Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you have any proof from the manga?

Like I mentioned in the previous page and got completely ignored, SSJB Vegeta hit Base Goku during their training, but he just stood up afterwards still ready to fight. There's no way that would have happened if his Base were vastly weaker than in the movie and anime.

Sorry, forgot to reply to you. Like others said, it doesn't mean much. Base Goten isn't close to SS Trunks, yet the exact same thing happened in the 25th TB.

But if it turns out that there are 2 base forms, this would explain why Vegeta turned SSB instead of SS against base Goku.

Well, was Frost telling a lie when he said he had nothing but his drive left? Because that certainly sounds like he's exhausted most of his power.

Vegeta one-shotted Frost with utter ease. He probably didn't need to transform, but did so because he wanted Frost to feel all of it.

Why would he transform? It would have been more humiliating for Frost if Vegeta didn't transform at all & could still one-shot him, and we know Vegeta didn't want to display his full power just to say "fuck you, look how big I am compared to you" because he didn't turn SSB, his most powerful form.

It only further proves that base goku/vegeta need to be at ssj3 tier or only little a bit stronger for it to make sense.

But we know they are not. If we go by Toriyama's continuity, in BoG, base Goku could fight as well as he did as a SSG at full power against Beerus, and Beerus said that his power didn't fall significantly. There was no mention in FnF that he lost any power, and in the FnF manga (which was supervised by Toriyama like the Super manga), it was shown that base Goku was at SSG level. If we go by the anime continuity, base Goku is 50 times weaker than SSG, and he was strong enough to force Beerus to put much more effort in their fight than he did against SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, or Enraged SS2 Vegeta. If we go by the Super manga continuity, so far there is no indication that Goku has absorbed any of SSG power in his base & SS forms.

Sure Frost would lie to look good and keep his fake goodness, either that or Frost was just saving his stamina for further battles and only wanted to go at Picoolo with minimal advantage, in other words he understimated him. Also it could be just combination of fake goodness and saving up stamina, or maybe Frost was using only minimal power for his stamina to restore so he could have chance against other fighters.

Piccolo managed to make Frost even more tired than he was at the beginning of their fight. There is no way Frost was holding back.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He didn't need to turn Super Saiyan Blue to get the point across because Super Saiyan was enough. Why would Vegeta transform if he was already capable of tapping into even more power in Base? That doesn't really make much sense. If he really needed to turn Super Saiyan, that would actually put Frost above their Saiyan Beyond God levels.

[Bullza]

Again, we've seen changes & omissions have already happened

Small changes, nothing significant and it's understandable why there's changes. The omissions in the Battle of Gods arc were simply a matter of the arc being rushed and there not being time to fit everything into one chapter.

so how can you be so sure that base Goku vs FF Freeza happened?

Because that is how it happened in the story that the writer of the manga is assuming that you are familiar with. If the readers are familiar with that story and they are going to have that story in mind as what happened between the BoG and U6 arc of the manga then it makes zero sense for the writer to have his U6 act as a continuation of an RoF story that is completely different from the one everyone is familiar with.

He complained about Frost fighting in his Final Form, so he wanted him to revert back to a previous form.

Yeah so it could have been his first form. So he doesn't have to be as strong as Frost in his Third Form. He could be as strong as him in his first form.

If Frost is anywhere near base Goku with SSG powers, Piccolo wouldn't be able to run away at all.

But going by the anime (and so surely the manga aswell) it's SSJ Goku who has SSJG powers and Frost isn't anywhere near him and then he was weakened from fighting Goku and Piccolo still didn't stand a chance.

They said Piccolo had no chance of winning so what more needed to be said?

[ssbgoku]

It only further proves that base goku/vegeta need to be at ssj3 tier or only little a bit stronger for it to make sense.

But we know they are not. If we go by Toriyama's continuity, in BoG, base Goku could fight as well as he did as a SSG at full power against Beerus, and Beerus said that his power didn't fall significantly. There was no mention in FnF that he lost any power, and in the FnF manga (which was supervised by Toriyama like the Super manga), it was shown that base Goku was at SSG level. If we go by the anime continuity, base Goku is 50 times weaker than SSG, and he was strong enough to force Beerus to put much more effort in their fight than he did against SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, or Enraged SS2 Vegeta. If we go by the Super manga continuity, so far there is no indication that Goku has absorbed any of SSG power in his base & SS forms.

