Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Captain Space]

I mean, my reasoning for the base saiyans having surpassed Freeza and significantly closed the gap between base and SSJ was more along the lines of stuff like:

-None of the saiyans having a problem with not transforming despite entering a tournament against the likes of #18 and Piccolo

-Dabura and Babidi considering Piccolo weaker than the saiyans despite not knowing about SSJ (and when they do see it, being surprised by both its existence and its power)

-The estimate that the three base saiyans' energy will fill the remaining half of the energy meter (when it took SSJ2 Gohan to fill the first half)

-Goku's SSJ form being less than four times as much kili/kiri as his base form (taking him from somewhere near 800 up to 3,000) (not that that scale has to scale linearly with the earlier BP system or anything, just that the main implication is that Goku's base is a significant chunk of his SSJ power)

-Kaioshin thinking Yakon was a big deal, then Goku handling it in base (this one's debatable, maybe he just thought they couldn't handle it but he could, but I didn't get that impression)

Of course, that's the Buu saga, written back in the 90s, maybe the writers have changed their minds since.

[LightBing]

I mean, my reasoning for the base saiyans having surpassed Freeza and significantly closed the gap between base and SSJ was more along the lines of stuff like:

-None of the saiyans having a problem with not transforming despite entering a tournament against the likes of #18 and Piccolo

-Dabura and Babidi considering Piccolo weaker than the saiyans despite not knowing about SSJ (and when they do see it, being surprised by both its existence and its power)

-The estimate that the three base saiyans' energy will fill the remaining half of the energy meter (when it took SSJ2 Gohan to fill the first half)

-Goku's SSJ form being less than four times as much kili/kiri as his base form (taking him from somewhere near 800 up to 3,000) (not that that scale has to scale linearly with the earlier BP system or anything, just that the main implication is that Goku's base is a significant chunk of his SSJ power)

-Kaioshin thinking Yakon was a big deal, then Goku handling it in base (this one's debatable, maybe he just thought they couldn't handle it but he could, but I didn't get that impression)

Of course, that's the Buu saga, written back in the 90s, maybe the writers have changed their minds since.

Most of those arguments can be debunked.

1-This one I cannot justify.

2/3- Dabra and Babidi are wrong in their calculations. They believed Pocus and Yakon would defeat the warriors, that shouldn't be possible if they are as a group SSJ2 level.

4- Well, this one is up to to discussion. How do kiris work? How much did Goku power up as a Super Saiyan, we know he can control SSJ output.

5- Kaioshin doesn't know how to correctly determine a person's power: he felt literally Gohan's SSJ2 power, before Yakon appeared Vegeta and Goku were downplaying Dabra, and in the same panel you mention Gohan tells Kaioshin that his father can handle it. After Goku finishes off Yakon, he realizes(finally) the power of a Super Saiyan. Here are the quotes:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

[Captain Space]

Most of those arguments can be debunked.

1-This one I cannot justify.

2/3- Dabra and Babidi are wrong in their calculations. They believed Pocus and Yakon would defeat the warriors, that shouldn't be possible if they are as a group SSJ2 level.

4- Well, this one is up to to discussion. How do kiris work? How much did Goku power up as a Super Saiyan, we know he can control SSJ output.

5- Kaioshin doesn't know how to correctly determine a person's power: he felt literally Gohan's SSJ2 power, before Yakon appeared Vegeta and Goku were downplaying Dabra, and in the same panel you mention Gohan tells Kaioshin that his father can handle it. After Goku finishes off Yakon, he realizes(finally) the power of a Super Saiyan.

2/3- Fair enough on 3, conceded, but for 2, that wouldn't explain Dabura thinking Piccolo was weaker than the saiyans unless he actually was. They did not know about SSJ. They did not know how powerful it was. All they knew about was their base forms. And they thought Piccolo was weaker than the saiyans. Like with Beerus' line in BoG, authorial intent--the purpose of this is to say "the weakest ones in this group are Piccolo and Kibito, and maybe Kaioshin but Babidi tells Dabura to leave him for now". Hell, the fact that Babidi even has to specify to leave Kaioshin could imply that had he not said that Kaioshin'd have been killed, meaning he's weaker than the base saiyans too.

4- True, but given that he needed SSJ2 to asplode Yakon (and went straight to it basically, the second time around), presumably he was at full SSJ power up until then. And as for how kiri/kili work, we indeed don't know, but one of the only clear things they ever imply is that base Goku is a good chunk of SSJ Goku, based on the two readings given in that scene.

5-Fair point, but I still got the impression that Yakon was stronger than Kaioshin (and Goku was definitely at least on Yakon's level if not stronger in base). Still, that's up for interpretation so I guess I can't claim this as evidence. (Although, to be fair, after the fight Kaioshin wasn't like "Yakon wasn't to terrible after all!" He was just like, "Wow, the saiyans are really incredible!" Which would seem to suggest he wasn't wrong about being intimidated by Yakon. Although although this is still tenuous because maybe he was just worried for them, not himself.)

[LightBing]

Most of those arguments can be debunked.

1-This one I cannot justify.

2/3- Dabra and Babidi are wrong in their calculations. They believed Pocus and Yakon would defeat the warriors, that shouldn't be possible if they are as a group SSJ2 level.

