (since his living one was destroyed, etc), thus no way of knowing if Kibitoshin could have even offered himself up to restore Gohan to life at that time.

Vegeta states that ONLY Goku can fight this Buu (While he is dead, just like Gohan and Gotenks)

See above. Vegeta readily had a body at the time for combat purposes, but there's no indication that Gohan and the boys had one yet since they only died a few minutes beforehand.

Vegeta states that Goku is #1

Entire dialogue revolves around Goku's motives for combat and why he strives for victory, nothing in regards to actual strength.

We *you* literally have to be creative with your thinking just to hold ONE LINE that was immidaitely ignored, as more powerful than everything that appears afterwards.

If Vegeta had thought Goku's idea of bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight was a bad idea (i.e. that it'd fail) he'd readily say as much, since he's never hesitated to call any of Goku's ideas stupid if he thought they were. He plainly and clearly shoots down the idea only because he feels that it's up to the people of the Earth to help defend themselves for once, and makes no suggestion that he thinks the idea itself was bad.

The interview in Daizenshuu 2 states that Goku is the pure strongest in the universe.

Since no specific time frame is mentioned for that interview, that statement about Goku being the strongest could readily be meaning after the ten year time skip, when we know he has become significantly stronger.

Daizenshuu 7 compares Vegetto's power directly to SSJ3 Goku

Gohan and Gotenks were out of the picture at the time (having been absorbed by Buu, so they were comparing Vegetto with the next strongest hero.

BOG's benchmark was a being stronger than SSJ3 Goku

BOG promotional material also states that Gohan is stronger than pure blooded Saiya-jin, which would include his father.

And again, you also have guidebooks stating that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 (not specifying a character, thus can only work if they're meaning Goku as well), that Buu grew weaker after he lost his absorptions (using Buu's reversion to Pure Buu to illustrate this), etc.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Goku states that Gohan and Gotenks can FIGHT Buu

With the intention of beating Buu, since that's what the whole conversation was about between him and Vegeta.

he goes on to state that if Buu and Satan didn't help, the whole universe (with Gohan) would be doomed

Yeah, if they hadn't stepped in, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and everyone else that Buu killed on Earth would have remained dead, because Vegeta and Goku would have died before the idea to bring Earth back was even brought up.

It's stated if Buu comes BACK, everyone would be doomed.

Vegeta's statement about this leaves it perfectly open to the possibility of a planet buster.

Goku also states that he and Vegeta should train in case Buu ever does appear again, so they won't lose this time.

He states that they should train so that, in a worse case scenario, they can fight Buu again, which leaves it perfectly open for Gohan and Gotenks to still be stronger than him and able to beat Buu should he appear again (they would be the better case scenarios)

Dragon Ball super has Goku training in case another foe as strong as Buu appears -

Still just follows up with him preparing for a worse case scenario.

Goten makes a statement implying Goku is the strongest in the universe (as far as he knows)

If you're referring to the joke about Chi-Chi being the strongest, in no way does that imply that Goku is the actual strongest. Gohan can still readily be stronger and the joke still work perfectly.

Vegeta has a monologue stating Goku is the strongest in the universe,

Vegeta states that he will surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest in the universe, meaning that he's readily indicating beings more powerful than Goku exist. Besides, the whole #1 stuff in that episode was indicative of Goku being the better fighter, not the strongest, since Vegeta makes specific mention that Goku is #1 because he defeated Buu, even though he didn't use his own power at all to defeat Buu.

Again, Gohan isn't mentioned.

Easily fits into the "everyone else" aspect of it. He specifically mentions Goku by name because that's what his obsession over the years has been based on, the surpassing of Goku. The fact though that he readily admits that he needs to surpass Goku and everyone else in the universe to become the strongest indicates that he doesn't truly consider Goku the strongest.

Goku hesitates to fight Kid Buu, stating that he'll use the Dragonballs to wish back whoever was harmed (but apparently not wish back Gohan, nor did Kiaoshinn offer himself up to bring him back, like he did for Goku)

Goku was only able to be brought back like that because his body was already there, already processed by Enma, and already in possession of his body. As such, it could be resurrected right on the spot. With Gohan, there's no indication that he had been processed by Enma yet, no indication that he was given a new body yet (since his living one was destroyed, etc), thus no way of knowing if Kibitoshin could have even offered himself up to restore Gohan to life at that time.

Vegeta states that ONLY Goku can fight this Buu (While he is dead, just like Gohan and Gotenks)

See above. Vegeta readily had a body at the time for combat purposes, but there's no indication that Gohan and the boys had one yet since they only died a few minutes beforehand.

