Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Bansho64]

For those who read the manga version of this arc, is Goku handled better there?.

A lot better. Much more bearable than the some of the stuff I've seen flowing out of the anime. Overall, I'd call him a much more battle-intelligent and tactful character compared to his anime counterpart. I've never been annoyed with him in the manga, which is something I couldn't even come close to saying for his anime counterpart.

[Lord Beerus]

Future Zamasu is the first villain that's never lost in a battle.

[Noah]

What do you guys think about levels of immortality?

Remember when Shenron said that he couldn't turn C-17 and C-18 into humans cause their powers were greater than his?

That could mean that a person who wished for immortality using the Earth Dragon Balls could be defeated by one who exceeds Shenron's power?

The same could be applied for Porunga and Super Shenron?

[TheUltimateNinja]

What do you guys think about levels of immortality?

Remember when Shenron said that he couldn't turn C17 and C-18 into humans cause their powers were greater than his?

That could mean that a person who wished for immortality using the Earth Dragon Balls could be defeated by one who exceeds Shenron's power?

The same could be applied for Porunga and Super Shenron?

I'd imagine so, my theory is that against someone with a power surpassing Shenron, the wish for immortality would function like Buu's regeneration rather than true immortality and that if every single molecule in their body were destroyed they would not be restored.

[Anime Kitten]

Future Zamasu is the first villain that's never lost in a battle.

Excellent observation.

The same could be applied for Porunga and Super Shenron?

Well, Super Shenron can grant any wish. There's no one except Zen'ō who exceeds that, so Future Zamasu's immortality can't be nullified by anyone who's not Zen'ō.

[Alruneia]

What do you guys think about levels of immortality?
Remember when Shenron said that he couldn't turn C-17 and C-18 into humans cause their powers were greater than his?
That could mean that a person who wished for immortality using the Earth Dragon Balls could be defeated by one who exceeds Shenron's power?
The same could be applied for Porunga and Super Shenron?

You're headed to an area I've made a post about before, so I'll quote myself with some edits for space reasons:

I found a list of immortality types that I'll try to go through.

Type A: Age immortality, which means you can't die from becoming too old.

Type B: No-regen immortality, which means you can't die, but your body can be destroyed.

Type C: Regen immortality, which means your body heals itself from all damage.

Type D: God-given immortality, which means that you're immortal unless killed by a power greater than what granted you immortality to begin with.

Type E: Actual immortality, which means that you literally cannot die. (Technically refers to invincibility.)

Type F: Soul immortality, meaning that when your body is destroyed, you can jump to another. Also known as parasitic immortality.

Type G: Undeath. Undead beings such as vampires and ghosts cannot be killed unless a specific weakness is used.

Type H: Reliant immortality, which is that you're immortal as long as something else maintains its current state.

The creativity usually comes from mixing two or more of these types of immortality. Before we got to know who Black really was, I speculated that Zamasu's immortality was a mix of Type C and Type H, and that if Black was killed, Zamasu would stop being immortal. This is not the case, but it would be a pretty different way of defeating a main villain. It seems he's Type C and maybe also Type D instead, though.

Type D is what you're referring to here. The dragons are the gods that give the immortality, and by surpassing their power, the immortality begins to fail. I suspect that this isn't the case in Dragon Ball, but there's no way of proving or disproving that, since Zamasu is the first canon "proper" immortal character (as in not A or G), and Super Shenron's power hasn't been surpassed yet, at least to our knowledge.

Spoiler:

If Zen'ou actually kills Ethereal Zamasu in Episode 67 (or 68), then that's pretty definite proof that Merged Zamasu is Type B and Type D immortal, since Zen'ou definitely surpasses Zarama and Super Shenron's power. If Zen'ou can't kill him, then that's definite proof that Merged Zamasu is Type B and Type E immortal, since the largest power in the multiverse wasn't enough. If Zen'ou doesn't try to kill him, but immediately does something else, we won't know. I'm specifying Merged Zamasu because normal Zamasu has Type C as proven by his instant regeneration, but if Merged Zamasu's body gets destroyed in the upcoming episodes, then he can't have Type C, meaning he has Type B after fusion.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Future Zamasu is the first villain that's never lost in a battle.

He lost to Goku once, Android 17 only ever lost to Cell. Zamasu is Android 17.

[Soppa Saia People]

How's the Funi dub for the Trunks special ? I know the Bardock one is garbage, but how's Trunks ?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

How's the Funi dub for the Trunks special ? I know the Bardock one is garbage, but how's Trunks ?

It could have been worse, but it has the same problems that the rest of the Z dub does.

[Lord Beerus]

Future Zamasu is the first villain that's never lost in a battle.

He lost to Goku once, Android 17 only ever lost to Cell. Zamasu is Android 17.

Future Zamasu. Not Present Zamasu. Future Zamasu never fought Goku.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Future Zamasu is the first villain that's never lost in a battle.

