Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Blackstripe]

Oh and also Pan had the same white aura as Goku and Vegeta, so hopefully people give us on the idea that white aura = God level.

Was it the same color of aura? I mean, the humans, Base Gohan and Piccolo also have an aura in both Z and Super, as did Gokuu in his base state. So...an aura being white doesn't automatically mean she is beyond God.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

BoG Super Saiyan 3 Goku=Too weak to gauge God Chi
Mr. Boo=Weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Base Goku Post BoG=Strong enough to gauge God Chi
Base Vegeta Post six months of Whis training=Strong enough to gauge God Chi and potentially stronger than Goku

There's no way Mr. Boo should be comparable to them when considering the above.

[amuroray]

TBH I'm starting to feel like the power scaling isn't all that messed up in super it just most people here making it so complicated than already is.

No it is messed up. Vegeta getting to god level in 6 months, pan flying and piccolo and frosts inconsistent powerlevels are just a few examples of this.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We don't know how much stronger SSJG Goku is than SSJ3 Vegito. Being as the character was never in the series for all we know they may have only been referring to SSJ1 Vegito. We also don't know if Base Vegito is stronger than Gohan.

Goku believed that him merging with Vegeta wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus, and then SSG ended up so strong he couldn't even imagine such power existed. Goku could imagine how strong SS Gotenks would have been before he was created, so he should be able to estimate SS3 Vegetto's power.

As for base Vegetto, Rou Kaioshin says that Goku & Vegeta make the strongest result because they are rivals, implying that base Vegetto is stronger than base "Gokuhan" would have been, who was expected to be stronger that Gotenks Boo. The anime also shows that base Vegetto is much stronger than U. Gohan, which isn't contradicted by anything in the manga.

Not saying that these are facts so no point on getting off-topic about these, but that's what I believe. Even if SSG Goku was at the same level as Super Vegetto, my point still stands.

Except he isn't otherwise Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have transformed into a Super Saiyan in order to stay above him. Against Frieza their Base form was enough to stay ahead of him.

Do you have any evidence that base Goku fought the revived Final Form Freeza in the manga continuity?

We know exactly what happened because the intention is obviously that what happened in between is the story that the audience has seen and is familiar with and not a completely different version altogether.

You don't have to see FnF to understand what happens in Super, the key events are described in the manga.

Same thing as whatever the Oozaru appearing behind Goku in the Piccolo fight implied.

Entirely different case. Oozaru was symbolizing Goku's recently drawn out dormant powers & his rage. What else could SSG possibly mean?

The FnF manga, like the movie, is the continuation of BoG. This is the first time we see Goku since BoG, so that scene reminds the audience that this isn't just regular Goku, but he has absorbed the power of SSG.

No they haven't, they've never once even implied that let alone made it clear.

It's very clear. Not even once was it said that Goku absorbed any of the SSG power, and we were told that he & Vegeta achieved SSB through Whis' training.

In the BoG movie Base is roughly as strong as SSJG. Being that RoF is supposed to be a direct continuation then the same is probably also true.

If the U6 arc is indeed supposed to follow the movies, then Super Saiyan shouldn't make Goku & Vegeta significantly stronger, and yet it does. Piccolo also wouldn't be at a close level with base Goku & Vegeta, yet still weaker than Boo. And Frost can't be both stronger & weaker than Freeza at the same time. So, the only explanation for them to be in the same continuity is if the 2 base forms theory is true.

[ssbgoku]

BoG Super Saiyan 3 Goku=Too weak to gauge God Chi
Mr. Boo=Weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Base Goku Post BoG=Strong enough to gauge God Chi
Base Vegeta Post six months of Whis training=Strong enough to gauge God Chi and potentially stronger than Goku

There's no way Mr. Boo should be comparable to them when considering the above.

Sure, but ultimate gohan would be the lowest level where you can feel divine ki, or it could be just retconn by Akira. Still more then less things points to base goku being above mr buu just around ssj3 tier, maybe a bit above.

[Brettjr25]

I'm sorry...can some one clue me in to why people think Base Goku is around Piccolo's level???

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm sorry...can some one clue me in to why people think Base Goku is around Piccolo's level???

3rd Form Frost was strong enough to catch base Goku's attention. Piccolo was confident that he could manage something against 3rd Form Frost, since he asked him to revert back to that form. Base Vegeta (who is equal to Goku) was either stronger than tired Final Form Frost, but not strong enough to one-shot him, or he was weaker than him. Piccolo was weaker than tired Final Form Frost, but he was strong enough to cause him trouble and make him even more tired.

So, either Piccolo is weaker, but close to base Goku & Vegeta, or he is much stronger than them, yet weaker than SS Goku & Vegeta.

