"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[namekiansaiyan]

I already mentioned it but I will repeat this.

Dont be surprised if the U6 Namekians turn out be disappointments like.

Ganos
Murichim
Nigrisshi
Kahseral

I kinda knew Rota was going to be fodder because his design screamed "filler in order to complete the U6 team".

The fact they used Piccolo to hype Tien says how Toei and Toriyama think of Piccolo.

I fail to understand how they hyped Tien up by using Piccolo when he was also protecting qho would have been done without him.

Those 4 characters you mentioned were all shown before the tournament and to be made out to be good.

If you are talking about designs then since Saonel and Pilina look like Piccolo and Lord slug then they will not be dissapointment like the fighters you mentioned.

Are you guys ready to flip off the show when Goku and Vegeta will be the ones who will fight the namekians?

Namakian fans would commit mass suicide.

Goku and Vegeta can fight the Namekians as long as they lose but there is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.

If those Namekians end up being as unimportant as Dr Rota I will be mad. I don't care about the Slug clone but the other guy better have an interesting fight with Piccolo at the very least.

The Universe 6 versions of Vegeta, Goku, Broly and Frieza are not 'unimportant' so why would there Piccolo and Lord Slug be.

Namekians are allowed to branch out. They can fight people outside of their race, if they so choose.

Yes they can for there introduction before facing Piccolo.

[Jigurashi]

I've come to the conclusion that Toei simply can't satisfy people with Vegetas character. First he was boring because he wasn't hot headed and now people are complaining about regression. Most likely different people , but there does seem to be a split in the fanbase.

I mean if they just wrote him to be how he was in GT then I'd have no problem with that. I don't care for GT for the most part, but I did like Vegeta's character in it.

[Chuquita]

I've come to the conclusion that Toei simply can't satisfy people with Vegetas character. First he was boring because he wasn't hot headed and now people are complaining about regression. Most likely different people , but there does seem to be a split in the fanbase.

I think it's different people and there is a split because I'm a fan of hot-headed Vegeta whereas stoic/domestic Vegeta is boring to me and I know I've seen people post in preference of the reverse.

Imo Vegeta's gotten better since the tournament began, but I still liked him better in the Uni 6 and Zamasu arcs. Uni Survival tournament proper feels like a more phoned in version of Vegeta from the earlier arcs.

For reference, Buu arc Vegeta's my favorite Vegeta.

[Bullza]

That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact his best win is on Goku.

That still doesn't change the fact Freeza beat and killed Vegeta. Vegeta got Goku's sloppy seconds and then even failed to take care of that. So Goku had to save him. Not sure why you've been trying to twist this to be a good moment for Vegeta. It's up there with one of the worst moments of him. The character wasn't treated well at all there. Literally the only bone he's given is beating up an already shot, fatigued and weary Freeza who can barely even put up a fight anymore cause Goku did the work of tiring him out. Even then, Vegeta fails to get the job done. Nothing in Z in his fights were as bad as that.

Black did. He straight up didn't even engage in fighting Goku or Vegeta anymore because they couldn't even take down the clones.

Universe 6 fighters were the strongest among their universe? Freeza's henchmen were pretty much the strongest dudes around back in the Freeza Saga, so I'm not sure why you're trying to devalue them. The fact is e ended up clobbering Zarbon who could transform, and clobbered Jeice too. Don't really see how those wins are less impressive than taking down other second tier fighters like Magetta, Frost (who also was already fatigued by the way), and Cabba.

Frieza never beat Vegeta, he just killed him for a couple minutes. Goku failed to care of Frieza just the same, Vegeta had to step in to save his life first actually after he was taken down by Sorbet of all people.

Black just left to go find Zamasu. It wasn't that they couldn't really handle the clones because they weren't using their full power up until they fought Merged Zamasu. In any case Vegeta was not treated any worse than Goku in that scene.

Frieza's henchmen were just that, strong underlings of which Vegeta didn't really perform all that well against them. He beat Cui who was in the series for a couple episodes and then beat Dodoria before Zarbon almost killed him, performed a cheap stunt on Zarbon again so he could beat him and then was petrified of the Ginyu Force, was almost beaten to death by Recoome, ran away from fighting Ginyu, beat Jeice, came across Frieza and was scared stiff for most of it and even tried to run away like a coward, finally gets the confidence to fight Frieza and he's literally beaten to death and tears.