Sure Frost would lie to look good and keep his fake goodness, either that or Frost was just saving his stamina for further battles and only wanted to go at Picoolo with minimal advantage, in other words he understimated him. Also it could be just combination of fake goodness and saving up stamina, or maybe Frost was using only minimal power for his stamina to restore so he could have chance against other fighters.

Piccolo managed to make Frost even more tired than he was at the beginning of their fight. There is no way Frost was holding back.

Valid points, but it is all only the past, and Akira is known well for rectonns, hell he even admited himself that he tend to forget anything what happened in the past. Well although it is hard to say, it could be that case. We just need to accept retconn if everythings point for it to happening and even fitting with everything else. It is much better then keeping bog goku absorbing god power stuff, it just need to be forgotten as people seem easily to forgot god scale and say it was retconn so why not with absorbing ssg power by goku.

Yeah You can tell that it could be bad writting from Akira, but still it would count. Also with ssj being ssg, it is not possible in any way or form as base goku would need to be at least 10% of ssj vegito, as 8% of ssj vegito multplied by 50 would only reach ssj3 vegitto level which according to beerus fanboys and ssg fanboys is much below it. Even if I went with my way, ssj3 vegito would be close to ssg...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Even if you were to retcon the idea of Goku merging with the God Power, his Base still ends up way stronger before training with Whis.

-There's Goku's statement to Vegeta when arriving on Beers' world. That shows Vegeta has reached a new level of power and can sense the Gods.
-Goku and Vegeta train with Whis for a couple months. Beers says that they had gotten much stronger and tells Whis to send them to that special room when they decline his challenge. They seemingly grew in power from being in that room surrounded by God Power.
-Everyone's reaction to Final Form Freeza's power, showing that he's on a whole new level compared to what they've faced up to that point. Goku is Freeza's equal.
-After sparring with Goku for a while in the rosat, Base Vegeta said he could feel his improvement in power and was even more excited to fight in the U6 tournament.

None of the above makes much sense if they're Super Saiyan 3 tier or less. They have to be beyond it.

[ssbgoku]

Even if you were to retcon the idea of Goku merging with the God Power, his Base still ends up way stronger before training with Whis.

-There's Goku's statement to Vegeta when arriving on Beers' world. That shows Vegeta has reached a new level of power and can sense the Gods.
-Goku and Vegeta train with Whis for a couple months. Beers says that they had gotten much stronger and tells Whis to send them to that special room when they decline his challenge. They seemingly grew in power from being in that room surrounded by God Power.
-Everyone's reaction to Final Form Freeza's power, showing that he's on a whole new level compared to what they've faced up to that point. Goku is Freeza's equal.
-After sparring with Goku for a while in the rosat, Base Vegeta said he could feel his improvement in power and was even more excited to fight in the U6 tournament.

None of the above makes much sense if they're Super Saiyan 3 tier or less. They have to be beyond it.

Another good and valid points.

- Hmm, good point, still ability to sense the Gods was never connected directly to just being pure strong, It maybe be special ability along with great power so ssj3 would fit into that, and even if not then ultimate gohan is at the best where they were at that time.
- Yeah, they became much stronger then before, however It could be only refference to them being finally able to enter entire new level of power as ssb. Notice that only after spending time in this room in anime both goku and vegeta were shown being able to transform in ssb.
- Yeah, but keep in mind the greatest ki they felt was enraged/mutation ssj2 vegeta. This means final form frieeza would be around ultimate gohan level.
- Correct, well if we have to consider all of them then I see them around buutenks power in base at the most.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

-I think being a God was what required you to sense other divine beings. While that's one way, getting way stronger seems to be the other way. Whis told the Oracle Fish that both Goku and Vegeta have just reached a level where they could now sense Gods.

