Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Why should vague guidebook entries (that don't specify a form) hold more weight over what the actual characters say..?

[Kaboom]

Why should vague guidebook entries (that don't specify a form) hold more weight over what the actual characters say..?

So please point to the line of any character saying, "yes, now that Super Saiyan Gotenks has formed right in front of me and I'm sensing his power, I can definitely confirm that his power is greater than Majin Boo's."

If you can't, then please let people go by whichever source they wish.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So please point to the line of any character saying, "yes, now that Super Saiyan Gotenks has formed right in front of me and I'm sensing his power, I can definitely confirm that his power is greater than Majin Boo's."

If you can't, then please let people go by whichever source they wish.

Confirmation?

"Goku said that Fusion's strongest, right...?!"

Krillin, after sensing Gotenks' Ki says this. If Gotenks isn't the strongest, why would Krillin still believe that?

You're aware of what Occam's Razor is, yes?

I believe I've showed you this before as well:

Ignorance fallacy says "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa)". You are asserting a proposition is true based on given evidence, and arguing the evidence against your evidence is little to none. This is a valid argument. If you were saying simply "the evidence against mine is little to none" without first asserting the first part of having evidence, then it'd fall under ignorance fallacy.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenc ... eOfAbsence

More importantly, let's hear why:

1. Goku lied
2. No one ever questioned Goku's statements
3. Piccolo only felt the Room of Spirit and Time was necessary when Super Buu was formed when Gotenks was actually weaker than Fat Buu

Or, most importantly;

4. Why those lines are there if they're wrong? Is Toriyama trolling his readers or something? Does he have his characters say the opposite of what we're supposed to believe? Some writer he is, huh?

[Doctor.]

4. Why those lines are there if they're wrong? Is Toriyama trolling his readers or something? Does he have his characters say the opposite of what we're supposed to believe? Some writer he is, huh?

This can be used for absolutely everything.

Consider the Beerus statement about Goku being weaker than Freeza that you disagree with.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

4. Why those lines are there if they're wrong? Is Toriyama trolling his readers or something? Does he have his characters say the opposite of what we're supposed to believe? Some writer he is, huh?

This can be used for absolutely everything.

Consider the Beerus statement about Goku being weaker than Freeza that you disagree with.

Because it's contradicted by feats.

Gotenks being weaker than Fat Buu is never contradicted, or even implied to be incorrect.

[Doctor.]

Yes. Feats.

You mean it's contradicted by "statements" and "actions" in which you then use "feats" to back them up with. Like Kaioshin, someone stronger than Freeza, being "scared" of Pui Pui, when base Vegeta killed him, am I correct? That's not a feat.

Likewise, you could use the same logic here. Base Gotenks got his ass handed to him, and Super Saiyan Gotenks couldn't even defeat Aka, whom Super Saiyan Goku defeated with one punch. Guess who's stronger than Super Saiyan Goku? Fat Boo.

Of course I don't really believe Gotenks is weaker than Fat Boo, I'm just using your logic here.

[Kaboom]

So... I guess that's a no, and there is no "Gotenks is stronger than Majin Boo" confirmation line. Not in the manga, not in the guidebooks, not anywhere. Which means, again, people can trust sources saying otherwise if they so choose, and craft their made-up numbers to reflect it.

Power levels aren't a damn debate contest. They're a form of fan-work, that's why they're in this section. You don't have to act like there's something to prove.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Like Kaioshin, someone stronger than Freeza, being "scared" of Pui Pui, when base Vegeta killed him, am I correct?

This actually is evidence supporting my argument, yes.

Let's hear a reason for Kaioshin not stepping in and finishing either Pui-Pui or Yakon if he was stronger. It doesn't matter if they don't have Ki to sense, fighters are judged by movement all of the time in DBZ.

That's not a feat.

Base Kids lasting in a restricting suit against 18 is.

Likewise, you could use the same logic here. Base Gotenks got his ass handed to him, and Super Saiyan Gotenks couldn't even defeat Aka, whom Super Saiyan Goku defeated with one punch. Guess who's stronger than Super Saiyan Goku? Fat Boo.

Base Gotenks got his ass handed to him by Fat Buu, how does that imply his SS form is weaker?

Gotenks didn't need Super Saiyan to beat Aka, he only transformed for kicks and giggles, that was obvious. Goku on the other hand needed Super Saiyan to beat Aka.

So... I guess that's a no, and there is no "Gotenks is stronger than Majin Boo" confirmation line. Not in the manga, not in the guidebooks, not anywhere. Which means, again, people can trust sources saying otherwise if they so choose, and craft their made-up numbers to reflect it.

Power levels aren't a damn debate contest. They're a form of fan-work, that's why they're in this section. You don't have to act like there's something to prove.