[Bullza]

Do you have any evidence that base Goku fought the revived Final Form Freeza in the manga continuity?

Yes, Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza in each version of the Resurrection F story (movie, anime and manga). The Super manga skipped the arc and assumes people know the story that happened in between. The manga is being written with it in mind that people know how Resurrection F played out.

This shouldn't need to be explained.

You don't have to see FnF to understand what happens in Super, the key events are described in the manga.

And the key events perfectly match all three versions of the same story. And the same would be true for the whole story.

The FnF manga, like the movie, is the continuation of BoG. This is the first time we see Goku since BoG, so that scene reminds the audience that this isn't just regular Goku, but he has absorbed the power of SSG.

And that could very well be the case. Unfortunately the anime depicts it differently which is the cause for confusion and the Super manga is likely more akin to the anime than the movies.

It's very clear. Not even once was it said that Goku absorbed any of the SSG power, and we were told that he & Vegeta achieved SSB through Whis' training.

A lot of things weren't said. It doesn't need to be said, it was made clear that he'd absorbed it in the movie and in the Super anime and it would obviously be the same for the Super manga whether it was mentioned or not.

Goku isn't going to be SSJ3+ in the Super anime but then regular level in the Super manga especially when both are based on the exact same plot outline.

If the U6 arc is indeed supposed to follow the movies, then Super Saiyan shouldn't make Goku & Vegeta significantly stronger, and yet it does.

But it doesn't follow the movies. It follows the new slightly altered retelling version which is Super.

So Super Saiyan can make them significantly stronger. Piccolo can be closer to the Base Saiyans. Frost can be stronger than Frieza. There doesn't need to be any convulated two base theory.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza in each version of the Resurrection F story (movie, anime and manga). The Super manga skipped the arc and assumes people know the story that happened in between. The manga is being written with it in mind that people know how Resurrection F played out.

That's an assumption you are making, not a fact. SS Goku vs Beerus didn't happen in the Super manga continuity, so things may have changed in the FnF story that happened in this continuity.

And that could very well be the case.

Do you have any proof from the manga?

A lot of things weren't said. It doesn't need to be said, it was made clear that he'd absorbed it in the movie and in the Super anime and it would obviously be the same for the Super manga whether it was mentioned or not.

That's not how it works. The Super manga is supposed to be its own thing, like the Super anime is its own thing, and the 2 movies. The only other thing that you are supposed to have seen is the original manga or DB/Z/Kai.

So Super Saiyan can make them significantly stronger. Piccolo can be closer to the Base Saiyans. Frost can be stronger than Frieza. There doesn't need to be any convulated two base theory.

Goku: "Wow Frost, you are stronger than Freeza was after he trained! You should train like Freeza did, that's what he did & got stronger!"

Goku: "So Vegeta, after us, the strongest is Majin Boo! Then next is Piccolo, other than Gohan who doesn't fight anymore. Oh look, Piccolo was so weak before, from Cell Games to the Freeza's return, but now he has magically become so much stronger all of a sudden, stronger than Super Saiyan 3! Let's not make any comment about this and only talk about how weak he is!"

Do you see how contradictory this is?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

BoG Super Saiyan 3 Goku=Too weak to gauge God Chi
Mr. Boo=Weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Base Goku Post BoG=Strong enough to gauge God Chi
Base Vegeta Post six months of Whis training=Strong enough to gauge God Chi and potentially stronger than Goku

There's no way Mr. Boo should be comparable to them when considering the above.

Sure, but ultimate gohan would be the lowest level where you can feel divine ki, or it could be just retconn by Akira. Still more then less things points to base goku being above mr buu just around ssj3 tier, maybe a bit above.

Are you talking about when Gohan sensed Dende? I don't think Dende has God Chi because even Piccolo sensed him.

[Neon Z]

Do you have any proof from the manga?

Like I mentioned in the previous page and got completely ignored, SSJB Vegeta hit Base Goku during their training, but he just stood up afterwards still ready to fight. There's no way that would have happened if his Base were vastly weaker than in the movie and anime.

[LightBing]

Do you have any proof from the manga?

Like I mentioned in the previous page and got completely ignored, SSJB Vegeta hit Base Goku during their training, but he just stood up afterwards still ready to fight. There's no way that would have happened if his Base were vastly weaker than in the movie and anime.

There's various examples of stronger characters hitting much weaker characters without significant damage. This appear to be another one. Vegeta doesn't want to put down Goku, he wants to fight him while both are SSJB. He's messing with him and forcing him to transform.

Look at Goten vs Trunks at the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's very similar.