Vegeta states that Goku is #1

Entire dialogue revolves around Goku's motives for combat and why he strives for victory, nothing in regards to actual strength.

We *you* literally have to be creative with your thinking just to hold ONE LINE that was immidaitely ignored, as more powerful than everything that appears afterwards.

If Vegeta had thought Goku's idea of bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight was a bad idea (i.e. that it'd fail) he'd readily say as much, since he's never hesitated to call any of Goku's ideas stupid if he thought they were. He plainly and clearly shoots down the idea only because he feels that it's up to the people of the Earth to help defend themselves for once, and makes no suggestion that he thinks the idea itself was bad.

The interview in Daizenshuu 2 states that Goku is the pure strongest in the universe.

Since no specific time frame is mentioned for that interview, that statement about Goku being the strongest could readily be meaning after the ten year time skip, when we know he has become significantly stronger.

Daizenshuu 7 compares Vegetto's power directly to SSJ3 Goku

Gohan and Gotenks were out of the picture at the time (having been absorbed by Buu, so they were comparing Vegetto with the next strongest hero.

BOG's benchmark was a being stronger than SSJ3 Goku

BOG promotional material also states that Gohan is stronger than pure blooded Saiya-jin, which would include his father.

And again, you also have guidebooks stating that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 (not specifying a character, thus can only work if they're meaning Goku as well), that Buu grew weaker after he lost his absorptions (using Buu's reversion to Pure Buu to illustrate this), etc.

Gohan doesn't have his Ultimate power in RoF or BoG which is why first form Freeza could one punch him. And why he could go SSJ.

[Darkprince410]

Gohan doesn't have his Ultimate power in RoF or BoG which is why first form Freeza could one punch him. And why he could go SSJ.

It's only in Revival of F that we can safely say that he didn't. There's a reason that they went and changed Gohan from fighting Beerus as a Super Saiya-jin in early images of Battle of Gods to fighting him in what comes off as his post Rou Kaioushin power-up state in the theatrical release. Yes, he does still transform for the ritual, but Toei changed it so he wasn't a Super Saiya-jin when trying to fight Beerus, despite powering up to do battle with him, which points to his "Ultimate" power.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku goes on to state that he will have to beat Buu and find away to escape.

Goku and Vegeta go on to comment how Kid Buu's power increased during transformation and it's confirmed by Kaioshinn. Kaioshinn states Buu is more evil AND more powerful than before. We know this is true because Buu destroys the Earth despite the peas of Goku and Vegeta (evil) with a blast that cannot be stopped (powerful)

And fight =/= beat.

I pointed out how Goku outright lied (and told Piccolo in privacy such) and reiterated his point to Elder Kaio and Vegeta while stating that he could "beat" Buu.

And again, there are no statements showing that 1. you have to master any SSJ form to supress it, 2. That Goten/Trunks mastered it (the daizenshuu says otherwise) 3. that you can't supress SSJ2/3. It's an assumption.

Finally, I looked up Daizenshuu 7 and I don't see the quote.

No he doesn't. He states that the only way out is to beat Buu, merely stating a fact; Buu responds by repeating what Goku said not two minutes ago: "You can't beat me, you're gonna die here". Then Vegeta pulls out Mr. Buu's pod, because they were screwed otherwise.

You're lying. Again. No one says his power increases when he transforms into Pure Buu (it increases a bit when he transforms into Buff Buu, but that's immediately followed by them saying he's weaker when he actually transforms into Pure Buu). In fact, they say the opposite; they go from "we're almost there, but he's still too strong" to "We did it! Now we can win!". Kaioshin in particular says absolutely nothing relating to power (other than Fat Buu < Pure Buu).

"Fight" is any violent confrontation. It should go without saying that Goku is using "have them fight" as the solution to the problem of "how do we beat Buu?". This is like arguing about Piccolo has a chance against Super Buu because Buu said he'd "fight" them, not "beat" them.

About Fat Buu. You didn't bring up Goku's clear statement about how he can't beat Super Buu.

Obviously you do, as Vegeta was surprised when Goku did it. Obviously Goten and Trunks did master it, as they can suppress their battle power, have relaxed facial expressions, and have the FPSS aura. Obviously you can't suppress SS2/SS3, as it was considered a shock to be able to suppress SS1, and Goku explicitly says the form is unstable and he hasn't practiced with it.

Look harder.

"He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened."