Then in the Android saga, he kills Android 19, is then humiliated by Android 18, he goes and trains and then comes back to fight Cell, beats him for a little while but he then transforms and knocks Vegeta unconscious, at the Cell Games he sits on the sidelines, the little cute Cell Jr gives him tremendous trouble, attacks Cell and does nothing and again ends up crying about it.

In the Buu saga because he's too weak himself he has to given power from someone else and even then he can't beat Goku, fights Buu and ends up dying, comes back and fights Buu again and is beaten around like a toy and almost dies again.

From when he beat Android 19 to the end of the series, Vegeta's most notable victory, a proper victory, was against Pui Pui of all characters, someone who isn't even second tier. He's had it better in these 16 minutes of the Tournament of Power than he did throughout the entire second half of Z.

[perucho1990]

I fail to understand how they hyped Tien up by using Piccolo when he was also protecting qho would have been done without him.

Those 4 characters you mentioned were all shown before the tournament and to be made out to be good.

If you are talking about designs then since Saonel and Pilina look like Piccolo and Lord slug then they will not be dissapointment like the fighters you mentioned.

Are you guys ready to flip off the show when Goku and Vegeta will be the ones who will fight the namekians?

Namakian fans would commit mass suicide.

Goku and Vegeta can fight the Namekians as long as they lose but there is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.

If those Namekians end up being as unimportant as Dr Rota I will be mad. I don't care about the Slug clone but the other guy better have an interesting fight with Piccolo at the very least.

The Universe 6 versions of Vegeta, Goku, Broly and Frieza are not 'unimportant' so why would there Piccolo and Lord Slug be.

Namekians are allowed to branch out. They can fight people outside of their race, if they so choose.

Yes they can for there introduction before facing Piccolo.

Tien clones had no dmg after Hermilas shot them while Piccolo was agonizing in pain.

Goku and Vegeta losing to the namekian? Impossible, I bet it will be Goku and Piccolo teaming up, as a homage to Early DBZ.

Kale and Caulifla important because Toei wants to pander to the female fans/"waifu" fans, while Frost could turn out to be a good antagonist instead of just being a Frieza clone.

[namekiansaiyan]

I fail to understand how they hyped Tien up by using Piccolo when he was also protecting qho would have been done without him.

Those 4 characters you mentioned were all shown before the tournament and to be made out to be good.

If you are talking about designs then since Saonel and Pilina look like Piccolo and Lord slug then they will not be dissapointment like the fighters you mentioned.

Namakian fans would commit mass suicide.

Goku and Vegeta can fight the Namekians as long as they lose but there is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.

If those Namekians end up being as unimportant as Dr Rota I will be mad. I don't care about the Slug clone but the other guy better have an interesting fight with Piccolo at the very least.

The Universe 6 versions of Vegeta, Goku, Broly and Frieza are not 'unimportant' so why would there Piccolo and Lord Slug be.

Namekians are allowed to branch out. They can fight people outside of their race, if they so choose.

Yes they can for there introduction before facing Piccolo.

Tien clones had no dmg after Hermilas shot them while Piccolo was agonizing in pain.

Goku and Vegeta losing to the namekian? Impossible, I bet it will be Goku and Piccolo teaming up, as a homage to Early DBZ.

Kale and Caulifla important because Toei wants to pander to the female fans/"waifu" fans, while Frost could turn out to be a good antagonist instead of just being a Frieza clone.

Toei can't change Toriyama's script. Why wouldn't Toei want more Namekians?

I am just just saying that becuase they have a resemblance to other characters that is a good reason to believe they will be decent. They come as a 2 and we know Toriyama likes that a lot.

I would take Goku and Piccolo vs the Namekians if it means no Gohan involved.

Everything about the Namekians so far and the way that Toei are handling them would indicate they will be doing something important.

[perucho1990]

Toei can't change Toriyama's script. Why wouldn't Toei want more Namekians?

I am just just saying that becuase they have a resemblance to other characters that is a good reason to believe they will be decent. They come as a 2 and we know Toriyama likes that a lot.

I would take Goku and Piccolo vs the Namekians if it means no Gohan involved.

