Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

h0kuten · Post by **h0kuten** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:29 pm

Well, I had to re-do my computer and ended up losing my power levels so I had to re-do them, but I finally finished!

Legend

Gaps

~10% Gap - Skill makes a difference
~15% Gap - Skill no longer matters. Surprise attacks are still effective.
~20% Gap - Ensured victory for stronger fighter.
~25% Gap - Toying range for stronger fighter.
~30% Gap - Tank range. Blood is drawn, thrown off balance and head is moved.
~40% Gap - Tank range. No blood is drawn, head is moved.
~50% Gap - Speed blitz range. Tank range. No blood, head is not moved.
~60% Gap - Stronger fighter is able to tank without the slightest movement.

Multipliers

~Kkx10 = 10x Base
~Kkx20 = 20x Base
~Ssj = 50x Base
~SsjG2 = 62.50x Base
~SsjG3 = 125x Base
~Ssj2 = 100x Base
~Ssj3 = 400x Base
~Metamoran = 150x Base (Imperfected)
~Metamoran = 750x Base (Perfected)
~Potara = 15,000x Base
~SSJG = 2,000,000x Base

Saiyan Saga

Spoiler:

Namek Saga

Spoiler:

Battle with Frieza

Spoiler:

Arrival of Trunks

Spoiler:

Arrival of The Androids

Spoiler:

Cell is Complete

Spoiler:

The Cell Games

Spoiler:

The Majin Buu Saga

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods

Spoiler:

Fukkatsu no F

Spoiler:

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:41 am

That's a very long list. Might I suggest using the Spoiler tags to group them by story arc or something?

Alex9196 · Post by **Alex9196** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:26 am

@hOkuten

You have Golden Freeza over Goku And Vegeta? In my opinion Goku was clearly stronger.

KentalSSJ6 · Post by **KentalSSJ6** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:57 am

Alex9196 wrote:@hOkuten

You have Golden Freeza over Goku And Vegeta? In my opinion Goku was clearly stronger.

Freeza lost the fight because of the drain from his golden form. Goku even comments he may not win their fight at the rate it was going.

So yeah, Gold Freeza is > SSGSS Goku by a decent margin.

Alex9196 · Post by **Alex9196** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:06 pm

KentalSSJ6 wrote:
Alex9196 wrote:@hOkuten

You have Golden Freeza over Goku And Vegeta? In my opinion Goku was clearly stronger.
Freeza lost the fight because of the drain from his golden form. Goku even comments he may not win their fight at the rate it was going.

So yeah, Gold Freeza is > SSGSS Goku by a decent margin.

Right, I forgot that. Just saw the movie yesterday. I really thought it would be awesome but after it I was like: What did I just watch?

Is there a thread to discuss about it? Because if I discuss here it will be off-topic and many people will complain about spoilers?

supercat · Post by **supercat** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:13 pm

Makes me wonder if Frieza is seriously that impatient or his foolish actions are simply driven by his unrivaled arrogance. If it took him roughly around four months to go from where he was at to nearly Beerus tier, I imagine learning to control his golden form wouldn't have been that time consuming. After falling short of victory twice, I'm surprised he didn't have his lackeys gauge Goku's power before abruptly rushing into a rematch.

Polyphase Avatron · Post by **Polyphase Avatron** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:12 am

supercat wrote:Makes me wonder if Freeza is seriously that impatient or his foolish actions are simply driven by his unrivaled arrogance. If it took him roughly around four months to go from where he was at to nearly Beerus tier, I imagine learning to control his golden form wouldn't have been that time consuming. After falling short of victory twice, I'm surprised he didn't have his lackeys gauge Goku's power before abruptly rushing into a rematch.

Well if Goku had god ki then he couldn't be sensed or detected

supercat · Post by **supercat** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:01 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
supercat wrote:Makes me wonder if Freeza is seriously that impatient or his foolish actions are simply driven by his unrivaled arrogance. If it took him roughly around four months to go from where he was at to nearly Beerus tier, I imagine learning to control his golden form wouldn't have been that time consuming. After falling short of victory twice, I'm surprised he didn't have his lackeys gauge Goku's power before abruptly rushing into a rematch.
Well if Goku had god ki then he couldn't be sensed or detected

Since it looks like Frieza gauges his opponents by visually evaluating their movements, he could have taken a peep at his adversary one more time before heading to Earth.