There's no two ways about it: the way everything is written during the final fight with Pure Buu suggests Goku is stronger than Gohan (and Pure Buu stronger than Super Buu). Even if the possibility of Gohan and Gotenks lending a hand with Buu is brought up, it's never treated as a definitive, foolproof way to win. The way everything concerning the genkidama is written, the way every single character behaves, suggests that Goku and the genkidama are the last and only hope.

Utter horseshit. Goku explicitly acknowledges the possibility of bringing in Gohan to solve the problem, but Vegeta rejects this to make a moral point, not because it wouldn't work. This is clearly spelled out in the text. Which is why "bring the boys" is the first thing that comes to mind for Goku, not "restore my energy so I can do what I just did except with full power this time, so it'll work".

Trying to prove otherwise by deconstructing and overanalyzing every word spoken in these chapters is, in my opinion, grasping at straws.

Right, because assuming that every character wasn't lying and acting retarded the whole arc is "grasping at straws". Not, as one would assume, flat-out denying a clearly written and unambiguous statement of the power hierarchy, like "I can't beat Super Buu".

Saying that Toriyama intended the final struggles with the genkidama and the climax to the whole series to be interpreted in a it's-no-big-deal-Gohan-can-easily-defeat-Buu-anyway kind of way is grasping at straws. It's obviously being portrayed as a desperate situation, and if Gohan and Gotenks could beat the crap out of Buu without breaking a sweat then it wouldn't be a desperate situation.

Utter horseshit. It's explicitly pointed out several times that Buu wouldn't be a threat if Goku and Vegeta weren't interested in having fun/making a point. Forget Gohan; there was nothing stopping them from using the Potara earrings even after Vegeta crushed the first pair, since Kibitoshin can spawn new ones at will. There was also nothing stopping them from restoring Goku's energy and having him wipe out Buu, or doing the fusion dance while Mr. Buu was fighting Pure Buu.

So that's the thing: Goku being treated as the strongest one by everybody (even during the final fight with Buu in the original manga) is as obvious as Goku stating something that unmistakably puts him below Gohan.

Except he's never treated as the strongest. He keeps stating his inferiority to Super Buu all throughout the last volume: in Buu's body, after Pure Buu first forms, after he loses to Pure Buu and recommends bringing Gohan, etc.

There are only two ways to reconcile that, from an in-universe perspective: either we say “Goku lied/made a mistake when he said he couldn't beat Super Buu, even though there is no apparent reason that would explain his lie/mistake” or we say that, during the final battle with Pure Buu, “every single character in the show suddenly became stupid and completely forgot that both Gohan and Gotenks could easily defeat Buu, and the whole climax of the show is stupidly pointless because it's not a climax at all”.

No one forgot. It was brought up as an option. Vegeta shot it down to make a moral point, just like he shot down the suggestion of fusion. Did this person even read the manga?

And that's why this is a neverending discussion: both possibilities are pretty far-fetched, although I would personally argue that the latter is far more “disruptive” (from a narrative point of view).

Absolutely nothing about the Super Buu > Pure Buu option is far-fetched in the least. It's stated or shown so many times that denying it is tantamount to denying Trunks's superiority over Freeza. Heck, it's worse than that, since the entire story from Goku saying Gotenks can win to Goku and Vegeta ripping out Mr. Buu doesn't work if Goku is the strongest. What, for example, was stopping him from kicking Super Buu's ass after they ripped out Gohan? And why the fuck would no one throw the kids into the ROSAT when they were the only hope of beating Buu if they were that weak? And why does every fight, from Goku's bout against Fat Buu (they're not far apart, and Goku is sweating after it is over), to Mr. Buu's fight with Pure Buu (Grey Buu did better), to the Genki-Dama (a quarter of Gohan's ki, plus the ki of a token few others, is almost enough to kill Pure Buu on its own), show Super Buu/Gotenks/Gohan as being stronger?

The thing is, ever since Goku said that sentence which implied that he was weaker than Gohan,

Flat-out stated, more like. On top of repeating the same thing about a dozen times in a single volume.

In the last section of the manga (debatable, I guess, although, as I have argued, I think it's pretty obvious), in the new movies (no question, including Battle of Gods, which is the most relevant one in this discussion) and in the new show (from what I have read, no question either). So

BOG's promotional material states that Gohan has power surpassing the true saiyans, and has Vegeta be shocked by the group losing to Beerus even after he hears that he two-shotted SS3 Goku. Not to mention that neither it nor Super are relevant to begin with, being anime productions.

