Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Blackstripe]

Where would you seriously place Baby Pan's power level? At this point, I'm starting to think she legit kicked Goten's ass at the tournament, lol.

[ZombieVito]

So yeah, Goku can't defeat Piccolo as he is in the episode. Wouldn't this confirm that base Goku isn't that many times stronger?

Base Goku being Mr. Boo tier makes more and more sense to me.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku can't even fly properly in the recent episode. There is no indication that in normal conditions Base Goku can't defeat Piccolo.

[dbzfan7]

We'll get to see how bad off Goku is next week probably. Perhaps people with blasters can now give him problems in his weakened state. Though is it me, or did it look like Goku was fighting for Goten and Trunks? That's not the case was it?

[namekiansaiyan]

So yeah, Goku can't defeat Piccolo as he is in the episode. Wouldn't this confirm that base Goku isn't that many times stronger?

Base Goku being Mr. Boo tier makes more and more sense to me.

But does Goku mean he cant beat Piccolo in base, Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Blue after Ki troubles.

[ssbgoku]

Dbs tier:

vados/whis
beerus/champa
ssb goku/vegeta
hit
golden frieeza
ssg goku
ssj vegito
ssj goku/vegeta/enraged ssj2 vegeta - above buuhan/basse vegito but below ssj vegito
Magenta - ultimate gohan
ssj cabba - ssj3 gotenks
Final form frost - super buu
base goku/vegeta - ssj2 gotenks
Final form frieeza/ssj gohan - ssj gotenks/bog ssj3 goku
Assault form Frost/Picoolo - kid buu
First form Frost/base cabba - Mr.buu
First Form Frieeza - majin ssj2 vegeta
Picoolo
base gohan

Also I believes hit wasn't as strong as kaioken ssb goku. What I actually believes with some hints is that hit used only weakness kaioken gives which is decreasing body endurance and using time stkip technique hit goku so many times that he gave up for a bit and lost kaioken. The one punch of kaioken ssb goku put hit on ground. Also another stuff is that Goku only used kaioken x 10 in kamehameha wave and try to hit Hit and later he was only using regular kaioken. It is just same as goku vs frieeza on namek when it wasn't shown that goku was using kaioken x10 until it was mentioned. I just believe DBS power was retcon so nothing should be taken as granted unless it is still shown the same.

Also about goku absorbing god essence, well it can be explained like that: ssg goku->base goku + fading away ssg essence -> ssj goku + burning ssg essence -> base goku barerly able to fight + ssg essence. Later Whis comparing goku and vegeta to beerus by castle tree comparision, well it all makes sense even whi'ss comment that they vastly improved well base Saiyan jumping from namek frieeza arc to ssj3 goku which is x400 stronger is enough to be considered huge boost. In other words I just believe god essence allowed base goku and vegeta for ridiculous jump to ssj3 tier in base but only fully was used when used as ssb.

Why is Vegeta equal to Goku and above Hit? Him and goku arent joined at the hips. Hit was clearly above him and made him look like a fool. Even with knowledge Vegeta would still get owned.

I also disagree about Hit being weaker than goku. Current Hit who continued to improve is above Goku, regardless of how he does it. His timeskip improved to the point where it could stop kaioken blue goku and for a great amount of time. What was it 5 seconds? Give Hit 5 seconds on Goku able to kill and Goku, if he manages to live, would walk away in pretty f#cked up condition. We also have yet to see Hits limits or how he would keep improving.

Well It is just same example as from gt where nova shenron was figting ssj4 goku. The first one was faster while later was more powerfull... However hit has even more hax to help him and he isn;t slow by any means so yeah I can see Hit using kaioken's weakness and edge on speed to crush goku before he can attack. I disagree with Vegeta being owned if he can keep up with hit's speed, but sadly he can not.

In short, blast would be death sentence for Hit while hand to hand combat is killer for enemy.

So yeah, Goku can't defeat Piccolo as he is in the episode. Wouldn't this confirm that base Goku isn't that many times stronger?

Base Goku being Mr. Boo tier makes more and more sense to me.

But does Goku mean he cant beat Piccolo in base, Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Blue after Ki troubles.

Yeah ZombieVito I am glad I am not only one to notice it. At the most base goku is bog ssj3 tier...

namekiansayian, well it either means goku would loose to picoolo in just base or he would loose in generally as further transformations couldn't be possible at all. All points to just base goku being incapable of beating picoolo in his ki messed up state.

[Bullza]

How are people judging Base Goku's full strength from that line? He was weakened so much he couldn't even fly so makes sense he couldn't beat Piccolo. That doesn't mean at full strength he's as strong as Buu or SSJ3 or the like.

Oh and also Pan had the same white aura as Goku and Vegeta, so hopefully people give us on the idea that white aura = God level.

[ssbgoku]

How are people judging Base Goku's full strength from that line? He was weakened so much he couldn't even fly so makes sense he couldn't beat Piccolo. That doesn't mean at full strength he's as strong as Buu or SSJ3 or the like.

Oh and also Pan had the same white aura as Goku and Vegeta, so hopefully people give us on the idea that white aura = God level.

