Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[iAnimationLover_]

One thing that starts confusing me is Tate......the schedule is much better and his quality is still that low (Kitano's Trunks didn't look like that). Basically, 72 might prove that without a capable animator correcting him all the time, Tate's animation is.....for the lack of a better word.....bad (more specific his art). I dont know why Toei consider him a top animation dog. Fluid animation requires good models to shine. Without art you have no difference than any other animator in the industry. Its like calling yourself a good football player without knowing what a dribble is.
I hope I am wrong but 72's NEP reminded me why resurection f was bad.....please Tate prove me wrong. Also even if they mentioned Karasawa I feel like I saw some Kitano and no Karasawa.
(Also I started appreciating Tate in Trunks Saga. I considered his 26 cut bad)

On the other hand Shimanuki proved how much of a badass he is. That guy can indeed with enough time produce quality. The potato heads are almost gone. He earned the title Godmanuki

To be fair, Tate had to work on episode 66 and 69 when he only has 7 weeks for this episode. So he has a LOT less time than just 7 weeks (Why has no one mentioned this?)

[Mazingerdestro]

One thing that starts confusing me is Tate......the schedule is much better and his quality is still that low (Kitano's Trunks didn't look like that). Basically, 72 might prove that without a capable animator correcting him all the time, Tate's animation is.....for the lack of a better word.....bad (more specific his art). I dont know why Toei consider him a top animation dog. Fluid animation requires good models to shine. Without art you have no difference than any other animator in the industry. Its like calling yourself a good football player without knowing what a dribble is.
I hope I am wrong but 72's NEP reminded me why resurection f was bad.....please Tate prove me wrong. Also even if they mentioned Karasawa I feel like I saw some Kitano and no Karasawa.
(Also I started appreciating Tate in Trunks Saga. I considered his 26 cut bad)

On the other hand Shimanuki proved how much of a badass he is. That guy can indeed with enough time produce quality. The potato heads are almost gone. He earned the title Godmanuki

Tate's quality isn't low without someone correcting him. Just look at his One Piece episodes or even One Piece movie 6 which inspired Tate. It's more of a matter of you not liking the loose art style, not that the models are structurally bad.

I am one of those people who are indifferent to op but love movie 6. However, don't get confused. Movie 6 had loose style but wasn't off model.
With Tate I have a feeling that he is not a team guy and basically flat out gives the middle finger to character predetermined designs. What people don't get is that loose and totally off model is completely different. If the characters had different colors, you might missed the fact thst they were hit and goku

[JazzMazz]

One thing that starts confusing me is Tate......the schedule is much better and his quality is still that low (Kitano's Trunks didn't look like that). Basically, 72 might prove that without a capable animator correcting him all the time, Tate's animation is.....for the lack of a better word.....bad (more specific his art). I dont know why Toei consider him a top animation dog. Fluid animation requires good models to shine. Without art you have no difference than any other animator in the industry. Its like calling yourself a good football player without knowing what a dribble is.
I hope I am wrong but 72's NEP reminded me why resurection f was bad.....please Tate prove me wrong. Also even if they mentioned Karasawa I feel like I saw some Kitano and no Karasawa.
(Also I started appreciating Tate in Trunks Saga. I considered his 26 cut bad)

On the other hand Shimanuki proved how much of a badass he is. That guy can indeed with enough time produce quality. The potato heads are almost gone. He earned the title Godmanuki

The reason most of his stuff is rushed, is because he does a lot more than the majority of the animators on the show when it comes to action segements. Animating entire halves of the episode by single-handely is not easy for any animator to accomplish, espicially if not given a solid schedule (something Tate doesn't have the luxury of). I've noticed that his focusing a lot more on movement or effects these last couple of episodes, while keeping his art very rough to compensate for the schedule.
Honestly one of the reasons I'm personally looking forward to this episode is because some of the preview was slightly reminiscent of the debris work in this insane scene.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
Seeing Tate able to draw semi detailed debris work has gotten my hopes up for the next episode.
Also, could we stop with all the Tate hate, I feel like Ajay's going to have a heart-attack from all the negative comments here about an NEP that he personally found very promising.