So we've kind of reached a point in which... yeah, there was this instance in which Goku said something that could only be interpreted as him being weaker than Gohan, only immediately after that he was being written and treated as the strongest character, and every single iteration of the franchise in the last 20 years, including those written by Toriyama himself, has treated him as the strongest character.

You mean like the JSAT special, where he had to go SS to defeat someone that Gotenks toyed with in base? Or BOG, where Beerus defeating Gotenks/Gohan was treated as being more impressive than two-shotting Goku? Or the revised manga ending, where he was still excited to fight a Pure Buu level opponent which was explicitly acknowledged as being weaker than Gohan and co in the last volume? Or the post-manga guidebooks saying, among other things, that Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu, absorbing South Kaioshin made Buu stronger, and removing Mr. Buu's pod made Buu weaker? Not that this matters, again.

. So, short of Super having a scene in which Goku suddenly says "Hey, Vegeta, remember that time when we were trapped inside Super Buu and I said I couldn't beat him? I lied because I didn't want to hurt your feelings!" (or something like that), I don't think they can put it more clearly.

This, at least, is correct. It really can't get any more obvious than Goku saying "I can't beat Super Buu", or "Gotenks is stronger than me".

[dbgtFO]

Goku states that Gohan and Gotenks can FIGHT Buu, he goes on to state that if Buu and Satan didn't help, the whole universe (with Gohan) would be doomed
It's stated if Buu comes BACK, everyone would be doomed. Goku also states that he and Vegeta should train in case Buu ever does appear again, so they won't lose this time.

No implication that Gohan could do anything - Goku only guesses if that was Vegeta's plan, which it wasn't (and apparently it's such a terrible Idea, it isn't brought up again)

And Goku makes no note of this being due to Buu's strength. We've already seen Gotenks and Gohan fail against a Majin Buu weaker than them, so it doesn't prove anything in regards to strength of the characters.
Yes and Goku is talking about a worse case scenario, that apparently includes Vegeta. We know for a fact that Vegeta is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan, so it doesn't necessarily prove Goku or Kid Buu were stronger than Gotenks and Gohan.

Dragon Ball super has Goku training in case another foe as strong as Buu appears -
Goten makes a statement implying Goku is the strongest in the universe (as far as he knows)
Vegeta has a monologue stating Goku is the strongest in the universe,

Again, Gohan isn't mentioned.

Well yeah it continues on from DBZ Kai, where Kid Buu is the straight up strongest Buu, so go figure. Furthermore Vegeta doesn't state Goku is the strongest in the universe. He just says that Goku is number 1.

Here is what I don't understand:

Goku says that he can't beat Buu, and when forced to face him changes his tune and states the opposite.
When Pure Buu appears he is explicitly stated to be stronger than before twice and proves it.

Goku doesn't state he can beat Super Buu. He's stating that's their only option like Kaioshin stating you'd have to kill Dabra to unstone Krillin and Piccolo, not that he'd actually be capable of it. And Buu retorts that Goku and Vegeta can't and settles it.

Goku hesitates to fight Kid Buu, stating that he'll use the Dragonballs to wish back whoever was harmed (but apparently not wish back Gohan, nor did Kiaoshinn offer himself up to bring him back, like he did for Goku)
Goku states 2 options for victory, one being Fusion (though as far as we know, no earring exist)
The other is a Full power blast

Vegeta states that ONLY Goku can fight this Buu (While he is dead, just like Gohan and Gotenks)
Vegeta states that Goku is #1

In the current circumstances, that were their options. When Gohan and Goten and Trunks were brought back, they gained a further option.
Vegeta is talking about how he stacks up to Goku. Gohan and Gotenks aren't brought up at all, as they aren't relevant to Vegeta monolouging about his rivalry with Goku.

Goku lose, and says that the universe is doomed (no Gohan mentioned)
Vegeta wishes everyone back and his plan doesn't involve Gohan and Gotenks (who are part of the planet)

Goku and Vegeta take the energy from EVERYONE up "To the limit" including power from the Kaioshin, Otherworld and Namek (you know, places that aren't Earth) just to defeat Buu.

And that doesn't prove they are weaker than Kid Buu either. All we can gather is that their ki wasn't enough to eradicate Buu, not that their ki levels are actually weaker than Buu's.

Again...how would have bringing Gohan to supposedly beat Buu be LESS easy?
We *you* literally have to be creative with your thinking just to hold ONE LINE that was immidaitely ignored, as more powerful than everything that appears afterwards.