Everything about the Namekians so far and the way that Toei are handling them would indicate they will be doing something important.

Debatable imo.

In the anime they had Trunks use Mafuba instead of Goku and overall Goku got relegated to Manga Trunks level of relevance in the anime when Trunks fought Merged Zamasu and chopped him in 2.

I also would like the Namekians to do something useful instead of being tossed aside like trash, but I'm prepared in case they get trolled. Look at how Cabba has been treated, aside from eliminating 2 scrubs he hasnt done much, his fight vs Vegeta was completely offscreen.

[Cetra]

Toei can't change Toriyama's script.

Toei is the one with the script. Toriyama-san writes a barebones draft which means they do not really need to change anything because they write the most out of those bullet points in the first place. They can shape that easily without needing to change it because there are "just" key elements and moments in the first place. No disrespect to Toriyama-san's work.

[Hawk9211]

I am keeping my expectations fairly low.With toei,it's hit or miss.So,I expect namekians to be over the top or well we have already seen nigrisshi and narirama.

[Jigurashi]

That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact his best win is on Goku.

That still doesn't change the fact Freeza beat and killed Vegeta. Vegeta got Goku's sloppy seconds and then even failed to take care of that. So Goku had to save him. Not sure why you've been trying to twist this to be a good moment for Vegeta. It's up there with one of the worst moments of him. The character wasn't treated well at all there. Literally the only bone he's given is beating up an already shot, fatigued and weary Freeza who can barely even put up a fight anymore cause Goku did the work of tiring him out. Even then, Vegeta fails to get the job done. Nothing in Z in his fights were as bad as that.

Black did. He straight up didn't even engage in fighting Goku or Vegeta anymore because they couldn't even take down the clones.

Universe 6 fighters were the strongest among their universe? Freeza's henchmen were pretty much the strongest dudes around back in the Freeza Saga, so I'm not sure why you're trying to devalue them. The fact is e ended up clobbering Zarbon who could transform, and clobbered Jeice too. Don't really see how those wins are less impressive than taking down other second tier fighters like Magetta, Frost (who also was already fatigued by the way), and Cabba.

Frieza never beat Vegeta, he just killed him for a couple minutes. Goku failed to care of Frieza just the same, Vegeta had to step in to save his life first actually after he was taken down by Sorbet of all people.

Black just left to go find Zamasu. It wasn't that they couldn't really handle the clones because they weren't using their full power up until they fought Merged Zamasu. In any case Vegeta was not treated any worse than Goku in that scene.

Frieza's henchmen were just that, strong underlings of which Vegeta didn't really perform all that well against them. He beat Cui who was in the series for a couple episodes and then beat Dodoria before Zarbon almost killed him, performed a cheap stunt on Zarbon again so he could beat him and then was petrified of the Ginyu Force, was almost beaten to death by Recoome, ran away from fighting Ginyu, beat Jeice, came across Frieza and was scared stiff for most of it and even tried to run away like a coward, finally gets the confidence to fight Frieza and he's literally beaten to death and tears.

Then in the Android saga, he kills Android 19, is then humiliated by Android 18, he goes and trains and then comes back to fight Cell, beats him for a little while but he then transforms and knocks Vegeta unconscious, at the Cell Games he sits on the sidelines, the little cute Cell Jr gives him tremendous trouble, attacks Cell and does nothing and again ends up crying about it.

In the Buu saga because he's too weak himself he has to given power from someone else and even then he can't beat Goku, fights Buu and ends up dying, comes back and fights Buu again and is beaten around like a toy and almost dies again.

From when he beat Android 19 to the end of the series, Vegeta's most notable victory, a proper victory, was against Pui Pui of all characters, someone who isn't even second tier. He's had it better in these 16 minutes of the Tournament of Power than he did throughout the entire second half of Z.

Freeza killed Vegeta and won the fight. That's a win. Vegeta lost. Not sure why you're bringing Goku up when this is about Vegeta. I never claimed Goku beat Freeza either. That's also nice, except it doesn't change the fact that Sorbet had to interfere in that fight while Freeza himself took Vegeta out.