Well in my case definietly I believe base goku isn't such deal and also "crazy strong" majin buu line and last goku being ssj3 tier in eoz

[Bullza]

He's gotta be stronger than SSJ3 level or he'd never have been able to do so well against Beerus.

A flick and a chop took SSJ3 Goku out and a poke to the head took SSJ2 Vegeta out. Base Goku has taken better attacks, proper blasts and punches and still been conscious.

[ssbgoku]

He's gotta be stronger than SSJ3 level or he'd never have been able to do so well against Beerus.

A flick and a chop took SSJ3 Goku out and a poke to the head took SSJ2 Vegeta out. Base Goku has taken better attacks, proper blasts and punches and still been conscious.

It could be case if beerus was not known for lying many times and also if super anime was any sort of serious. I mean since universe 6 super anime seems to be just pure fanservice or at least it has to play important role in it. I just guess beerus powering up and goku keeping up with him is only due to what plot demands. It is also for better advertising and hyping up dragon ball super goku and beerus duel ;P.

I just believe while we reach eoz base goku at the best will be ultimate gohan level from buu arc. Also keep in mind back then beerus expected big challenge and he may be at bigger power level then against base goku and still seems to enjoy it, why ?. Just due to not fighting for short time but it is not due to sleeping for long and wake up only to have duel with very strong dreamed warrior.

[Noah]

Do you guys think it is possible that Pan has potential to reach the God-tier?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well we'd obviously have to go with the anime before the movie being as the arc in question is apart of the anime. If Base Goku is 1/50th as strong as SSJG then he isn't close to the level of Gods, that would be even more true for Third Form Frost and Piccolo as well if they were weaker still. So none of them are close to the level of Gods.

But Piccolo isn't merely 1/50th of Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God is far above SS3 Vegetto, who is 400 times stronger than base Vegetto, who is stronger than U. Gohan, who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is far stronger than SS3 Goku, who is 4 times stronger than SS2 Goku, who is 2 times stronger than SS Goku, who is stronger than Piccolo... Even if Goku was holding back against 3rd Form Frost, he wasn't using 1-10% of his power like Beerus did in his fights before SSG Goku, otherwise 3rd Form Frost wouldn't have been the one who finally caught his attention. Piccolo asked Frost if he could revert back to his previous form, meaning that at least against 3rd Form Frost he stands a chance, and he also managed to cause trouble against a tired Final Form Frost. If base Goku is 1/50th of SSG (like in the movies), he would have to use much less than 0.1% of his power for 3rd Form Frost to overpower him, and even less if he is as strong as SSG (like in the movies)

By all accounts if Piccolo stood no chance against Frieza in his first form then he should have no business standing up to any form of Frost but he does.

Meaning that Forst is much weaker than Freeza, which is why Goku tells him to train like Freeza did.

Because that wouldn't make any sense. They skipped the RoF arc but of course they're going to assume that the readers know what happened during the RoF story.

If readers have a recollection of what happened between events then there's not going to be a radically different and unseen version of the RoF story in the Super manga continuity, it would just be the same story that people know of.

We have no idea what happened between BoG arc & U6 arc of the manga, other than that Goku & Vegeta started training with Whis and achieved SSB, and that SSB Goku & Vegeta defeated Golden Freeza. Anything more than that is assumptions, not facts. Who knows, maybe base Goku never fought Final Form Freeza in this continuity, and the fight started with SSB Goku vs Golden Freeza right away.

If it turns out later that Goku has 2 base forms, then the movies will fit in the manga continuity. But at this moment, they don't.

Well they never said he was as strong as SSJG in the RoF manga, there was just an image of it in the background which may or may not imply they are the same in strenght.

What else could it imply?

There's no one answer, there's no real consistency at all. Some things point to Base being as strong as SSJG and then some things say otherwise.

In the movies/FnF manga, it's been made clear that base Goku is as strong as SSG. In the Super manga, it's been made clear than base Goku is on regular levels & nowhere near SSG. And in the anime, we know for sure that base Goku falls between SS3 & SSG.

[amuroray]

Why do you guys try to make sense of power levels? None of this makes any sense its clear the writers dont give a fuck.

Supers power levels have been all over the place to the point that trying to figure it out is madness.

[pacz360]

TBH I'm starting to feel like the power scaling isn't all that messed up in super it just most people here making it so complicated than already is.

[Bullza]

But Piccolo isn't merely 1/50th of Super Saiyan God.

I know, that'd be Base Goku and Piccolo isn't as strong as Base Goku.

Super Saiyan God is far above SS3 Vegetto, who is 400 times stronger than base Vegetto, who is stronger than U. Gohan

We don't know how much stronger SSJG Goku is than SSJ3 Vegito. Being as the character was never in the series for all we know they may have only been referring to SSJ1 Vegito. We also don't know if Base Vegito is stronger than Gohan.

Meaning that Forst is much weaker than Freeza, which is why Goku tells him to train like Freeza did.

Except he isn't otherwise Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have transformed into a Super Saiyan in order to stay above him. Against Frieza their Base form was enough to stay ahead of him.