The interview in Daizenshuu 2 states that Goku is the pure strongest in the universe.
Goten's coversation with Goku in DBS says the same
Daizenshuu 7 compares Vegetto's power directly to SSJ3 Goku
BOG's benchmark was a being stronger than SSJ3 Goku
ETC
ETC

That quote is attributed to the interviewer, not Toriyama. DB Super already covered. Vegetto is stronger than Goku, yes, I don't see how that proves anything. Of course that's BoG, a Toei production, where Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.

Nothing is mentioned about Gohan outside of the 2 minutes of fame he appears for, how do people believe that he was actually meant to be something special?

Clearly he wasn't as he gets outsmarted by a weaker opponent. Doesn't make him incapable of actually being stronger than Goku though. For some reason the anime in true shonen spirit had the final and smallest villain being even stronger than any of his other forms to make it more dramatic or whatever, even though it doesn't make much sense, that Goku would want to fuse against a guy apparently much weaker than that, when he could just roflstomp him.

There seems to be a clamor for things to just escalate and escalate, when the original author seemed to have something completely different in mind.
He has Goku claiming they won't need to merge, only if they manage to return Buu to his fat form and then has Goku stating that Super Buu is just straight up stronger. When the confrontation takes place Goku cowers and tries not to engage in line with his admittance and they get out of there by having Vegeta pull out the Fat one, hoping that Buu's power drops.
When Kid Buu appears Goku is confident once again and he is now willing to fight this new Buu without needing to merge, because that Buu isn't merged either.
Easy and simple, the author establishes that in terms of strength Super Buu is Goku's superior, whereas Kid Buu is not.
He does not have anyone comparing the strengths of Goku or Kid Buu to Gotenks and Gohan, but still has Kid Buu as being a major threat, one that would destroy everyone, but crucially doesn't state, that it's because of his strength he would accomplish that, leaving Goku < Super Buu uncontradicted. One can just interprete it like that, but it is not set in stone.

If Toriyama really wanted to portray Goku and Kid Buu as the absolute strongest, then he would have done so. He has no trouble with Elder Kaioshin saying his magic will make Gohan the strongest in the universe and Super Gotenks bragging about being the strongest in the universe. Nor does he have any problem with Goku saying his strength is no match for Super Buu's, but when it comes to Kid Buu, he doesn't get an "even stronger than!" claim. All he gets is "the most troublesome one of all!"
Goku doesn't get that either. He gets "stronger than Fat Buu", some compliments from Vegeta who had yet to experience the full scope of Goku's power and the statement that Goku could probably take Kid Buu and that's it.
Furthermore he has the weak Vegeta and Fat Buu fight Kid Buu and that doesn't lend much credence to Kid Buu's strength either, as beating Gohan and Gotenks in a 1on1 battle would have been far more impressive and settled any debate. Instead he doesn't and has the fight being won not by the necessarily strongest person with a flashy transformation, but by all of humanity working towards one goal and as Vegeta said, not relying on them to do it.

[RandomGuy96]

Clearly he wasn't as he gets outsmarted by a weaker opponent. Doesn't make him incapable of actually being stronger than Goku though. For some reason the anime in true shonen spirit had the final and smallest villain being even stronger than any of his other forms to make it more dramatic or whatever, even though it doesn't make much sense, that Goku would want to fuse against a guy apparently much weaker than that, when he could just roflstomp him.

I'd argue that the anime still portrays Super Buu and co as stronger, despite the last minute attempt to paint Pure Buu as stronger than Buuhan via two lines.

And that doesn't prove they are weaker than Kid Buu either. All we can gather is that their ki wasn't enough to eradicate Buu, not that their ki levels are actually weaker than Buu's.

Correction, their genki wasn't enough. Since Gohan's genki itself is only "probably not enough" to completely annihilate Buu, it seems pretty clear that Gohan's full power (if Ginyu-Goku is any indication, genki is about 1/4 of ki) would have been enough if he could have donated it. Or if he was there himself.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta states that he will surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest in the universe, meaning that he's readily indicating beings more powerful than Goku exist.

This part of your post seems a bit odd to me. Why do you think the "everyone else" part means there are other beings more powerful than Goku? Doesn't Vegeta label Goku as the strongest Saiyan? If there was a non-Saiyan that strong, don't you think Vegeta would mention names? To not let the said part without explanation, it could mean there are other beings besides Goku that are also stronger than Vegeta (like Fat Boo, Gohan, etc).

In another hand, I'm in agreement with the rest. Goku explicitily atributes his victory to the genkidama move and took his credit with the universe (and his friends and family), while Mr. Satan took his with Earthlings.