So... dismiss the link I showed you "just because", ignore Krillin saying fusion is what's strongest after sensing Gotenks' Ki, and avoid all four questions... Okay.

[Doctor.]

Let's hear a reason for Kaioshin not stepping in and finishing either Pui-Pui or Yakon if he was stronger. It doesn't matter if they don't have Ki to sense, fighters are judged by movement all of the time in DBZ.

How about Kaioshin being an idiot?

Which he is.

Base Kids lasting in a restricting suit against 18 is.

Oh, you mean like Piccolo "lasting" against 50% Freeza?

Base Gotenks got his ass handed to him by Fat Buu, how does that imply his SS form is weaker?

It doesn't and there's no concrete evidence that it was stronger.

Gotenks didn't need Super Saiyan to beat Aka

Aka surviving Gotenks' barrage with no damage disagrees.

Goku on the other hand needed Super Saiyan to beat Aka.

And this is what you assume with no basis.

[dbgtFO]

4. Why those lines are there if they're wrong? Is Toriyama trolling his readers or something? Does he have his characters say the opposite of what we're supposed to believe? Some writer he is, huh?

This can be used for absolutely everything.

Consider the Beerus statement about Goku being weaker than Freeza that you disagree with.

Because it's contradicted by feats.

Gotenks being weaker than Fat Buu is never contradicted, or even implied to be incorrect.

The 18 vs base kids scenario isn't that set in stone, given 18's demeanor after they transformed indicated, she hadn't cut Loose yet.
Still I think Toriyama has his favourites and always had to shove a Freeza reference in anywhere and that's why Billy boy is rambling about base Goku < Freeza.
The man just can't help himself and maybe he even thought that too back, when he was writing the manga.
We don't know and the manga obviously does not give us something clear-cut, so it is what is.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

How about Kaioshin being an idiot?

Which he is.

Care to explain how he's being an idiot? He's willing to fight against Yakon, but only teamed up. If he sees Yakon is around as strong Base Goku, he'd know he's stronger than Yakon since he can sense Base Goku.

Oh, you mean like Piccolo "lasting" against 50% Freeza?

No, I mean 18 not being able to overwhelm the kids.
It seems pretty clear what 18 does when her opponent is much weaker than her:

Spoiler:

It doesn't and there's no concrete evidence that it was stronger.

If it doesn't why did you just try to use it as evidence? There's no evidence Gotenks was weaker, every statement regarding his power by Goku was left uncontradicted, making them right by virtue of Occam's razor.

Aka surviving Gotenks' barrage with no damage disagrees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Gotenks not kick his ass, without transforming? It's clear Gotenks was messing around anyway, he even used most of the Z-fighter's signatures. Just because he didn't kill Aka with a single punch doesn't mean Gotenks can't beat him without transforming.

And this is what you assume with no basis.

So, what you're saying is, Goku just transformed for the lulz of it? Okay.

given 18's demeanor after they transformed indicated, she hadn't cut Loose yet.

She knew she could expose them with a kienzan, a move she would not use on a regular competitor.

[Kaboom]

So... dismiss the link I showed you "just because", ignore Krillin saying fusion is what's strongest after sensing Gotenks' Ki, and avoid all four questions... Okay.

A snarky "I'll just let this link to a definition of a certain piece of debate terminology explain why you're wrong" response is not worth addressing.

The point is that those things are all just predictions or expectations, and there is no actual proof that Gotenks ended up that strong. A guidebook strongly implies that he wasn't. People are free to believe it. Please don't give them a hard time about it.

[Doctor.]

Care to explain how he's being an idiot? He's willing to fight against Yakon, but only teamed up. If he sees Yakon is around as strong Base Goku, he'd know he's stronger than Yakon since he can sense Base Goku.

Gohan also wants to team up against Yakon, do you want to say Yakon is superior to SS2 Gohan? If not, then that line means absolutely nothing.

Kaioshin couldn't have managed to hold SS2 Gohan, distracted or not, if he was so weak.

No, I mean 18 not being able to overwhelm the kids.

Oh, I see. Then why did they go Super Saiyan?

If it doesn't why did you just try to use it as evidence? There's no evidence Gotenks was weaker, every statement regarding his power by Goku was left uncontradicted, making them right by virtue of Occam's razor.

Just because you think they're not contradicted, doesn't mean everyone thinks so.

And an example of that is our dear user Zombie.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Gotenks not kick his ass, without transforming?

And then he transformed to give the finishing blow.

Which failed.

I'm not seeing your point.

It's clear Gotenks was messing around anyway, he even used most of the Z-fighter's signatures. Just because he didn't kill Aka with a single punch doesn't mean Gotenks can't beat him without transforming.

He sure messed around when Aka's attack was about to kill everyone and he could barely deflect the blasts.