Then again, they probably pulled a Gero and factored in his improvements through calculations.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:55 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Didn't finish the list but Trunks said Goku was stronger than what he expected.

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Goku's sentence implies that he's inferior to Trunks, who was measuring him up. Trunks rumors came from his mom that can't sense ki, she just said that he was strong and always seemed to come thorough, no matter the challenge. Plus there's this quote later:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Unless you think that, in the time it took for the time machine to recharge Trunks gained that much power, he should be definitely ahead of Goku. His hope steams, I assume, from the 3 years of training in conjunction with his already impressive power and the quality Bulma complimented in Goku.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:59 am

On a whim, I whipped up a small hypothetical Boo-arc list that pretty much just takes SS2 and SS3 away from Gotenks, to allow for SS3 Goku to be the strongest non-Vegetto hero. Otherwise, it's pretty much impossible for him to be.

Spoiler:

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:22 am

Here's something I made on a whim. I wanted to see if it was possible to have the humans surpassing Super Saiyan Trunks from the Trunks saga, but still keep them below the base Saiyans in the Android saga. It only worked for Krillin really, but let me know how much this makes your eyes bleed.

Spoiler:

miguelnuva1 · Post by **miguelnuva1** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:55 pm

LightBing wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Didn't finish the list but Trunks said Goku was stronger than what he expected.
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Goku's sentence implies that he's inferior to Trunks, who was measuring him up. Trunks rumors came from his mom that can't sense ki, she just said that he was strong and always seemed to come thorough, no matter the challenge. Plus there's this quote later:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Unless you think that, in the time it took for the time machine to recharge Trunks gained that much power, he should be definitely ahead of Goku. His hope steams, I assume, from the 3 years of training in conjunction with his already impressive power and the quality Bulma complimented in Goku.

No Goku's statement implies Trunks wasn't using his full power.

Goku> Goku(expected>/=Trunks

Is stated by Trunks at their mini fight. If Goku was weaker than Trunks, Trunks would of had no hope in Goku being able to make a difference.

Trunks had 8 months to let the time machine recharge so according to Toriyama and plot Trunks trained, reached Android saga SSJ level and then fought the Androids again and was able to hold his own. We also have this as a statement

SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku(Androids)>SSJ Trunks(Androids)>Piccolo>SSJ Goku(sick)>SSJ Goku(Yardrat)

Tien sensed both SSJs 3 years ago and thought the Sick Goku was in a whole nother world from them. Also Vegeta and Piccolo thought the Androids could beat Trunks and possibly even Yardrat Goku before they fight 19 and 20.

Later Vegeta says the rumors aren't as bad as they were made at to be which means 19 is some what ahead of Trunks and Picoolo wonders if they over trained which means he is far above Goku and Trunks from the Trunks arc. At worst Piccolo is the same strength as Goku and Trunks.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:19 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Didn't finish the list but Trunks said Goku was stronger than what he expected.
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Goku's sentence implies that he's inferior to Trunks, who was measuring him up. Trunks rumors came from his mom that can't sense ki, she just said that he was strong and always seemed to come thorough, no matter the challenge. Plus there's this quote later:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Unless you think that, in the time it took for the time machine to recharge Trunks gained that much power, he should be definitely ahead of Goku. His hope steams, I assume, from the 3 years of training in conjunction with his already impressive power and the quality Bulma complimented in Goku.
No Goku's statement implies Trunks wasn't using his full power.

Goku> Goku(expected>/=Trunks

Is stated by Trunks at their mini fight. If Goku was weaker than Trunks, Trunks would of had no hope in Goku being able to make a difference.