As for the "worst case scenario" stuff, I think about Boo becoming Gohan Boo again and not having Vegetto to confront him.

[h0kuten]

Vegeta states that he will surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest in the universe, meaning that he's readily indicating beings more powerful than Goku exist.

This part of your post seems a bit odd to me. Why do you think the "everyone else" part means there are other beings more powerful than Goku? Doesn't Vegeta label Goku as the strongest Saiyan? If there was a non-Saiyan that strong, don't you think Vegeta would mention names? To not let the said part without explanation, it could mean there are other beings besides Goku that are also stronger than Vegeta (like Fat Boo, Gohan, etc).

In another hand, I'm in agreement with the rest. Goku explicitily atributes his victory to the genkidama move and took his credit with the universe (and his friends and family), while Mr. Satan took his with Earthlings.

As for the "worst case scenario" stuff, I think about Boo becoming Gohan Boo again and not having Vegetto to confront him.

Vegeta made a clear distinction between Earth, where Goku is currently the strongest, and the UNIVERSE. Seriously? Why don't people comprehend that? The entire premise of Super is to introduce beings stronger than Goku.

[Truhan]

And there's no one denying that with a few months he could close the gap between him, as a SSJ3, and Ultimate Gohan, who will most likely lose grasp of his Hidden Potential. For Gohan to turn SSJ instead of "Ultimate" means that Vegeta gets bumped into #2 as well, if not because of his rage boost. Let's wait until more episodes, please.

[h0kuten]

Vegeta is clearly the strongest in Battle of Gods. We have supporting feats and implications with absolutely nothing on the contrary. Further-more, strongest in the Universe can clearly be a reference to Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks but not necessarily Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta states that he will surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest in the universe, meaning that he's readily indicating beings more powerful than Goku exist.

This part of your post seems a bit odd to me. Why do you think the "everyone else" part means there are other beings more powerful than Goku? Doesn't Vegeta label Goku as the strongest Saiyan? If there was a non-Saiyan that strong, don't you think Vegeta would mention names? To not let the said part without explanation, it could mean there are other beings besides Goku that are also stronger than Vegeta (like Fat Boo, Gohan, etc).

In another hand, I'm in agreement with the rest. Goku explicitily atributes his victory to the genkidama move and took his credit with the universe (and his friends and family), while Mr. Satan took his with Earthlings.

As for the "worst case scenario" stuff, I think about Boo becoming Gohan Boo again and not having Vegetto to confront him.

Vegeta made a clear distinction between Earth, where Goku is currently the strongest, and the UNIVERSE. Seriously? Why don't people comprehend that? The entire premise of Super is to introduce beings stronger than Goku.

What are you talking about? Didn't Vegeta say Goku was #1 in the universe and the strongest Saiyan? Or do you mean the god-level characters?

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta is clearly the strongest in Battle of Gods. We have supporting feats and implications with absolutely nothing on the contrary. Further-more, strongest in the Universe can clearly be a reference to Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks but not necessarily Goku.

As said many times before, given that Beerus was clearly shown fluctuating his strength based on who he was fighting, Vegeta was far from "clearly the strongest".

[h0kuten]

Vegeta is clearly the strongest in Battle of Gods. We have supporting feats and implications with absolutely nothing on the contrary. Further-more, strongest in the Universe can clearly be a reference to Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks but not necessarily Goku.

As said many times before, given that Beerus was clearly shown fluctuating his strength based on who he was fighting, Vegeta was far from "clearly the strongest".

I guess Super Buu fluctuated his when he hit Trunks.

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta is clearly the strongest in Battle of Gods. We have supporting feats and implications with absolutely nothing on the contrary. Further-more, strongest in the Universe can clearly be a reference to Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks but not necessarily Goku.

As said many times before, given that Beerus was clearly shown fluctuating his strength based on who he was fighting, Vegeta was far from "clearly the strongest".

I guess Super Buu fluctuated his when he hit Trunks.

Since there's nothing to assume that he struck Trunks at full force, and that a full force punch, given the difference in strength, would have taken Trunks' head off easily, then all signs point to yes.

[Taskmaster]

Yeah, I read through all of this and it seems like an awful lot of 'intent' can be interpreted a different way (mine, the majority of fans) in the contrived way you listed, OR is just plain nonexistent.

I'm on my phone, so I won't respond to every message individually, but some points I picked up while reading.

'Kid Buu's power decreased'
No power decrease was mentioned, however Kaioshin stated (with no contridiction I might add) and proven by a feat. That Buu's power increased. And I will point out his statement contridicted Goku and followed a precedent set from all major Villains including Frieza and Cell.