I am one of those people who are indifferent to op but love movie 6. However, don't get confused. Movie 6 had loose style but wasn't off model.
With Tate I have a feeling that he is not a team guy and basically flat out gives the middle finger to character predetermined designs. What people don't get is that loose and totally off model is completely different. If the characters had different colors, you might missed the fact thst they were hit and goku

One piece movie six didn't pertain to the model sheet of the series and was given it's own model sheet which better allowed the animators to experiment.
I'm pretty sure Toei even allowed Tate to be the character designer of some of the episodes he did on One Piece, thus not being off model.
The current character designs that Dragonball has are not good for animation. Also Shida gives a middle finger to the character sheets all the time and I didn't read any complaints about it, even when they are extremely loose like it was in 57.

[iAnimationLover_]

One thing that starts confusing me is Tate......the schedule is much better and his quality is still that low (Kitano's Trunks didn't look like that). Basically, 72 might prove that without a capable animator correcting him all the time, Tate's animation is.....for the lack of a better word.....bad (more specific his art). I dont know why Toei consider him a top animation dog. Fluid animation requires good models to shine. Without art you have no difference than any other animator in the industry. Its like calling yourself a good football player without knowing what a dribble is.
I hope I am wrong but 72's NEP reminded me why resurection f was bad.....please Tate prove me wrong. Also even if they mentioned Karasawa I feel like I saw some Kitano and no Karasawa.
(Also I started appreciating Tate in Trunks Saga. I considered his 26 cut bad)

On the other hand Shimanuki proved how much of a badass he is. That guy can indeed with enough time produce quality. The potato heads are almost gone. He earned the title Godmanuki

Tate's quality isn't low without someone correcting him. Just look at his One Piece episodes or even One Piece movie 6 which inspired Tate. It's more of a matter of you not liking the loose art style, not that the models are structurally bad.

I am one of those people who are indifferent to op but love movie 6. However, don't get confused. Movie 6 had loose style but wasn't off model.
With Tate I have a feeling that he is not a team guy and basically flat out gives the middle finger to character predetermined designs. What people don't get is that loose and totally off model is completely different. If the characters had different colors, you might missed the fact thst they were hit and goku

Read my reply above please

I spy Karasawa here. Looks exactly like that opening Kamehameha from #66:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm also interested in what he does. I suspect handling a lot of dialogue and some bits of action, perhaps?

He may well correct Tate. There's the opening shot on the NEP with upturned noses that seem Tate-esque, but the art appears cleaned-up by Karasawa.

Look at goku's hand shading. LOOK AT THEM!!

[JazzMazz]

I spy Karasawa here. Looks exactly like that opening Kamehameha from #66:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm also interested in what he does. I suspect handling a lot of dialogue and some bits of action, perhaps?

He may well correct Tate. There's the opening shot on the NEP with upturned noses that seem Tate-esque, but the art appears cleaned-up by Karasawa.

Look at goku's hand shading. LOOK AT THEM!!

I'm going to be jerk and say I don't like the nose. Everything else is mostly fine.
Also is it just me, or did anyone else notice that the eyes were being drawn with rounded edges, a little more like Toriyama's current artstyle. It wasn't everywhere throughout the episode, but it was certainly present. Even the above image has more rounded eyes.

[HeroR]

I am one of those people who are indifferent to op but love movie 6. However, don't get confused. Movie 6 had loose style but wasn't off model.
With Tate I have a feeling that he is not a team guy and basically flat out gives the middle finger to character predetermined designs. What people don't get is that loose and totally off model is completely different. If the characters had different colors, you might missed the fact thst they were hit and goku

Then look at One Piece movie 9. That movie was his work using a similar style to movie 6. And I can completely tell Hit from Goku without the colors.

[Mazingerdestro]

One thing that starts confusing me is Tate......the schedule is much better and his quality is still that low (Kitano's Trunks didn't look like that). Basically, 72 might prove that without a capable animator correcting him all the time, Tate's animation is.....for the lack of a better word.....bad (more specific his art). I dont know why Toei consider him a top animation dog. Fluid animation requires good models to shine. Without art you have no difference than any other animator in the industry. Its like calling yourself a good football player without knowing what a dribble is.
I hope I am wrong but 72's NEP reminded me why resurection f was bad.....please Tate prove me wrong. Also even if they mentioned Karasawa I feel like I saw some Kitano and no Karasawa.
(Also I started appreciating Tate in Trunks Saga. I considered his 26 cut bad)

On the other hand Shimanuki proved how much of a badass he is. That guy can indeed with enough time produce quality. The potato heads are almost gone. He earned the title Godmanuki