-I guess it comes down to what you think Beers was basing his comparison on when he said they were much stronger. He woke up when they were training and had no idea Vegeta was already there for six months. He apparently kept up with their training since waking up, so he probably did see them turn Super Saiyan Blue and was just talking about that like you said.

-There's also Goku and Vegeta's reaction, though. I'm not sure how much weaker you think Gohan had gotten, but he even seemed a bit surprised that he couldn't tap into his Ultimate form to fight Ginyu. That tells me that he slacked, but not to the point where he lost most of his power. If Gohan thought tapping into his Ultimate form wouldn't be enough to handle First Form Freeza, then his Final Form would have to be way above Ultimate Gohan's best.

-That's a fair level. I just feel anything well beyond Super Saiyan 3 makes the most sense. I personally have them way above that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He didn't need to turn Super Saiyan Blue to get the point across because Super Saiyan was enough. Why would Vegeta transform if he was already capable of tapping into even more power in Base? That doesn't really make much sense. If he really needed to turn Super Saiyan, that would actually put Frost above their Saiyan Beyond God levels.

Vegeta used the form he needed, nothing more than that. It wouldn't make sense for him to use it at all if he didn't need it.

Small changes, nothing significant and it's understandable why there's changes. The omissions in the Battle of Gods arc were simply a matter of the arc being rushed and there not being time to fit everything into one chapter.

They still had enough space to say that Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, yet that never happened.

Because that is how it happened in the story that the writer of the manga is assuming that you are familiar with. If the readers are familiar with that story and they are going to have that story in mind as what happened between the BoG and U6 arc of the manga then it makes zero sense for the writer to have his U6 act as a continuation of an RoF story that is completely different from the one everyone is familiar with.

Base Goku vs FF Freeza isn't an important part of the story, so you can't tell for sure it happened since we never saw how FnF happened in the Super continuity. If the events happened like in the FnF movie/manga, then the only explanation is that there are 2 base forms, since we see that Super Saiyan make Goku & Vegeta much stronger.

Yeah so it could have been his first form. So he doesn't have to be as strong as Frost in his Third Form. He could be as strong as him in his first form.

Again, Piccolo could cause trouble against a tired Final Form Frost, and Vegeta had to turn SS against an even more tired Frost, while base Goku & Vegeta were probably stronger than 3rd Form Frost. Piccolo isn't that far from Final Form Frost.

But going by the anime (and so surely the manga aswell) it's SSJ Goku who has SSJG powers and Frost isn't anywhere near him and then he was weakened from fighting Goku and Piccolo still didn't stand a chance.

The anime is doing its own thing. I'm talking about the manga.

They said Piccolo had no chance of winning so what more needed to be said?

Goku still judged him strong enough to weaken him at least for Vegeta, which he proved to be capable of, so he wasn't that much weaker.

Valid points, but it is all only the past

It's not the past, it was 2 weeks ago in the anime that Beerus fought with base Goku and had to put more effort than he did against SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, and Enraged SS2 Vegeta.

Even if you were to retcon the idea of Goku merging with the God Power, his Base still ends up way stronger before training with Whis.

-There's Goku's statement to Vegeta when arriving on Beers' world. That shows Vegeta has reached a new level of power and can sense the Gods.
-Goku and Vegeta train with Whis for a couple months. Beers says that they had gotten much stronger and tells Whis to send them to that special room when they decline his challenge. They seemingly grew in power from being in that room surrounded by God Power.
-Everyone's reaction to Final Form Freeza's power, showing that he's on a whole new level compared to what they've faced up to that point. Goku is Freeza's equal.
-After sparring with Goku for a while in the rosat, Base Vegeta said he could feel his improvement in power and was even more excited to fight in the U6 tournament.

None of the above makes much sense if they're Super Saiyan 3 tier or less. They have to be beyond it.

Anime-only. I am talking about the manga. So far in the manga, there are zero indications that Goku or Vegeta have any of the SSG power in their base/SS forms, and everything so far points at them being at their regular levels. Either Toriyama retconned Goku absorbing the SSG power from the movies, or we will later find out that Goku & Vegeta have 2 base forms (base & base with SSG power) & 2 regular SS forms (regular golden SS & SSB).