'SSJ3 can't be supressed'
Absolutely false and not stated anywhere. The daizenshu does state only Goku and Gohan are mastered SSJs while Gohan can raise his battle power as a SSJ2, as can Goku, abd Goten and Trunks are shown to change their battle power as SSJs.

'Goku daid he couldn't beat Buu and he (Buu agreed)
Actually Buu's reasoning wasn't power, it was Goku's size. Even Goku admitted he would beat Buu and find a way out - he even seemed confident (and then surprised) when he couldn't harm Buu at his size. The answer is obvious.

'Gohan's bio in BOG states he stronger than Full Blooded sayins'
Not quiet, he's stronger than A full blooded sayin - and why not say all, why not say Goku if it were true? Of course it's not, as the Benchmark set for creating the movie was clearly stated to be Goku.

'The anime supports Super > Kid.'
No it doesn't. Not in the slightest, it blatantly states Kid Buu is the strongest many times.

And honestly why does the story have to play out in such a silly and contrived manner as many of you suggest - why couldn't Toriyama just say fuck it (as I assume he did) and Just make Goku stronger when he fought Buu. No comment made in the final battle and since suggested that he didn't.

[Darkprince410]

'Kid Buu's power decreased'
No power decrease was mentioned, however Kaioshin stated (with no contridiction I might add) and proven by a feat. That Buu's power increased. And I will point out his statement contridicted Goku and followed a precedent set from all major Villains including Freeza and Cell.

Actually, a power decrease is indicated. When Goku and Vegeta had removed all the cocoons within Buu outside of Mr. Buu, Goku makes this comment about Buu's power.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”

This statement that they're "almost there" means that they've weakened him a good bit, but they've not weakened him as far as they've wanted to. Remember, they're trying to weaken him to a point to where they don't need fusion in order to beat him, so this statement establishes that they've weakened him some, but not as far as they've wanted.

Then, when Buu completely reverts from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu, Goku makes this statement.

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

What is he saying "we did it!" for? Saying that indicates the completion of a goal they were striving for, and at the time they only had two goals. 1) Getting everyone out of Buu, and 2) Weakening Buu to where they could manage something on their own.

Since they had already completed goal #1 a good while before Goku made that statement, #2 is the only goal he has to be referring to, thus him stating "We did it" is indicating that they completed the goal that they had yet to complete while they were in Evil Buu, which was weaken him to the point they could fight him on their own.

Likewise, Kibitoshin never actually stated that Buu's power increased from where it was as Evil Buu, simply that he no longer had the Dai Kaioushin's influence weakening him, which returned him to being pure evil. However, he was also now missing all the power he gained from having absorbed the South Kaioushin. In addition, Kibitoshin's entire fear over Pure Buu is indicated to be because of his uncontrollable evil, not his strength.

Actually Buu's reasoning wasn't power, it was Goku's size. Even Goku admitted he would beat Buu and find a way out - he even seemed confident (and then surprised) when he couldn't harm Buu at his size. The answer is obvious.

No, Goku never said that he would beat Buu and find a way out. He said that he realizes that the only way out would be to beat Buu, which is a far different situation. Saying that the only way he can escape is to beat Buu is simply laying out the facts of the scenario given, and isn't Goku making any kind of declaration or statement about him being able to beat Buu.

Not quiet, he's stronger than A full blooded sayin - and why not say all, why not say Goku if it were true? Of course it's not, as the Benchmark set for creating the movie was clearly stated to be Goku.

Benchmark was never stated to be Goku. Remember how shocked Vegeta was over how Beerus had thrashed everyone at Bulma's party, even after he had learned that Goku had been effortlessly taken out by him earlier? If Goku were more powerful than Gohan and the others at that time, then Vegeta wouldn't have been shocked in the slightest. Besides, why would they need to specifically mention Goku if full-blooded Saiya-jin covers Goku easily. It's not needing to make a specification because full-blooded Saiya-jin covers all necessary individuals anyway.

It's the same way as guide books stating that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3. Since it's not specifying an individual, it's blanket covering both Goku and Gotenks.

And honestly why does the story have to play out in such a silly and contrived manner as many of you suggest - why couldn't Toriyama just say fuck it (as I assume he did) and Just make Goku stronger when he fought Buu. No comment made in the final battle and since suggested that he didn't.