So, what you're saying is, Goku just transformed for the lulz of it? Okay.

Did he not do this to Tarble just 20 minutes back?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Gohan also wants to team up against Yakon, do you want to say Yakon is superior to SS2 Gohan? If not, then that line means absolutely nothing.

Gohan knew he couldn't use Super Saiyan because Yakon would "eat" it. What's stopping Kaioshin from stepping in and instantly ending the fight with Yakon if he has enough power to do so?

Kaioshin couldn't have managed to hold SS2 Gohan, distracted or not, if he was so weak.

So basically, a rule you just made up. Ok.

Oh, I see. Then why did they go Super Saiyan?

Because they couldn't overwhelm her either... do you not know what a stalemate is?

Just because you think they're not contradicted, doesn't mean everyone thinks so.

Do you not know what Occam's razor is?

And then he transformed to give the finishing blow.

Which failed.

I'm not seeing your point.

Point is, if Gotenks can already kick Aka's ass in base form, and his SS form doesn't get the job done, that's proof Gotenks is only messing around, because obviously a 50x+ gap is enough to easily finish someone with one blow.

Did he not do this to Tarble just 20 minutes back?

He was showing Tarble he was strong enough to beat Abo and Cado. I'm not seeing your point.

On topic of Base vs. Freeza... doesn't this special help me? Goku says Freeza level opponents are a good match for Goten and Trunks.

[dbgtFO]

given 18's demeanor after they transformed indicated, she hadn't cut Loose yet.

She knew she could expose them with a kienzan, a move she would not use on a regular competitor.

Well yeah, but she seems to not think of that until after they reveal their incredible power with that blast.
Given that she said she 'had to end the fight soon' after they fired that blast it seems like she had intended to fight them normally before getting so shocked.

[Doctor.]

Gohan knew he couldn't use Super Saiyan because Yakon would "eat" it. What's stopping Kaioshin from stepping in and instantly ending the fight with Yakon if he has enough power to do so?

Well evidently that didn't stop Goku, now did it?

Maybe the fact that the Saiyans wouldn't let him? It took him until Goku agreed to fight Vegeta for him to actually DO something.

So basically, a rule you just made up. Ok.

Did you not make a rule that, if Kaioshin was stronger than Yakon then he WOULD with 100% certainty step in? lol

Because they couldn't overwhelm her either... do you not know what a stalemate is?

#18 was dodging and blocking every blow of theirs. Base Goten and Trunks didn't get ONE clean hit on her. That was no stalemate.

Do you not know what Occam's razor is?

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

Point is, if Gotenks can already kick Aka's ass in base form, and his SS form doesn't get the job done, that's proof Gotenks is only messing around, because obviously a 50x+ gap is enough to easily finish someone with one blow.

Ok, I got nothing.

He was showing Tarble he was strong enough to beat Abo and Cado. I'm not seeing your point.

He was showing Tarble he was strong enough to beat two people as strong as Freeza by... turning Super Saiyan.

On topic of Base vs. Freeza... doesn't this special help me? Goku says Freeza level opponents are a good match for Goten and Trunks.

Only if you assume it's final form and if you assume it's Abo and Cado and not Aka.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well yeah, but she seems to not think of that until after they reveal their incredible power with that blast.
Given that she said she 'had to end the fight soon' after they fired that blast it seems like she had intended to fight them normally before getting so shocked.

That's not how I personally see it. I just see her confidence as her being able to use a Kienzan since they're not normal competitors. Besides, there's no explanation for her staying in a suppressed state

Well evidently that didn't stop Goku, now did it?

Just because Goku thought to overwhelm Yakon with SS2, doesn't mean Gohan's going to concoct the same plan... How would he know he'd be able to overwhelm Yakon? All he knows is that Yakon eats light energy.

Maybe the fact that the Saiyans wouldn't let him? It took him until Goku agreed to fight Vegeta for him to actually DO something.

And? They're not agreeing to team up with him. If Yakon was truly afraid of energy going to Majin Buu, he should've just ended the match before Goku got hurt. I mean it's not like the Saiyans are going to kill him for doing that..

Did you not make a rule that, if Kaioshin was stronger than Yakon then he WOULD with 100% certainty step in? lol

Because, Kaioshin's magic can be explained. Heck, if you go by the Daizenshuu it even says his magic is different than Chaozu's or something like that.

What's the explanation for Kaioshin not stepping in.

#18 was dodging and blocking every blow of theirs. Base Goten and Trunks didn't get ONE clean hit on her. That was no stalemate.

Ok? She landed only a single hit. They blocked every other hit from her also. Not even sure why I'm saying 'they', as Goten was purely dead weight.