In the anime, Goku & Vegeta definitely have SSG power in their base forms, but only 1/50th apparently.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta used the form he needed, nothing more than that. It wouldn't make sense for him to use it at all if he didn't need it.

If you think Piccolo is close to Frost in power, then Base Vegeta being above Frost is a given.

Anime-only. I am talking about the manga. So far in the manga, there are zero indications that Goku or Vegeta have any of the SSG power in their base/SS forms, and everything so far points at them being at their regular levels. Either Toriyama retconned Goku absorbing the SSG power from the movies, or we will later find out that Goku & Vegeta have 2 base forms (base & base with SSG power) & 2 regular SS forms (regular golden SS & SSB).

Oh, you were talking about the manga. Never mind, then.

[ssbgoku]

-I think being a God was what required you to sense other divine beings. While that's one way, getting way stronger seems to be the other way. Whis told the Oracle Fish that both Goku and Vegeta have just reached a level where they could now sense Gods.

-I guess it comes down to what you think Beers was basing his comparison on when he said they were much stronger. He woke up when they were training and had no idea Vegeta was already there for six months. He apparently kept up with their training since waking up, so he probably did see them turn Super Saiyan Blue and was just talking about that like you said.

-There's also Goku and Vegeta's reaction, though. I'm not sure how much weaker you think Gohan had gotten, but he even seemed a bit surprised that he couldn't tap into his Ultimate form to fight Ginyu. That tells me that he slacked, but not to the point where he lost most of his power. If Gohan thought tapping into his Ultimate form wouldn't be enough to handle First Form Freeza, then his Final Form would have to be way above Ultimate Gohan's best.

-That's a fair level. I just feel anything well beyond Super Saiyan 3 makes the most sense. I personally have them way above that.

Well you are correct about being god to do that. However it doesn't need only about pure power, it could be skill or some dormant ability which could be awoken even at ss3 goku level. Also there is not proof that frieeza could feel goku's power or how he judged him. Another interpration would be goku and vegeta tapping into divine ki which boosted their base form a lot and that what was needed for them to barerly sense Gods.

- Yeah sure, that is exactly where our opinions can differ. I believe Beerus comment is definietly about ssb.
- Sure of course, well for me gohan got a lot weaker where at the best he was ssj2 tier from buu arc and at the lowest would be super perfect cell if picoolo didn't get any weaker on his own too... I mean at the worst I can see Picoolo back to Imperfect Cell level and ssj gohan equal to cell arc kid gohan mssj.
- Thanks, I am curious why you would put them even more above but I can go with it eventually although it is more or less impled for them to be super buu tier at least. like:

Base goku/vegeta:
before whis training together - ssj3 goku tier or Mr buu tier
after whis training , before whis's staff - ssj2 gotenks tier
after whis's staff - ssj 3 gotenks /super buu
after 3 years in Rosat - ultimate gohan buu arc >=them> buttenks

If we take base goku/vegeta after Rosat like buu arc ultimate gohan level. Then Picoolo being let's say buu arc ssj2 tier after training, would be around 10 times weaker then base goku and vegeta, so final form frost would be need to be around 10% against Picoolo. Even if Picoolo would be Just below Mr buu tier then 8 times weaker is at the best he can go.

Valid points, but it is all only the past

It's not the past, it was 2 weeks ago in the anime that Beerus fought with base Goku and had to put more effort than he did against SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, and Enraged SS2 Vegeta.

Valid point once again, however I was only reffering to bog arc in dbs. The last battle of beerus and goku can easily fall under advertisment and pure hype along with filler stuff. The feats presented by both beerus and goku in last episode was average for buu arc, so I would guess beerus was holding vast amunt of power possibly as against utlimate gohan and Mr.Buu maybe a bit more but still below 10% of his power which was needed to one shot rage vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If you think Piccolo is close to Frost in power, then Base Vegeta being above Frost is a given.

Not necessarily. Before Super Saiyan God, Piccolo was stronger than the base Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyans. It seems that the same is still true in Super as well.