Then you have to prove they weren't using their full power. Black wasn't being pressured at all by them. They couldn't do away with his clones and that's how their fight with Black ended before he fused. Freeza's henchmen were the strongest fighters in the universe at the time of the Freeza Saga next to Freeza himself, so no, you honestly have to stop with the devaluing of them. He shitted on Dodoria and Cui. Beat Zarbon in a rematch. You can mention him fighting dirty, it doesn't change the fact he beat him. He also beat Jeice. All second tier fighters the same as the U6 fighters, one of which already fought Goku and Piccolo and already exhausted himself. But you're trying to claim that those victories are better than his wins on Namek? That makes no sense.

He beat Goku in his first fight, a better win than anything he gets in Super or Z. His wins on Namek are about as good as his wins in the U6 tournament but you want to pretend like they're not and act like the quality of opponents he beat there are better than the ones he beat on Namek at the time of the Freeza Saga. Outside of both the U6 tournament and Namek, Vegeta's continues to rack up wins on second tier fighters. Him beating up Black (who wasn't even the main villain of the saga as that title goes to M-Zamasu) isn't any better than beating up Semi-Perfect Cell, who also was even the final villain either. In both of those sagas, Vegeta ends up getting his own performance shitted on in the end and having to watch other dudes outperform him. Not sure why you seem to think he gets treated any differently in Super when he really doesn't.

I fail to understand how they hyped Tien up by using Piccolo when he was also protecting qho would have been done without him.

Those 4 characters you mentioned were all shown before the tournament and to be made out to be good.

If you are talking about designs then since Saonel and Pilina look like Piccolo and Lord slug then they will not be dissapointment like the fighters you mentioned.



Goku and Vegeta can fight the Namekians as long as they lose but there is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.



The Universe 6 versions of Vegeta, Goku, Broly and Frieza are not 'unimportant' so why would there Piccolo and Lord Slug be.



Yes they can for there introduction before facing Piccolo.

Tien clones had no dmg after Hermilas shot them while Piccolo was agonizing in pain.

Goku and Vegeta losing to the namekian? Impossible, I bet it will be Goku and Piccolo teaming up, as a homage to Early DBZ.

Kale and Caulifla important because Toei wants to pander to the female fans/"waifu" fans, while Frost could turn out to be a good antagonist instead of just being a Frieza clone.

Toei can't change Toriyama's script. Why wouldn't Toei want more Namekians?

I am just just saying that becuase they have a resemblance to other characters that is a good reason to believe they will be decent. They come as a 2 and we know Toriyama likes that a lot.

I would take Goku and Piccolo vs the Namekians if it means no Gohan involved.

Everything about the Namekians so far and the way that Toei are handling them would indicate they will be doing something important.

As for the bold: if Piccolo had to team up, I too would prefer Goku or really anyone to Gohan. Gohan and Piccolo being with each other is bad news. As for the other part, eh. I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. You're clearly being optimistic, and you have every right to be. With that said, I won't at all be surprised if the Namekians didn't end up being as significant as you are hoping they'll be.

Toei can't change Toriyama's script. Why wouldn't Toei want more Namekians?

I am just just saying that becuase they have a resemblance to other characters that is a good reason to believe they will be decent. They come as a 2 and we know Toriyama likes that a lot.

I would take Goku and Piccolo vs the Namekians if it means no Gohan involved.

Everything about the Namekians so far and the way that Toei are handling them would indicate they will be doing something important.

Debatable imo.

In the anime they had Trunks use Mafuba instead of Goku and overall Goku got relegated to Manga Trunks level of relevance in the anime when Trunks fought Merged Zamasu and chopped him in 2.

I also would like the Namekians to do something useful instead of being tossed aside like trash, but I'm prepared in case they get trolled. Look at how Cabba has been treated, aside from eliminating 2 scrubs he hasnt done much, his fight vs Vegeta was completely offscreen.

Literally what? No he didn't.

[Michsi]

I am literally face palming, are people really that desperate they literally are clinging onto anything for "hints". Like Jeez come on people! Just enjoy the damn show, why do you need so much information, just chill and watch the damn show, stop playing detective it is ridiculous, most of the time it leads to people building self expectations for things that don't exist. These Namekians, may have a good showing or may have a bad showing but we'll find out when we find out but to bring a magnifying glass like Sherlock Holmes and be like "well in this shot they were blurred out by Hit therefore they are gonna have a great showing".