[Bullza]

That's an assumption you are making

No it isn't. There was a recent Resurrection F story that fans were familiar with, this story was told pretty much the exact same way between the three versions. The Super manga skipped the story and continued on but under the impression that readers were familiar with the story in between. Not familiar with a radically different version of this story as you seem to think but familiar with the one that people have actually seen.

You're the one making the assumption that even though three versions of the same recent story are near identical, in this fourth version, events played out completely different despite that never actually being specified and the only thing that was specified was true for the all the other versions of the story.

Do you have any proof from the manga?

There's no proof for anything because it was simply a picture.

The Super manga is supposed to be its own thing, like the Super anime is its own thing, and the 2 movies. The only other thing that you are supposed to have seen is the original manga or DB/Z/Kai.

It's it's own take on the exact same plot outline presented by Toriyama. There's small changes with how fights play out or dialogue but the overall power structure will remain the same.

Do you see how contradictory this is?

It is strange. That said Piccolo never told him to revert back into his Third Form, all he said was "You're planning to fight me in your Final Form? Feel free to hold back." So there's nothing to say he is equal to his Third Form of which would be a weakened Third Form compared to the one that Goku fought.

From there you'd have to put more emphasis on the fact that him fighting completely on the defensive is what allowed him to do as well as he did.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No it isn't. There was a recent Resurrection F story that fans were familiar with, this story was told pretty much the exact same way between the three versions. The Super manga skipped the story and continued on but under the impression that readers were familiar with the story in between. Not familiar with a radically different version of this story as you seem to think but familiar with the one that people have actually seen.

You're the one making the assumption that even though three versions of the same recent story are near identical, in this fourth version, events played out completely different despite that never actually being specified and the only thing that was specified was true for the all the other versions of the story.

Again, we've seen changes & omissions have already happened, SS Goku vs Beerus never happened in the Super manga continuity for example & base Goku vs Beerus never happened in neither the Super anime nor the Super manga continuity, so how can you be so sure that base Goku vs FF Freeza happened?

It's it's own take on the exact same plot outline presented by Toriyama. There's small changes with how fights play out or dialogue but the overall power structure will remain the same.

If that was the case, they wouldn't have retconned base Goku with SSG power in the Super anime.

It is strange. That said Piccolo never told him to revert back into his Third Form, all he said was "You're planning to fight me in your Final Form? Feel free to hold back." So there's nothing to say he is equal to his Third Form of which would be a weakened Third Form compared to the one that Goku fought.

He complained about Frost fighting in his Final Form, so he wanted him to revert back to a previous form.

From there you'd have to put more emphasis on the fact that him fighting completely on the defensive is what allowed him to do as well as he did.

If Frost is anywhere near base Goku with SSG powers, Piccolo wouldn't be able to run away at all.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo was able to get away because Frost was weakened.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo was able to get away because Frost was weakened.

How weakened? He doesn't look to be at 0.001% of his full power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm not sure. Frost did say he didn't have much left in the tank except for his drive. I think that was the only reason why Piccolo was able to dodge him like he did.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not sure. Frost did say he didn't have much left in the tank except for his drive. I think that was the only reason why Piccolo was able to dodge him like he did.

If he was weakened that much, then Vegeta wouldn't have to turn into a Super Saiyan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, was Frost telling a lie when he said he had nothing but his drive left? Because that certainly sounds like he's exhausted most of his power.

Vegeta one-shotted Frost with utter ease. He probably didn't need to transform, but did so because he wanted Frost to feel all of it.

[ssbgoku]

Piccolo was able to get away because Frost was weakened.

How weakened? He doesn't look to be at 0.001% of his full power.

It only further proves that base goku/vegeta need to be at ssj3 tier or only little a bit stronger for it to make sense. If we accept that route then Picoolo even assuming minimal gain from cell arc, Picoolo would be perfect cell or even super perfect cell.

For that to make sense Picoolo would only need to be x6 to x4 weaker then ssj3 goku aka dbs base goku/vegeta.

I'm not sure. Frost did say he didn't have much left in the tank except for his drive. I think that was the only reason why Piccolo was able to dodge him like he did.

If he was weakened that much, then Vegeta wouldn't have to turn into a Super Saiyan.

Sure Frost would lie to look good and keep his fake goodness, either that or Frost was just saving his stamina for further battles and only wanted to go at Picoolo with minimal advantage, in other words he understimated him. Also it could be just combination of fake goodness and saving up stamina, or maybe Frost was using only minimal power for his stamina to restore so he could have chance against other fighters.

There is many excusees people can come up for it to make sense, but still base goku/vegeta need to be in rage of ssj3 goku ultimate gohan at the best.