SSJ Goku > Final Form Frost > Base Goku > Final Form Frieza

We have no idea what happened between BoG arc & U6 arc of the manga

We know exactly what happened because the intention is obviously that what happened in between is the story that the audience has seen and is familiar with and not a completely different version altogether.

What else could it imply?

Same thing as whatever the Oozaru appearing behind Goku in the Piccolo fight implied.

In the Super manga, it's been made clear than base Goku is on regular levels

No they haven't, they've never once even implied that let alone made it clear.

In the BoG movie Base is roughly as strong as SSJG. Being that RoF is supposed to be a direct continuation then the same is probably also true.

In Super it is not as clear but yes he's apparently somewhere between SSJ3 and SSJG. Being that the manga is based off of the same plot outline written by Toriyama then the same is almost certainly true for the manga aswell.

[pacz360]

He's gotta be stronger than SSJ3 level or he'd never have been able to do so well against Beerus.

A flick and a chop took SSJ3 Goku out and a poke to the head took SSJ2 Vegeta out. Base Goku has taken better attacks, proper blasts and punches and still been conscious.

Exactly whis had to stop beerus and base goku from fighting last episode whis didn't even have to bother doing that with beerus during his fight with goku on kaio planet.

[Neon Z]

In the movies/FnF manga, it's been made clear that base Goku is as strong as SSG. In the Super manga, it's been made clear than base Goku is on regular levels & nowhere near SSG. And in the anime, we know for sure that base Goku falls between SS3 & SSG.

Huh? I'm not following that. The Super manga making Goku fight in SSJ God all the time, and afterwards skipping RoF basically excludes all battles where Base Goku was facing an opponent with known strength, eliminates all scenes that showcase the base form's power up, but I don't get how that proves that it's on "regular levels". It just didn't make the power up clear.

Don't forget that the manga includes a scene where SSJB Vegeta attacks Goku in base, which should be a one hit KO if he really hadn't gotten his base boosted in the manga. Rather than that, although he complains about it hurting, he just stands up and power ups, seemingly without any real wounds from the attack. It's not much, but I'd take that over the idea that the manga would be changing a plot element that has been fairly consistent between movies and tv show.

[namekiansaiyan]

TBH I'm starting to feel like the power scaling isn't all that messed up in super it just most people here making it so complicated than already is.

I have been saying this for a long time on here, the 2 base theory was the biggest problem for most people.

[ssbgoku]

He's gotta be stronger than SSJ3 level or he'd never have been able to do so well against Beerus.

A flick and a chop took SSJ3 Goku out and a poke to the head took SSJ2 Vegeta out. Base Goku has taken better attacks, proper blasts and punches and still been conscious.

Exactly whis had to stop beerus and base goku from fighting last episode whis didn't even have to bother doing that with beerus during his fight with goku on kaio planet.

Again means nothing as the context of situation is important here ie. Bulma and everyone else explained concern about safety of earth + whis being already fond of our z cast and back then whis wasn't any familliar with them and also noone was concerned about King Kai's planet safety, as beerus was not hitting, just blocking. Also super is known for hyping up characters to increase number of display on the screen. I already explained why it can not be taken as fact or feat

Well we'd obviously have to go with the anime before the movie being as the arc in question is apart of the anime. If Base Goku is 1/50th as strong as SSJG then he isn't close to the level of Gods, that would be even more true for Third Form Frost and Piccolo as well if they were weaker still. So none of them are close to the level of Gods.

But Piccolo isn't merely 1/50th of Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God is far above SS3 Vegetto, who is 400 times stronger than base Vegetto, who is stronger than U. Gohan, who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is far stronger than SS3 Goku, who is 4 times stronger than SS2 Goku, who is 2 times stronger than SS Goku, who is stronger than Piccolo... Even if Goku was holding back against 3rd Form Frost, he wasn't using 1-10% of his power like Beerus did in his fights before SSG Goku, otherwise 3rd Form Frost wouldn't have been the one who finally caught his attention. Piccolo asked Frost if he could revert back to his previous form, meaning that at least against 3rd Form Frost he stands a chance, and he also managed to cause trouble against a tired Final Form Frost. If base Goku is 1/50th of SSG (like in the movies), he would have to use much less than 0.1% of his power for 3rd Form Frost to overpower him, and even less if he is as strong as SSG (like in the movies)

Bold part is pure assumption and even then it held only more importance back then in bog movie then in the super anime which seems to retconn some stuff more then few times. Of course I am not saying that ssg > ss3 vegetto is wrong in any way or form. However "far above" isn't even implied in any way or form as Akira only admited that beerus is beyond anything we have seen in z, which means ssj vegito from buu arc. Also moreover I stick to ssj vegito > rage vegeta. I would make ssj vegito at 5 or 6% of beerus power. ssj3 vegito would be either 40% or 48%(5 or 6x8). Piccolo not powering up too much, gohan being retrained from scratch and goku calling majin buu crazy strong and wanting on his team shows that vegito even although weaker isn't far from them.

[ZombieVito]

TBH I'm starting to feel like the power scaling isn't all that messed up in super it just most people here making it so complicated than already is.