Valid point once again, however I was only reffering to bog arc in dbs. The last battle of beerus and goku can easily fall under advertisment and pure hype along with filler stuff. The feats presented by both beerus and goku in last episode was average for buu arc, so I would guess beerus was holding vast amunt of power possibly as against utlimate gohan and Mr.Buu maybe a bit more but still below 10% of his power which was needed to one shot rage vegeta.

Beerus didn't visibly power-up against SS3 Goku or the rest of the Z-Fighters in Super, while he visibly powered-up against base Goku in that episode. He had definitely put more effort than before.

[ssbgoku]

Valid point once again, however I was only reffering to bog arc in dbs. The last battle of beerus and goku can easily fall under advertisment and pure hype along with filler stuff. The feats presented by both beerus and goku in last episode was average for buu arc, so I would guess beerus was holding vast amunt of power possibly as against utlimate gohan and Mr.Buu maybe a bit more but still below 10% of his power which was needed to one shot rage vegeta.

Beerus didn't visibly power-up against SS3 Goku or the rest of the Z-Fighters in Super, while he visibly powered-up against base Goku in that episode. He had definitely put more effort than before.

Honestly I just rewatched ssj3 goku vs beerus battle in super and Beerus was smilling it seems like he enjoyed it a bit even if he changed your mind later on. Also strangely beerus decided to dodge then tank last goku ssj3 full power kamehameha. Also he was forced to block punches with one hand same with base goku in last episode but against ssj3 goku beerus didn't wear any strange costume so I am not sure... Of course base goku is supperior but I don't see bigger gap then between ssj3 goku and ssj3 gotenks at the most...

Visibly powering up means nothing in beerus' s case as it was only for show as against ssg goku otherwise kaioken ssb would be above beerus by raw power if we don't explain it with kaioken multiplyng only base and adding to ssb. Beerus lied a lot of time, also his fun with goku could be just based on potential how more powerfull goku is then before, aka still can go ssj and top of that ssb even adding kaioken...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not necessarily. Before Super Saiyan God, Piccolo was stronger than the base Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyans. It seems that the same is still true in Super as well.

In the manga, right? Because Gohan is stated to be the strongest of the Earthlings before Freeza is aware he can transform. That's why Gohan tries to take on Ginyu himself while telling Piccolo to stay back, though this was before he realized he couldn't become Ultimate. Base Vegeta also blows Ginyu away with ease and the much weaker Tagoma made a joke of Piccolo.

[Bullza]

They still had enough space to say that Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, yet that never happened.

From when the fight ended there were only 2 pages until they took off.

Base Goku vs FF Freeza isn't an important part of the story, so you can't tell for sure it happened since we never saw how FnF happened in the Super continuity.

It doesn't matter. That's what happened in the story, that's what readers remember from the story, it's going to be written with it in mind that that happened.

Again, Piccolo could cause trouble against a tired Final Form Frost

By using strategy and fighting defensively causing Frost to miss, waste energy and frustrate him, that's all. He never hit him and he never hurt him. All he did was fly around while Frost stood there like a fool blasting away at him then he evaded Piccolo's stretchy arm.

The anime is doing its own thing. I'm talking about the manga.

They're doing the exact same thing which is taking Toriyama's plot outline and adapting it into a product. The power structure will remain the same between both versions.

Goku still judged him strong enough to weaken him at least for Vegeta, which he proved to be capable of, so he wasn't that much weaker.

If he wasn't that much weaker then he wouldn't have said he had zero chance of winning nor would Piccolo openly comment about not wanting to fight him in that form.

If readers have it in their mind that Base Goku is as strong or stronger than Frieza because of the movie or the anime then obviously people will still think he is of a similiar level of power while reading the U6 arc. The writer would be aware of that also so he's not going to have a different continuity that plays out differently from what everyone is familiar with.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the manga, right? Because Gohan is stated to be the strongest of the Earthlings before Freeza is aware he can transform. That's why Gohan tries to take on Ginyu himself while telling Piccolo to stay back, though this was before he realized he couldn't become Ultimate. Base Vegeta also blows Ginyu away with ease and the much weaker Tagoma made a joke of Piccolo.