Because he just chose to do it the way he did, that Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku, but to make Goku be the one to save the day in the end, they were conveniently written out so that Goku was the only one capable of fighting.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

'Kid Buu's power decreased'
No power decrease was mentioned, however Kaioshin stated (with no contridiction I might add) and proven by a feat. That Buu's power increased. And I will point out his statement contridicted Goku and followed a precedent set from all major Villains including Freeza and Cell.

Actually, a power decrease is indicated. When Goku and Vegeta had removed all the cocoons within Buu outside of Mr. Buu, Goku makes this comment about Buu's power.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”

This statement that they're "almost there" means that they've weakened him a good bit, but they've not weakened him as far as they've wanted to. Remember, they're trying to weaken him to a point to where they don't need fusion in order to beat him, so this statement establishes that they've weakened him some, but not as far as they've wanted.

Then, when Buu completely reverts from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu, Goku makes this statement.

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

What is he saying "we did it!" for? Saying that indicates the completion of a goal they were striving for, and at the time they only had two goals. 1) Getting everyone out of Buu, and 2) Weakening Buu to where they could manage something on their own.

Since they had already completed goal #1 a good while before Goku made that statement, #2 is the only goal he has to be referring to, thus him stating "We did it" is indicating that they completed the goal that they had yet to complete while they were in Evil Buu, which was weaken him to the point they could fight him on their own.

Likewise, Kibitoshin never actually stated that Buu's power increased from where it was as Evil Buu, simply that he no longer had the Dai Kaioushin's influence weakening him, which returned him to being pure evil. However, he was also now missing all the power he gained from having absorbed the South Kaioushin. In addition, Kibitoshin's entire fear over Pure Buu is indicated to be because of his uncontrollable evil, not his strength.

Actually Buu's reasoning wasn't power, it was Goku's size. Even Goku admitted he would beat Buu and find a way out - he even seemed confident (and then surprised) when he couldn't harm Buu at his size. The answer is obvious.

No, Goku never said that he would beat Buu and find a way out. He said that he realizes that the only way out would be to beat Buu, which is a far different situation. Saying that the only way he can escape is to beat Buu is simply laying out the facts of the scenario given, and isn't Goku making any kind of declaration or statement about him being able to beat Buu.

Not quiet, he's stronger than A full blooded sayin - and why not say all, why not say Goku if it were true? Of course it's not, as the Benchmark set for creating the movie was clearly stated to be Goku.

Benchmark was never stated to be Goku. Remember how shocked Vegeta was over how Beerus had thrashed everyone at Bulma's party, even after he had learned that Goku had been effortlessly taken out by him earlier? If Goku were more powerful than Gohan and the others at that time, then Vegeta wouldn't have been shocked in the slightest. Besides, why would they need to specifically mention Goku if full-blooded Saiya-jin covers Goku easily. It's not needing to make a specification because full-blooded Saiya-jin covers all necessary individuals anyway.

It's the same way as guide books stating that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3. Since it's not specifying an individual, it's blanket covering both Goku and Gotenks.

And honestly why does the story have to play out in such a silly and contrived manner as many of you suggest - why couldn't Toriyama just say fuck it (as I assume he did) and Just make Goku stronger when he fought Buu. No comment made in the final battle and since suggested that he didn't.

Because he just chose to do it the way he did, that Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku, but to make Goku be the one to save the day in the end, they were conveniently written out so that Goku was the only one capable of fighting.

What is your theory on how South Kaioshin made Boo so powerful? Do you think his Kaioshin powers were just abnormal in the same way that Dai Kaioshin weakened him?

[Kamiccolo9]

What is your theory on how South Kaioshin made Boo so powerful? Do you think his Kaioshin powers were just abnormal in the same way that Dai Kaioshin weakened him?

Why can't he just have been really strong?

[RandomGuy96]

What is your theory on how South Kaioshin made Boo so powerful? Do you think his Kaioshin powers were just abnormal in the same way that Dai Kaioshin weakened him?

Why can't he just have been really strong?

Well, the problem with him being like ten times stronger than Pure Buu or something is that Mr. Buu isn't anywhere near that strong, and there's no reason Mr. Buu shouldn't have access to SK's power. You could just say that Super Buu isn't ten times stronger than Pure Buu, I guess, and Gotenks' SS forms don't work like everybody else's. Or that SK multiplies power in the same way that DK appears to divide it.

[Kaboom]

There's other hints that Kaioshin energy doesn't mesh well with Boo's, so I usually just assume that absorbing the Kaioshin had wildly unpredictable effects on Boo, which were based more on their non-power qualities. South Kaioshin's burliness made Boo stronger and Grand Kaioshin's purity clashed with Boo's evil and made him weaker.