The reason most of his stuff is rushed, is because he does a lot more than the majority of the animators on the show when it comes to action segements. Animating entire halves of the episode by single-handely is not easy for any animator to accomplish, espicially if not given a solid schedule (something Tate doesn't have the luxury of). I've noticed that his focusing a lot more on movement or effects these last couple of episodes, while keeping his art very rough to compensate for the schedule.
Honestly one of the reasons I'm personally looking forward to this episode is because some of the preview was slightly reminiscent of the debris work in this insane scene.
[spoiler]https://sakugabooru.com/data/451a0ee2f0 ... 4b128.webm[/spoiler]
Seeing Tate able to draw semi detailed debris work has gotten my hopes up for the next episode.
Also, could we stop with all the Tate hate, I feel like Ajay's going to have a heart-attack from all the negative comments here about an NEP that he personally found very promising.

I am one of those people who are indifferent to op but love movie 6. However, don't get confused. Movie 6 had loose style but wasn't off model.
With Tate I have a feeling that he is not a team guy and basically flat out gives the middle finger to character predetermined designs. What people don't get is that loose and totally off model is completely different. If the characters had different colors, you might missed the fact thst they were hit and goku

One piece movie six didn't pertain to the model sheet of the series and was given it's own model sheet which better allowed the animators to experiment.
I'm pretty sure Toei even allowed Tate to be the character designer of some of the episodes he did on One Piece, thus not being off model.
The current character designs that Dragonball has are not good for animation. Also Shida gives a middle finger to the character sheets all the time and I didn't read any complaints about it, even when they are extremely loose like it was in 57.

Hate? A guy that says "please Tate prove me wrong" hates the guy? Why not stop with all this Tate love I say and judge everyone equally. A good animated series needs movement+good art. If we get both I am fine. If we can't have them then we should expect from the animator to somehow mask that (they are artists and know countless tricks to do that and of course many people do thst successfully in super). Animation is an illusion. When the eye can see pencil lines, the magic of animation is lost.
A weekly series requires consistency and quality. They don't animate for an arts festival but for mainstream audience. I judge Tate as I judge Shida, Kitano, Karasawa etc. Equally
I don't accept "these characters are not good for a series" these are the characters that are provided and every animator is pushed to his limits to produce quality material every week. Everyone is a professional and they should put their love for the series and the fans over their love of innovating.

Also yeah the Karasawa shading is indeed clear.

[ArchedThunder]

Look at goku's hand shading. LOOK AT THEM!!

That hand shading is really nice, but man Goku's face is kinda messed up. That's a pretty rough output from Karasawa. Could it be that he's doing a lot in the episode? Or maybe he's focused on something else?
Karasawa also seemed to have some pretty rough looking stuff in both 57 and 66, what happened to his art looking like this and this?

[Mazingerdestro]

Look at goku's hand shading. LOOK AT THEM!!

That hand shading is really nice, but man Goku's face is kinda messed up. That's a pretty rough output from Karasawa. Could it be that he's doing a lot in the episode? Or maybe he's focused on something else?
Karasawa also seemed to have some pretty rough looking stuff in both 57 and 66, what happened to his art looking like this and this?

I think your idea for Karasawa comes from 57 and the filler water episode (both excellent) like I do, which confused you as it did for me.

[iAnimationLover_]

Look at goku's hand shading. LOOK AT THEM!!

That hand shading is really nice, but man Goku's face is kinda messed up. That's a pretty rough output from Karasawa. Could it be that he's doing a lot in the episode? Or maybe he's focused on something else?
Karasawa also seemed to have some pretty rough looking stuff in both 57 and 66, what happened to his art looking like this and this?

Yea, i always have that in my mind somewhere, it bothers me a lil bit.

Just a lil bit.

[ArchedThunder]

I went back to look and in the NEP at least that specific shot of Goku is only on screen for about a frame and what lingers the longest is this
[spoiler][/spoiler]
(sorry about the subs)
So maybe it's the same in the final episode and it's only rough because of how little time it is on screen.