Trunks had 8 months to let the time machine recharge so according to Toriyama and plot Trunks trained, reached Android saga SSJ level and then fought the Androids again and was able to hold his own. We also have this as a statement

SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku(Androids)>SSJ Trunks(Androids)>Piccolo>SSJ Goku(sick)>SSJ Goku(Yardrat)

Tenshinhan sensed both SSJs 3 years ago and thought the Sick Goku was in a whole nother world from them. Also Vegeta and Piccolo thought the Androids could beat Trunks and possibly even Yardrat Goku before they fight 19 and 20.

Later Vegeta says the rumors aren't as bad as they were made at to be which means 19 is some what ahead of Trunks and Picoolo wonders if they over trained which means he is far above Goku and Trunks from the Trunks arc. At worst Piccolo is the same strength as Goku and Trunks.

Goku statement is immediately after he's complimented, he's taking himself down a peg. Why would Trunks go to the past, return and fight the androids right before he went back to have Goku help him. It makes no sense, and Trunks getting that much stronger in 8 months is also unlikely.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Tien says that it's a different dimension, referring to himself and the other not Super Saiyan characters.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

They can't feel the androids. How could they assume that. Could you provide the quote of Vegeta and Piccolo, saying the Androids could defeat Trunks?

miguelnuva1 · Post by **miguelnuva1** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:30 pm

LightBing wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Didn't finish the list but Trunks said Goku was stronger than what he expected.
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Goku's sentence implies that he's inferior to Trunks, who was measuring him up. Trunks rumors came from his mom that can't sense ki, she just said that he was strong and always seemed to come thorough, no matter the challenge. Plus there's this quote later:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Unless you think that, in the time it took for the time machine to recharge Trunks gained that much power, he should be definitely ahead of Goku. His hope steams, I assume, from the 3 years of training in conjunction with his already impressive power and the quality Bulma complimented in Goku.
No Goku's statement implies Trunks wasn't using his full power.

Goku> Goku(expected>/=Trunks

Is stated by Trunks at their mini fight. If Goku was weaker than Trunks, Trunks would of had no hope in Goku being able to make a difference.

Trunks had 8 months to let the time machine recharge so according to Toriyama and plot Trunks trained, reached Android saga SSJ level and then fought the Androids again and was able to hold his own. We also have this as a statement

SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku(Androids)>SSJ Trunks(Androids)>Piccolo>SSJ Goku(sick)>SSJ Goku(Yardrat)

Tenshinhan sensed both SSJs 3 years ago and thought the Sick Goku was in a whole nother world from them. Also Vegeta and Piccolo thought the Androids could beat Trunks and possibly even Yardrat Goku before they fight 19 and 20.

Later Vegeta says the rumors aren't as bad as they were made at to be which means 19 is some what ahead of Trunks and Picoolo wonders if they over trained which means he is far above Goku and Trunks from the Trunks arc. At worst Piccolo is the same strength as Goku and Trunks.

Goku statement is immediately after he's complimented, he's taking himself down a peg. Why would Trunks go to the past, return and fight the androids right before he went back to have Goku help him. It makes no sense, and Trunks getting that much stronger in 8 months is also unlikely.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Tenshinhan says that it's a different dimension, referring to himself and the other not Super Saiyan characters.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

They can't feel the androids. How could they assume that. Could you provide the quote of Vegeta and Piccolo, saying the Androids could defeat Trunks?

1. Trunks has to wait 8 months to let the machine charge, while that was happening he trained and fought the Androids again, we know that Trunks saga Trunks was stomped by the Androids as he was not that much stronger than Gohan, we also know that Android saga Trunks can fought the Androids well, that means Trunks got stronger. It's also called plot on why Trunks got stronger in just 8 months.

2. Tien trained 3 years and sensed both Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Goku 3 years ago. His reaction means that Super Saiyan Goku(sick) is a monster compared to the two healthy Super Saiyans from 3 years ago. This same Super Saiyan is also weak by Piccolo's standards. Since Tien sensed them three years ago he already knows how much stronger they are than the humans but now the gap is even larger despite himself also training hard.