He lost to Goku once, Android 17 only ever lost to Cell. Zamasu is Android 17.

Future Zamasu. Not Present Zamasu. Future Zamasu never fought Goku.

That's right. had a momentary lapse in memory

[ekrolo2]

Was Vegeta's PL of 18,000 actually stated in the series or was that just a magazine thing?

[Doctor.]

Was Vegeta's PL of 18,000 actually stated in the series or was that just a magazine thing?

Cui's was confirmed at 18k and Dodoria stated he was as strong as Vegeta.

[ekrolo2]

Was Vegeta's PL of 18,000 actually stated in the series or was that just a magazine thing?

Cui's was confirmed at 18k and Dodoria stated he was as strong as Vegeta.

Could that have been Vegeta's old PL even before his Zenkai? I ask because a gap of 6,000 between himself and KKX3 Goku should've gotten him demolished.

[Doctor.]

Was Vegeta's PL of 18,000 actually stated in the series or was that just a magazine thing?

Cui's was confirmed at 18k and Dodoria stated he was as strong as Vegeta.

Could that have been Vegeta's old PL even before his Zenkai? I ask because a gap of 6,000 between himself and KKX3 Goku should've gotten him demolished.

Goku seems to hang around Vegeta well enough with only KKx2, which would put him at 16k. So 18k seems fair enough. Higher than 18k would mean he'd be about as strong as Dodoria. And seeing as how Vegeta only seemed confident enough to kill him on Namek, I wouldn't exactly think he was stronger than him before. Also Vegeta never learned to hide his Ki before going to Earth, so there's no way he could have hid it from Freeza.

[ekrolo2]

Goku seems to hang around Vegeta well enough with only KKx2, which would put him at 16k. So 18k seems fair enough. Higher than 18k would mean he'd be about as strong as Dodoria. And seeing as how Vegeta only seemed confident enough to kill him on Namek, I wouldn't exactly think he was stronger than him before. Also Vegeta never learned to hide his Ki before going to Earth, so there's no way he could have hid it from Freeza.

Hrm, then maybe as an alternative, is it possible Goku wasn't able to fully power up to KKX3? He did seem to have a really hard time increasing his strength and was straining to hold out.

[Doctor.]

Goku seems to hang around Vegeta well enough with only KKx2, which would put him at 16k. So 18k seems fair enough. Higher than 18k would mean he'd be about as strong as Dodoria. And seeing as how Vegeta only seemed confident enough to kill him on Namek, I wouldn't exactly think he was stronger than him before. Also Vegeta never learned to hide his Ki before going to Earth, so there's no way he could have hid it from Freeza.

Hrm, then maybe as an alternative, is it possible Goku wasn't able to fully power up to KKX3? He did seem to have a really hard time increasing his strength and was straining to hold out.

I guess that's possible, but seems like an awful lot of reaching to try to justify inconsistent powerlevels in a series known for inconsistent powerlevels.

[fadeddreams5]

The more I think about it, the more I feel the Black arc would have been a much better final chapter to DBZ than the Buu one, so long as it was heavily expanded.

Think about it, during this period, everyone assumes Goku is dead. What a shocker would it be to find out from Future Trunks that he's still alive and wreaking havoc in his future. Gohan would be forced to fight what he assumes is his father. The hero since the beginning is, seemingly, the final villain at the end. That's awesome.

Obviously, many aspects of the arc would need to be fleshed out, but at its core, not much would need to be changed either, besides introducing the kaioshin, getting rid of this god ki nonsense, and having kaioshin take Beerus/Whis' place. Also, no Goten. Future Trunks' random transformation could easily be replaced with SSJ2. SSJR could still exist and simply be a substitute for regular SSJ. It can be explained that Zamasu met Goku in the other world. etc etc.

Imo, if this arc was created by Toriyama back during the golden era of DB, and expanded into a saga, it might have been the best in the series.

[Noah]

Imo, if this arc was created by Toriyama back during the golden era of DB, and expanded into a saga, it might have been the best in the series.

I don't know if that could work well, though... SSJ2 would still be the peak of the Saiyan power? No SSJ3 or Fusion? SSJR would be slighty stronger then?

[fadeddreams5]

Imo, if this arc was created by Toriyama back during the golden era of DB, and expanded into a saga, it might have been the best in the series.

I don't know if that could work well, though... SSJ2 would still be the peak of the Saiyan power? No SSJ3 or Fusion? SSJR would be slighty stronger then?

If the Buu saga never existed, would you expect a new saga to have SSJ3 or fusion? Fusion in itself was probably the worst part of the Buu saga to me. Well, Gotenks, anyways, and he took up way too many episodes. SSJ3 also didn't accomplish anything, as cool as it is. These things are unnecessary to advance the plot.

I don't know what sort of idea Toriyama would have created if he envisioned the Black arc back then over the Buu one, but that's part of the surprise, I guess. I just prefer the setting over the one in Super.