FnF Gohan doesn't count as a regular Saiyan, since he hasn't lost all of his Ultimate power, apparently. Regular Saiyans are weaker than Freeza from Namek, who is much weaker than Piccolo.

It doesn't matter. That's what happened in the story, that's what readers remember from the story, it's going to be written with it in mind that that happened.

Again, do you have any proof that the events in the Super manga continuity definitely happened as we've seen them?

By using strategy and fighting defensively causing Frost to miss, waste energy and frustrate him, that's all. He never hit him and he never hurt him. All he did was fly around while Frost stood there like a fool blasting away at him then he evaded Piccolo's stretchy arm.

Do you think Piccolo would have been able to do the same to guys like Super Perfect Cell, Majin Boo, or Super Vegetto?

They're doing the exact same thing which is taking Toriyama's plot outline and adapting it into a product. The power structure will remain the same between both versions.

In the manga, Frost is weaker than Freeza after his training according to Goku. The anime doesn't have that line. Piccolo is also potentially stronger in the anime, since he trained with Gohan. So, until proven otherwise, you can't state for a fact that the power structure is the same, especially when it has already changed once between the anime & the movies.

If he wasn't that much weaker then he wouldn't have said he had zero chance of winning nor would Piccolo openly comment about not wanting to fight him in that form.

He had a chance to weaken him for Vegeta, which is why Piccolo fought.

If readers have it in their mind that Base Goku is as strong or stronger than Frieza because of the movie or the anime then obviously people will still think he is of a similiar level of power while reading the U6 arc. The writer would be aware of that also so he's not going to have a different continuity that plays out differently from what everyone is familiar with.

But the thing is, the Super manga is supposed to be its own thing, and the FnF arc isn't necessary to the story. It is written with the assumption that the readers haven't seen the movies or the anime, or else it would have started with the U6 arc.

Don't get me wrong, I actually believe that both BoG & FnF movies happened as they are in the Super manga continuity, and the BoG arc of the manga works as a recap/promotion for the anime, and I believe that the 2 base theories will turn out to be true. But until that is confirmed, or we see more evidence that the power structure in the manga is the same as in the anime, the facts are facts.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

FnF Gohan doesn't count as a regular Saiyan, since he hasn't lost all of his Ultimate power, apparently. Regular Saiyans are weaker than Freeza from Namek, who is much weaker than Piccolo.

Well, Goku (Post BoG) and Vegeta aren't regular Saiyans after training with Whis, so they'd be above Piccolo as well.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

FnF Gohan doesn't count as a regular Saiyan, since he hasn't lost all of his Ultimate power, apparently. Regular Saiyans are weaker than Freeza from Namek, who is much weaker than Piccolo.

Well, Goku (Post BoG) and Vegeta aren't regular Saiyans after training with Whis, so they'd be above Piccolo as well.

I'm talking about regular regular Saiyans, no Ultimate or Super Saiyan God power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So basically, Base Goku before absorbing the God Power and Base Vegeta before training with Whis?

I can admit Base Gohan is a special case, since his Super Saiyan form doesn't even work the same anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

I think he is trying to bring to the current discussion the idea that, since Piccolo was between Regular and Super Saiyan back on the Boo Arc, it could be the same here.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So basically, Base Goku before absorbing the God Power and Base Vegeta before training with Whis?

I can admit Base Gohan is a special case, since his Super Saiyan form doesn't even work the same anymore.

Yes. Base Goku was weaker than Freeza in the beginning of BoG, and Piccolo at that point was much, much stronger than Freeza. Piccolo was weaker than the Super Saiyans in the Cell Games, and since he hasn't done any significant training since then (he didn't even try to enter inside the RoSaT for a 2nd day), nor did he get any comments about his power, I don't think he had reached their level in Boo arc, BoG, or FnF. In U6 of the manga, he is still between base & SS Goku and he is treated as weaker than Majin Boo, Frost is stated to be weaker than FnF Freeza (but obviously stronger than Namek arc Freeza, since he is stronger than Piccolo), and there is no comment about Goku absorbing any of of the SSG power anywhere in the manga so far. I don't think it's a coincidence.