Well, it seems as though Base Goku truly is far beyond SSJ3 tier. Hell, at stage I'd say his base form is beyond SSJG tier considering how he went after and fought Beerus, even after Beerus powered up.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Except we don't know how much power Beerus was holding back (and obviously he had to have been holding back), so there's still little evidence as to where base Goku stands.
It was a gag episode for crying out loud. Beerus didn't seem even remotely serious.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sat May 07, 2016 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marlowe89 wrote:Except we don't know how much power Beerus was holding back, so there's still no evidence either way as to where base Goku stands.
It was a gag episode for crying out loud.
But Bulma seemed in the verge of tears when Beerus and Goku were duking it out. And the other Z-Fighters seemed legitimately concerned that someone was gonna get hurt or killed. The line between "Played For Laughs" and "Played For Drama" has become very blurred in Super.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Man it's a good thing I stopped giving a shit about Super power levels. Was right to know that every week they'd make less and less sense over time.
More importantly I can't wait to see how Pan places. Obviously above Gohan, as the theories of his semen passing the Ultimate potential to her seem to be true. Of course she's nothing to Super Satan. Maybe on par with Piccolo to be a hassle for him during babysitting time.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Lord Beerus wrote:But Bulma seemed in the verge of tears when Beerus and Goku were duking it out. And the other Z-Fighters seemed legitimately concerned that someone was gonna get hurt or killed.
We could take those scenes completely seriously and I still don't think that's enough information to make a definite conclusion one way or the other. Ultimately, Beerus was pretending to be someone else.
I think a reasonable estimate is to put him somewhere above SS3 as usual.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:How strong does everyone believe all of Frost's forms compare to Z characters?
At the lowest, i put them at..
First Form = SS2 Vegeta [BoG] Assault Form = Mr.Buu Final Form = Super Buu
At best, i can see First Form Frost stomping Buuhan.
Cool. Even for low levels, they're not too low.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
This last episode was such a mess power-wise, clearly the writers don't care about details. Unless we are supposed to believe Chiaotzu just got insanely powerful.
Khin wrote:Or Goku was just suppressed/off guard when Chaozu stopped him, dude got taken out by a ray gun in RoF when the same thing happened.
He was fighting it off... Are we to assume Goku hold back when being held by an unknown force. Sure he didn't go SSJB, in the context he's clearly doing his best to escape.
This episode really isn't to be taken seriously for any power debates, well to me. Everyone is free to analyze it as they see fit.
I'm gonna stick to the manga for my power level sanity and enjoy the anime for what it is.
The "Super's power chain doesn't work" BS continues. There's nothing wrong with this at all.
If Tenshinhan can improve his Kikoho (Implied to be because of Kaiosama's training) to such magnitudes that it could hold off Cell for a short while then I have no problem believing Chaoz did the same with his psychic powers to the point of being be able to paralyze a Mr.Boo tier fighter for a couple of seconds.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Sun May 08, 2016 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
LightBing wrote:This last episode was such a mess power-wise, clearly the writers don't care about details. Unless we are supposed to believe Chiaotzu just got insanely powerful.
Oh...well can't argue with Bill Nye. Dude's mah childhood when it came to science.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
So having checked out Episode 42, without subs, my conclusions are thus:
Base Goku confirmed not to always walk around at full power, since Chaozu was able to stop him, which helps those who argue Freeza < base Goku.
If that is not the case, then Chaozu has powered up to ridiculous levels, if he can restrain Goku, when he couldn't even restrain Nappa and that was with a power gap of less than 10x!
Base Goku is shown fighting it out without the aura prevalent in his fight against Freeza, but then he powers up and has the white aura he had against Freeza, which provides further visual evidence, that there are two bases and the one used in the Champa arc was the normal, weaker one.
I don't think anything important was stated in the dialouge, but I'll have to wait and see.
Base Goku was still at least close to Assault Form Frost, since he made him bleed.
So? SSJ2 Vegeta made Beerus bleed in the movie and he wasn't close to him. In the manga he beat on him for a bit and then it turned out Beerus was unharmed. It's not all that different from that.
The fact that Piccolo is anywhere close to base Goku means that Goku doesn't have any SSG power, since Piccolo isn't anywhere close to SS3 to begin with, and base with SSG power, even in the anime, is stronger than SS3.
Well he isn't necessarily as strong as SSJG whether he'd absorbed the power or not. He isn't as strong as SSJG in Base in the Super anime so he likely isn't going to be in the Super manga either.
All we know is that he's stronger than he was before because he's stronger than Super Saiyan now.
Lord Beerus wrote:Well, it seems as though Base Goku truly is far beyond SSJ3 tier. Hell, at stage I'd say his base form is beyond SSJG tier considering how he went after and fought Beerus, even after Beerus powered up.
Well just going by the raw that I watched he definitely seems to be considerably above SSJ3 tier because he was getting punched about and he was still able to fight back where a simple flick and chop knocked him out before.
I wouldn't necessarily say he's SSJG level though because Beerus probably wasn't fighting at a high level of power and he was clearly having difficulty fighting in the suit.
At a guess I'd say he's on a similiar level to Angry SSJ2 Vegeta.
Lord Beerus wrote:Well, it seems as though Base Goku truly is far beyond SSJ3 tier. Hell, at stage I'd say his base form is beyond SSJG tier considering how he went after and fought Beerus, even after Beerus powered up.
Well just going by the raw that I watched he definitely seems to be considerably above SSJ3 tier because he was getting punched about and he was still able to fight back where a simple flick and chop knocked him out before.
I wouldn't necessarily say he's SSJG level though because Beerus probably wasn't fighting at a high level of power and he was clearly having difficulty fighting in the suit.
At a guess I'd say he's on a similiar level to Angry SSJ2 Vegeta.
Base Goku is far above Angry SS2 Vegeta given that Beerus visibly needed to power up against Goku but not against Vegeta.
===
Some really strong evidence in favor of the two base theory here. Goku seen powering up just like in RoF.
Bullza wrote:The white aura doesn't mean anything either.
The white aura, that was conspicuous by its absence in the Champa Arc, but was there in RoF Arc and now in Episode 42 does not mean anything, when past debates have shown failure to have auras and such are direct proof of one or other claims?
At least provide us with your reasoning.