[JazzMazz]

One thing that starts confusing me is Tate......the schedule is much better and his quality is still that low (Kitano's Trunks didn't look like that). Basically, 72 might prove that without a capable animator correcting him all the time, Tate's animation is.....for the lack of a better word.....bad (more specific his art). I dont know why Toei consider him a top animation dog. Fluid animation requires good models to shine. Without art you have no difference than any other animator in the industry. Its like calling yourself a good football player without knowing what a dribble is.
I hope I am wrong but 72's NEP reminded me why resurection f was bad.....please Tate prove me wrong. Also even if they mentioned Karasawa I feel like I saw some Kitano and no Karasawa.
(Also I started appreciating Tate in Trunks Saga. I considered his 26 cut bad)

On the other hand Shimanuki proved how much of a badass he is. That guy can indeed with enough time produce quality. The potato heads are almost gone. He earned the title Godmanuki

The reason most of his stuff is rushed, is because he does a lot more than the majority of the animators on the show when it comes to action segements. Animating entire halves of the episode by single-handely is not easy for any animator to accomplish, espicially if not given a solid schedule (something Tate doesn't have the luxury of). I've noticed that his focusing a lot more on movement or effects these last couple of episodes, while keeping his art very rough to compensate for the schedule.
Honestly one of the reasons I'm personally looking forward to this episode is because some of the preview was slightly reminiscent of the debris work in this insane scene.
[spoiler]https://sakugabooru.com/data/451a0ee2f0 ... 4b128.webm[/spoiler]
Seeing Tate able to draw semi detailed debris work has gotten my hopes up for the next episode.
Also, could we stop with all the Tate hate, I feel like Ajay's going to have a heart-attack from all the negative comments here about an NEP that he personally found very promising.

I am one of those people who are indifferent to op but love movie 6. However, don't get confused. Movie 6 had loose style but wasn't off model.
With Tate I have a feeling that he is not a team guy and basically flat out gives the middle finger to character predetermined designs. What people don't get is that loose and totally off model is completely different. If the characters had different colors, you might missed the fact thst they were hit and goku

One piece movie six didn't pertain to the model sheet of the series and was given it's own model sheet which better allowed the animators to experiment.
I'm pretty sure Toei even allowed Tate to be the character designer of some of the episodes he did on One Piece, thus not being off model.
The current character designs that Dragonball has are not good for animation. Also Shida gives a middle finger to the character sheets all the time and I didn't read any complaints about it, even when they are extremely loose like it was in 57.

Hate? A guy that says "please Tate prove me wrong" hates the guy? Why not stop with all this Tate love I say and judge everyone equally. A good animated series needs movement+good art. If we get both I am fine. If we can't have them then we should expect from the animator to somehow mask that (they are artists and know countless tricks to do that and of course many people do thst successfully in super). Animation is an illusion. When the eye can see pencil lines, the magic of animation is lost.
A weekly series requires consistency and quality. They don't animate for an arts festival but for mainstream audience. I judge Tate as I judge Shida, Kitano, Karasawa etc. Equally
I don't accept "these characters are not good for a series" these are the characters that are provided and every animator is pushed to his limits to produce quality material every week. Everyone is a professional and they should put their love for the series and the fans over their love of innovating.

Also yeah the Karasawa shading is indeed clear.

I'm not saying you hate Tate, I just included it generally since there have been loads of overly negative thoughts surrounding the NEP. I personally thought that 56, though very polished was a little conservative, while 65, being more interesting, was also very rough. What we saw in the NEP was mostly fine, there was lots of movement and though it looks like it could have been more polished, the little movement that we saw looked really solid as did the debris and effects work.
Art, is very subjective, animation doesn't need to have good art per se, it needs to convey something to the audience by creating the illusion of motion. An example of animation conveying a feeling and motion is the work here from the overly scrutinized Naruto Shippuuden #167.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
Also, the pencil line argument is bullshit, is the magic of animation lost in these scenes?
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I also already mentioned that Tate is focusing more on solid movement and constant movement than high art quality.
Finally, Tate's work on this series has not been very innovative, his simply doing his best with the designs his been given to produce quality of some kind. Some people would even go as far to say that Tate is too on model. Again, I don't like using this argument but it seems justified with what your suggesting, Shida is completely throwing away the character sheets and doing his own thing and is far more off-model than Tate but he produces quality stuff like Tate, so I don't see the problem here when we're are getting solid stuff either way. (also remember, that they are producing a product for what is considered mainstream in Japan)

[DragonBallFan8001]

I think it's unfair to say Tate's art is bad. It's very expressive. The reason he draws the characters so differently is because this way they can express the motion and emotion he is trying to create.