Like how much better was it this week, watching the NEP not knowing what the hell the next episode was about?

Narrative techniques like obscuring and late reveals can be seen as hints. Now what it hints as is anybody's guess. This is what such discussions are for. I agree that speculation heightens expectation and it's quite possible the story will be underwhelming. The less you want and hope for something, the less you will feel disappointed when it doesn't deliver.

If anything it can be fun to see what people think before and after a certain episode. Or aggravating, depending on the episode.

But darn it, I want Piccolo to have a real good fight, and those namekians to be memorable.

[sintzu]

There is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.

That's something Piccolo really needs at this point.

Toei can't change Toriyama's script.

Look at how different Toei's version of the Black are is form Toyotarou's. The current arc in the manga started with Vegeta and Beerus fighting so it's clear that Toriyama's scripts are VERY vague.

[namekiansaiyan]

Toei can't change Toriyama's script.

Toei is the one with the script. Toriyama-san writes a barebones draft which means they do not really need to change anything because they write the most out of those bullet points in the first place. They can shape that easily without needing to change it because there are "just" key elements and moments in the first place. No disrespect to Toriyama-san's work.

If Toriyama says the Namekians are however strong then Toei will not change that is what I am saying.

There is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.

That's something Piccolo really needs at this point.

Toei can't change Toriyama's script.

Look at how different Toei's version of the Black are is form Toyotarou's. The current arc in the manga started with Vegeta and Beerus fighting so it's clear that Toriyama's scripts are VERY vague.

Beerus facing Vegeta does not change the plot as it is essentially filler. I am talking about how good the Namekians will be and both Manga and anime will follow whatever Toriyama says.

[Jigurashi]

Toei can't change Toriyama's script.

Toei is the one with the script. Toriyama-san writes a barebones draft which means they do not really need to change anything because they write the most out of those bullet points in the first place. They can shape that easily without needing to change it because there are "just" key elements and moments in the first place. No disrespect to Toriyama-san's work.

If Toriyama says the Namekians are however strong then Toei will not change that is what I am saying.

There is no logical way they were designed to not interact with Piccolo.

That's something Piccolo really needs at this point.

Toei can't change Toriyama's script.

Look at how different Toei's version of the Black are is form Toyotarou's. The current arc in the manga started with Vegeta and Beerus fighting so it's clear that Toriyama's scripts are VERY vague.

Beerus facing Vegeta does not change the plot as it is essentially filler. I am talking about how good the Namekians will be and both Manga and anime will follow whatever Toriyama says.

I'd say that's true to an extent. AT left Toyo and Toei up to making Hitto as strong and impressive as they wanted him to be. Hitto wrecked Vegeta in both versions but only in the anime version was that impressive. So while AT can choose how good some of these fighters are, it also isn't out of the realm of possibility for him to leave it up to Toei and Toyo to have their own interpretations of the characters.

[supercat]

What these Namekian fans probably don't realize is the fact that the new Namekians would have so much of a better showcasing facing off against powerhouses like Goku, Vegeta, or even Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan (all fighters who are presumably SSB-tier), versus some weakling nobody like Piccolo. From a power standpoint, even if these Namekians barely win against Piccolo, at best that would likely put them only slightly above Buuhan and possibly SSJ Vegetto, both of whom are presumably fodders by Super standards.

Seriously though, those Namekians are far better off facing off against one of the SSB-tier fighters mentioned above (Goku, Vegeta, Android 17 and Gohan). Since Piccolo is now worlds below Android 17, maybe one of these new Namekians could take his place and give Android 17 the Namekian vs Android rematch so many fans have been waiting for. I doubt there's much going for Piccolo other than going down for Gohan, something that many fans have already speculated.

[sintzu]

I am talking about how good the Namekians will be and both Manga and anime will follow whatever Toriyama says.

Look at Future Trunks, in the anime he was very overpowered and involved with everything while in the manga he took a back seat to most of the events.

[namekiansaiyan]

What these Namekian fans probably don't realize is the fact that the new Namekians would have so much of a better showcasing facing off against powerhouses like Goku, Vegeta, or even Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan (all fighters who are presumably SSB-tier), versus some weakling nobody like Piccolo. From a power standpoint, even if these Namekians barely win against Piccolo, at best that would likely put them only slightly above Buuhan and possibly SSJ Vegetto, both of whom are presumably fodders by Super standards.