3. They know how strong the Androids were suppose to be because they were expecting two men who could beat SSJ Trunks, the same way that fodderized Frieza. You also left off Vegeta's quote that says the Androids aren't as bad as the rumors made them out to be. 19 and 20 could beat Trunks(Trunks saga) but they shouldn't be able to stomp him.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P12.3
Context: after No.20 flees
Vegeta: “Damn it all! He’s quicker than I thought…!”

First is Vegeta talking about 19 and the second is talking about 20, at least 20 should be able to handle the Trunks that was seen 3 years ago.[/quote]

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:32 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
1. Trunks has to wait 8 months to let the machine charge, while that was happening he trained and fought the Androids again, we know that Trunks saga Trunks was stomped by the Androids as he was not that much stronger than Gohan, we also know that Android saga Trunks can fought the Androids well, that means Trunks got stronger. It's also called plot on why Trunks got stronger in just 8 months.

2. Tenshinhan trained 3 years and sensed both Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Goku 3 years ago. His reaction means that Super Saiyan Goku(sick) is a monster compared to the two healthy Super Saiyans from 3 years ago. This same Super Saiyan is also weak by Piccolo's standards. Since Tenshinhan sensed them three years ago he already knows how much stronger they are than the humans but now the gap is even larger despite himself also training hard.

3. They know how strong the Androids were suppose to be because they were expecting two men who could beat SSJ Trunks, the same way that fodderized Freeza. You also left off Vegeta's quote that says the Androids aren't as bad as the rumors made them out to be. 19 and 20 could beat Trunks(Trunks saga) but they shouldn't be able to stomp him.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P12.3
Context: after No.20 flees
Vegeta: “Damn it all! He’s quicker than I thought…!”

First is Vegeta talking about 19 and the second is talking about 20, at least 20 should be able to handle the Trunks that was seen 3 years ago.

1- Again, it makes no sense for him to try and fight the androids after going to the past. In Trunks Story, 3 years after Gohan is killed he powers up considerably, so much that he believes himself capable of defeating the androids only to barely survive. Afterwards he admits he has no chance and agrees to travel to the past and meet Goku, because like his mother said "Trunks asks if he was really that strong. “He was certainly strong, but… No matter what tremendous things happened, somehow or other, he always seems to do something. He would give you such a mysterious feeling."
Why would he fight them again before returning. He's presented as cautious, so the able to hold out against a single android quote, refers to his fight right before the first trip to the past.

2- He says "so that's a Super Saiyan" like it's the first time he felt one. His quote doesn't have specific power connotations besides, Super Saiyans are a different dimension from the rest. He makes no comparisons of strength besides that one. Piccolo just wonders because he knows that Goku is better than what he is showing, before he discovers that the heart virus is taking effect. Which is further reinforced in the next point.

3- The first quote points out, clearly, that the androids are weaker than they were supposed to be. Since they aren't as terrible as Trunks described them. The speed remark of Vegeta is almost irrelevant, and in no way means that he's capable of taking down Trunks. If he was that much stronger, why let Piccolo fight him. Vegeta wouldn't certainly allow it, if he would contribute with energy to #20.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:08 pm

@Kaboom, I was looking at your battle powers list, and had a question. Why do you have Mr. Boo doubling his power from the fight with Pure Boo to the End of Z? I was just curious as to if that was a mistake or if you actually believe he got stronger.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:21 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:@Kaboom, I was looking at your battle powers list, and had a question. Why do you have Mr. Boo doubling his power from the fight with Pure Boo to the End of Z? I was just curious as to if that was a mistake or if you actually believe he got stronger.

I was probably being indecisive about whether losing over half his power was permanent or not (like, did he somehow get it back during all of the absorption shenanigans), and forgot to choose one way or the other. STILL haven't decided, though it probably doesn't make much of a difference with the story.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:23 pm

Ah, okay. I was just curious.

miguelnuva1 · Post by **miguelnuva1** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:50 pm

LightBing wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:
1. Trunks has to wait 8 months to let the machine charge, while that was happening he trained and fought the Androids again, we know that Trunks saga Trunks was stomped by the Androids as he was not that much stronger than Gohan, we also know that Android saga Trunks can fought the Androids well, that means Trunks got stronger. It's also called plot on why Trunks got stronger in just 8 months.