For example, in this image you can see how Goku is forcefully knocked backwards, as his body bends.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


This next image shows Goku getting kicked back in a pose that just feels like he's ready to do a backflip at any moment. This pose was also used in Episode 38, in which he managed to land on his feet, and here at first it looks like he's going to manage that as well, but then he falls to the ground, making his struggle feel real, as it felt like he was trying to recover from the kick in mid-air, but couldn't.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


Dragon Ball Super isn't the only show where amazing loose and expressive animation gets misunderstood, however. Naruto Shippuden episode 167 also gets a bad rep, despite being the most well animated episode in the entire series. This scene especially gets a lot of hate, despite being incredibly expressive.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]


Tate's debris animation in the preview of episode 72 reminds me of the debris in that scene from Naruto Shippuden as well.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


It's a shame that loose animation like this gets so much hate. In this scene (also from Naruto Shippuden episode 167) Pain's legs turn into smears to convey how fast he is running, and even the water itself turns into smears at certain points of the scene.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Edit: What a coincidence that while I was writing this, someone else also mentioned that scene from Naruto Shippuden episode 167!

[JazzMazz]

I think it's unfair to say Tate's art is bad. It's very expressive. The reason he draws the characters so differently is because this way they can express the motion and emotion he is trying to create.

For example, in this image you can see how Goku is forcefully knocked backwards, as his body bends.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


This next image shows Goku getting kicked back in a pose that just feels like he's ready to do a backflip at any moment. This pose was also used in Episode 38, in which he managed to land on his feet, and here at first it looks like he's going to manage that as well, but then he falls to the ground, making his struggle feel real, as it felt like he was trying to recover from the kick in mid-air, but couldn't.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


Dragon Ball Super isn't the only show where amazing loose and expressive animation gets misunderstood, however. Naruto Shippuden episode 167 also gets a bad rep, despite being the most well animated episode in the entire series. This scene especially gets a lot of hate, despite being incredibly expressive.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]


Tate's debris animation in the preview of episode 72 reminds me of the debris in that scene from Naruto Shippuden as well.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


It's a shame that loose animation like this gets so much hate. In this scene (also from Naruto Shippuden episode 167) Pain's legs turn into smears to convey how fast he is running, and even the water itself turns into smears at certain points of the scene.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Preach, also, I loved those debris effects in the preview, they look promising, I also made a similar connection to some of Shingo Yamashita's other work. The preview did look rough to me, but the movement more than saved it for me.

[Shuby]

I think it's unfair to say Tate's art is bad. It's very expressive. The reason he draws the characters so differently is because this way they can express the motion and emotion he is trying to create.


Edit: What a coincidence that while I was writing this, someone else also mentioned that scene from Naruto Shippuden episode 167!

Those Naruto Shippuden scenes look cool as shit. People were bashing it becaues the manga looked way on model perhaps? Or because it was hyped as hell for a long time ago and fans expected more on model look i think.
Though i am for being expressive, there is a thing as going to far, characters looking horribly off-model.

[DragonBallFan8001]

Preach, also, I loved those debris effects in the preview, they look promising, I also made a similar connection to some of Shingo Yamashita's other work.

Oh, that scene you linked was also animated by Shingo Yamashita? That's nice! I didn't know that. They do look very similar in style in retrospect.

[Shuby]

Serious did you really issued a warning because i disliked Tate or thought people are blindly liking his work? Way to go Ajay.

[JazzMazz]

I think it's unfair to say Tate's art is bad. It's very expressive. The reason he draws the characters so differently is because this way they can express the motion and emotion he is trying to create.


Edit: What a coincidence that while I was writing this, someone else also mentioned that scene from Naruto Shippuden episode 167!

Those Naruto Shippuden scenes look cool as shit. People were bashing it becaues the manga looked way on model perhaps? Or because it was hyped as hell for a long time ago and fans expected more on model look i think.
Though i am for being expressive, there is a thing as going to far, characters looking horribly off-model.

I think rough would be a little better way of expressing the art being under-detailed.

[Mazingerdestro]

I hate how some people are unable to have a dialogue without having their opinions always accepted as the "one and only" truth.

Guys if you want your opinions to be always right don't come to a forum, open a blog and ban people who don't accept you by calling them haters.

The beauty of a dialogue is to compare and contrast without having to insult or use insults to prove a point. Also help others learn more and not make them feel "defeated".

Too much love and at the same time hate for certain people. (I am not gonna comment on some ignorant responses)

Can't we just all enjoy the series and talk about it without constantly trying to "one up" the other person?

I personally would love if Tate's cuts come next week and look beautiful while the NEP included some parts before they were corrected and Lord Tate would be like "yep......now feel my Tateness"

[Shuby]

At least Yamashita work is expressive as hell but characters still look on-model
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/15233
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/7977

and then Tate's work also expressive but off-model
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/24227

See the difference?