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

Occam's razor dictates it takes more faith to assume a main character like Goku would lie or be wrong about pretty much anything as significant as this. When authors write a story they do not usually intend for the audience to be skeptical of statements that push the plot along.

When Goku said he could've actually beaten Fat Buu, no one ever doubts that, right? When Freeza says he destroyed Planet Vegeta, no one ever makes him "prove it." What's the difference here?

Only if you assume it's final form and if you assume it's Abo and Cado and not Aka.

The only form of Freeza knows at that point is Freeza's final form.

[Doctor.]

Just because Goku thought to overwhelm Yakon with SS2, doesn't mean Gohan's going to concoct the same plan... How would he know he'd be able to overwhelm Yakon? All he knows is that Yakon eats light energy.

How would Goku know? Both of them are fighting geniuses, you know.

And? They're not agreeing to team up with him. If Yakon was truly afraid of energy going to Majin Buu, he should've just ended the match before Goku got hurt. I mean it's not like the Saiyans are going to kill him for doing that..

What's the explanation for Kaioshin not stepping in.

I know this may seem surprising to you

But how about him not wanting to? Shocking, isn't it. I mean, why bother getting help if you're gonna do everything alone? Kaioshin knew SS was useless against Yakon and him, being stronger than base Saiyans, offered to fight as a team in order for the Saiyans not to get their asses whooped.

Ok? She landed only a single hit. They blocked every other hit from her also. Not even sure why I'm saying 'they', as Goten was purely dead weight.

In a super short fight, I'll take #18's performance which makes it clear she was stronger.

Occam's razor dictates it takes more faith to assume a main character like Goku would lie or be wrong about pretty much anything as significant as this. When authors write a story they do not usually intend for the audience to be skeptical of statements that push the plot along.

When Goku said he could've actually beaten Fat Buu, no one ever doubts that, right? When Freeza says he destroyed Planet Vegeta, no one ever makes him "prove it." What's the difference here?

And you've come back to square one. Again, when Beerus says "you're weaker than Freeza", nobody says "no! he's not!", do they?

You say it's wrong because, in your view, it was contradicted by other stuff. And I'm telling you that you're not right when it comes to Gotenks because in someone else's view, it's contradicted by other stuff.

The only form of Freeza knows at that point is Freeza's final form.

Yes, and he also knows Goten and Trunks have their Super Saiyan form.

Tarble, on the other hand, does NOT know about Freeza's final form. And even if he DID, he probably knew about Aka as well, and could be referring to that form instead.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

How would Goku know? Both of them are fighting geniuses, you know.

Goku came up with the idea on his own... that doesn't mean Gohan's going to concoct the same exact plan. Vegeta didn't even know what Goku's plan was initially, correct?

But how about him not wanting to? Shocking, isn't it. I mean, why bother getting help if you're gonna do everything alone? Kaioshin knew SS was useless against Yakon and him, being stronger than base Saiyans, offered to fight as a team in order for the Saiyans not to get their asses whooped.

That doesn't make sense. He doesn't want energy to go to Buu. Their main objective is to beat each fighter and then advance to the bottom of the ship without taking any damage and letting energy go to Buu. To do that, he'd need to defeat Yakon without Goku getting damaged. So why would he just stand there doing nothing if letting Goku stay there fighting alone is dangerous and exactly what Kaioshin doesn't want to happen?

In a super short fight, I'll take #18's performance which makes it clear she was stronger.

Her performance? You mean her not being able to knock the kids out of the ring (in a similar way she did to every other competitor) and landing a single hit? How does that show she's much stronger than them? In fact, she was advantaged (Trunks couldn't use his legs and Goten was doing nothing) and she still couldn't overwhelm them and knock them out of the ring without killing them.

And you've come back to square one. Again, when Beerus says "you're weaker than Freeza", nobody says "no! he's not!", do they?

You say it's wrong because, in your view, it was contradicted by other stuff. And I'm telling you that you're not right when it comes to Gotenks because in someone else's view, it's contradicted by other stuff.

We see two base saiyans hold up against someone stronger than Freeza. What evidence is there for Gotenks being weaker?

Yes, and he also knows Goten and Trunks have their Super Saiyan form.

Except Goten and Trunks being on Freeza's level as Super Saiyans is contradicted by Goten's sparring with Gohan, unless Gohan dropped to Freeza level. Besides, he lets the kids continue to walk off in base after he says Freeza level opponents are good for them. Why wouldn't he tell them to transform?

Tarble, on the other hand, does NOT know about Freeza's final form. And even if he DID, he probably knew about Aka as well, and could be referring to that form instead.

Was it ever actually stated he was aware of them fusing (Aka)? (I haven't seen the special in quite a while).

[xmysticgohanx]

the daizenshuu just says base gotenks pre < majin vegeta. the picture next to the entry is base gotenks after all. base saiyans > #18