Seriously though, those Namekians are far better off facing off against one of the SSB-tier fighters mentioned above (Goku, Vegeta, Android 17 and Gohan). Since Piccolo is now worlds below Android 17, maybe one of these new Namekians could take his place and give Android 17 the Namekian vs Android rematch so many fans have been waiting for. I doubt there's much going for Piccolo other than going down for Gohan, something that many fans have already speculated.

We want them to be as strong as Goku so Piccolo can get a lot stronger and maybe just like how Cabba was taught by Vegeta they could teach Piccolo as well.

I have also speculated that 17 could lose to the Piccolo lookalike to show that Piccolo would have won there fight.

Do not put 17 and Gohan at Goku's and Vegeta's level since they are nowhere near them.

You call Piccolo a weakling nobody but he saved Gohan's butt and if he didn't Gohan would have been finished.

If Piccolo was here just to go down for Gohan then why would Toei have him do it already in episode 106 since it would ruin it later unless you think he is going to end up doing it twice.

I am talking about how good the Namekians will be and both Manga and anime will follow whatever Toriyama says.

Look at Future Trunks, in the anime he was very overpowered and involved with everything while in the manga he took a back seat to most of the events.

If Toei can change things then they won't waste an opportunity to have 2 Namekians be good at fighting.

[sintzu]

If Toei can change things then they won't waste an opportunity to have 2 Namekians be good at fighting.

They haven't showed anything from them so I think (and hope) it's because they're saving them for later but on the other hand, it seems like the torunament is coming to an end so they and everyone else we haven't seen could end up out the ring by Jerin as a way to show how strong he is and how "great" Goku is for stopping him (which is something they've been doing since Champa's arc).

[Jigurashi]

What these Namekian fans probably don't realize is the fact that the new Namekians would have so much of a better showcasing facing off against powerhouses like Goku, Vegeta, or even Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan (all fighters who are presumably SSB-tier), versus some weakling nobody like Piccolo. From a power standpoint, even if these Namekians barely win against Piccolo, at best that would likely put them only slightly above Buuhan and possibly SSJ Vegetto, both of whom are presumably fodders by Super standards.

Seriously though, those Namekians are far better off facing off against one of the SSB-tier fighters mentioned above (Goku, Vegeta, Android 17 and Gohan). Since Piccolo is now worlds below Android 17, maybe one of these new Namekians could take his place and give Android 17 the Namekian vs Android rematch so many fans have been waiting for. I doubt there's much going for Piccolo other than going down for Gohan, something that many fans have already speculated.

We want them to be as strong as Goku so Piccolo can get a lot stronger and maybe just like how Cabba was taught by Vegeta they could teach Piccolo as well.

I have also speculated that 17 could lose to the Piccolo lookalike to show that Piccolo would have won there fight.

Do not put 17 and Gohan at Goku's and Vegeta's level since they are nowhere near them.

You call Piccolo a weakling nobody but he saved Gohan's butt and if he didn't Gohan would have been finished.

If Piccolo was here just to go down for Gohan then why would Toei have him do it already in episode 106 since it would ruin it later unless you think he is going to end up doing it twice.

I am talking about how good the Namekians will be and both Manga and anime will follow whatever Toriyama says.

Look at Future Trunks, in the anime he was very overpowered and involved with everything while in the manga he took a back seat to most of the events.

If Toei can change things then they won't waste an opportunity to have 2 Namekians be good at fighting.

Problem is if they're as strong as Goku then Piccolo is going to get dumpstered by them.

[Michsi]

Problem is if they're as strong as Goku then Piccolo is going to get dumpstered by them.

I could live with that provided it means Piccolo will get something out of it power-wise later. Like namekiansaiyan already mentioned, it could be the inversio of the Vegeta/Cabba situation. The same way how it was U7 saiyans that brought the transformation to U6 saiyans, it could be U6 namekians that teach Piccolo something. The only thing that goes against this idea is that Champa and Vados didn't consider namekians for the previous tournament, but hey, there are ways to write around that.