2. Tenshinhan trained 3 years and sensed both Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Goku 3 years ago. His reaction means that Super Saiyan Goku(sick) is a monster compared to the two healthy Super Saiyans from 3 years ago. This same Super Saiyan is also weak by Piccolo's standards. Since Tenshinhan sensed them three years ago he already knows how much stronger they are than the humans but now the gap is even larger despite himself also training hard.

3. They know how strong the Androids were suppose to be because they were expecting two men who could beat SSJ Trunks, the same way that fodderized Freeza. You also left off Vegeta's quote that says the Androids aren't as bad as the rumors made them out to be. 19 and 20 could beat Trunks(Trunks saga) but they shouldn't be able to stomp him.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P12.3
Context: after No.20 flees
Vegeta: “Damn it all! He’s quicker than I thought…!”

First is Vegeta talking about 19 and the second is talking about 20, at least 20 should be able to handle the Trunks that was seen 3 years ago.
1- Again, it makes no sense for him to try and fight the androids after going to the past. In Trunks Story, 3 years after Gohan is killed he powers up considerably, so much that he believes himself capable of defeating the androids only to barely survive. Afterwards he admits he has no chance and agrees to travel to the past and meet Goku, because like his mother said "Trunks asks if he was really that strong. “He was certainly strong, but… No matter what tremendous things happened, somehow or other, he always seems to do something. He would give you such a mysterious feeling."
Why would he fight them again before returning. He's presented as cautious, so the able to hold out against a single android quote, refers to his fight right before the first trip to the past.

2- He says "so that's a Super Saiyan" like it's the first time he felt one. His quote doesn't have specific power connotations besides, Super Saiyans are a different dimension from the rest. He makes no comparisons of strength besides that one. Piccolo just wonders because he knows that Goku is better than what he is showing, before he discovers that the heart virus is taking effect. Which is further reinforced in the next point.

3- The first quote points out, clearly, that the androids are weaker than they were supposed to be. Since they aren't as terrible as Trunks described them. The speed remark of Vegeta is almost irrelevant, and in no way means that he's capable of taking down Trunks. If he was that much stronger, why let Piccolo fight him. Vegeta wouldn't certainly allow it, if he would contribute with energy to #20.

1. Just like it makes no sense for Trunks to go from weaker than Yardart Goku to on par with Goku and Vegeta in the Android saga with only 8 months of training and Goku and Vegeta had 3 years. We also know that Trunks is not vastly superior to one armed Gohan who got beat by 17 alone, we have Bulma's statement, Trunks being rash and wanting revenge and then Trunks losing the fight to back up Trunks> Gohan by not a large amount. Also what were are shown about Trunks is that he in inexperienced and rushes into battles when ever he thinks he has an advantage. Since Trunks powered up from Trunks saga to Android saga super saiyan level and since the Androids attack the Future it makes sense Trunks would try to fight the Androids and save lives.

2. We know that he has seen two three years ago, The sick Goku was so much better than Yardart Goku and Trunks, Tien was shocked to since Goku's power despite having felt the power three years ago. Trunks(Android saga)Piccolo>Sick SSJ Goku>Yardat Goku>Trunks. Kuririn also states Piccolo is as strong as a Super Saiyan and he only felt Trunks and Goku during their mini battle.

3. The rumor is the Androids can manhandle SSJ Trunks that beat Mecha Frieza, Vegeta says the rumors are not as bad as they were made out to be not that the Rumors are wrong. Trunks saga SSJ Trunks should probably be able to fight 19 ans 20 the way Gohan fought 17 and 18 in the Anime. He can beat them one on one but together they can beat Trunks. The speed part is important as Vegeta says he underestimated 20 so that means 20 can be placed over Trunks.

17 and 18>17 and 18(future)>/Androids(expected)>19 and 20> SSJ Trunks

h0kuten · Post by **h0kuten** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:55 am

What did everyone think of my power levels? Lol?

Kanzenshuu

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