4- Well, this one is up to to discussion. How do kiris work? How much did Goku power up as a Super Saiyan, we know he can control SSJ output.

5- Kaioshin doesn't know how to correctly determine a person's power: he felt literally Gohan's SSJ2 power, before Yakon appeared Vegeta and Goku were downplaying Dabra, and in the same panel you mention Gohan tells Kaioshin that his father can handle it. After Goku finishes off Yakon, he realizes(finally) the power of a Super Saiyan.

2/3- Fair enough on 3, conceded, but for 2, that wouldn't explain Dabura thinking Piccolo was weaker than the saiyans unless he actually was. They did not know about SSJ. They did not know how powerful it was. All they knew about was their base forms. And they thought Piccolo was weaker than the saiyans. Like with Beerus' line in BoG, authorial intent--the purpose of this is to say "the weakest ones in this group are Piccolo and Kibito, and maybe Kaioshin but Babidi tells Dabura to leave him for now". Hell, the fact that Babidi even has to specify to leave Kaioshin could imply that had he not said that Kaioshin'd have been killed, meaning he's weaker than the base saiyans too.

4- True, but given that he needed SSJ2 to asplode Yakon (and went straight to it basically, the second time around), presumably he was at full SSJ power up until then. And as for how kiri/kili work, we indeed don't know, but one of the only clear things they ever imply is that base Goku is a good chunk of SSJ Goku, based on the two readings given in that scene.

5-Fair point, but I still got the impression that Yakon was stronger than Kaioshin (and Goku was definitely at least on Yakon's level if not stronger in base). Still, that's up for interpretation so I guess I can't claim this as evidence. (Although, to be fair, after the fight Kaioshin wasn't like "Yakon wasn't to terrible after all!" He was just like, "Wow, the saiyans are really incredible!" Which would seem to suggest he wasn't wrong about being intimidated by Yakon. Although although this is still tenuous because maybe he was just worried for them, not himself.)

2-Weren't they hiding their ki?It makes sense for them to think Pocus would wipe them out if Goku was at 5000,Vegeta 15000, Gohan 5000 and the rest below that. This part is just so full of inconsistencies that is hard to pin point the argument. But Dabra and Babidi being awful judges of powers, kinda works all-around.

4-Depends, SSJ2 felt like the final hit to burst him quickly. Goku could have let him eat SSJ light for 10 minutes until he gave in. Out of Universe; the numbers are probably without logic. If you read the power level section of the website, the numbers 800 and 3000 have meaning in the Japan. In universe; the lack of knowledge of how kiri works is the best I can do, with explaining this part.

[ZombieVito]

Dabura and Babidi can't sense Ki.

[Captain Space]

2-Weren't they hiding their ki?It makes sense for them to think Pocus would wipe them out if Goku was at 5000,Vegeta 15000, Gohan 5000 and the rest below that. This part is just so full of inconsistencies that is hard to pin point the argument. But Dabra and Babidi being awful judges of powers, kinda works all-around.

4-Depends, SSJ2 felt like the final hit to burst him quickly. Goku could have let him eat SSJ light for 10 minutes until he gave in. Out of Universe; the numbers are probably without logic. If you read the power level section of the website, the numbers 800 and 3000 have meaning in the Japan. In universe; the lack of knowledge of how kiri works is the best I can do, with explaining this part.

2. I mean...I guess?

4. It's pretty quick in the manga, isn't it? Like, there's only one or two panels of his power being drained in the second attempt before he goes into SSJ2. And ah, I forgot that about the culturally-significant numbers. Still though, it seems fairly obvious and I hardly think Toriyama thought of anything like "Well, I'll make this scale non-linear so Goku's base is still way below his SSJ despite the numbers being pretty close together".

I mean, this all still leaves some of my points at "eh, maybe? Kind of unclear? Could be either way?" and one of them at so far unopposed...would you say it's a fair conclusion that on balance, the general stance in the early 90s and the general stance now, on the saiyans' base power, seems to be different in terms of the way the writers are thinking about it? (I mean, if the answer to this question is "no" that's fine, I just still think the Buu saga at least implies that the general idea was "base saiyans are hella strong...how strong? Eh...uh...well..." and then the new BoG/etc. stuff made a sort of attempt to rein that back in and nail down exactly where it thinks they are.)

Dabura and Babidi can't sense Ki.

I'd be highly surprised if Dabura couldn't at all. Otherwise I'd have to wonder where he even gets the assumption that any given person is stronger than another. Also, magical demon king.

[ZombieVito]

Seriously....?

Majin Buu powered up in front of Dabura and he didn't even noticed.... Gohan even freaked out at the power up.

Babidi also didn't see a difference at all when Goku showed him the SSJ transformations.

They can't feel Ki.

[supercat]

I mean, my reasoning for the base saiyans having surpassed Freeza and significantly closed the gap between base and SSJ was more along the lines of stuff like:

-None of the saiyans having a problem with not transforming despite entering a tournament against the likes of #18 and Piccolo

-Dabura and Babidi considering Piccolo weaker than the saiyans despite not knowing about SSJ (and when they do see it, being surprised by both its existence and its power)

-The estimate that the three base saiyans' energy will fill the remaining half of the energy meter (when it took SSJ2 Gohan to fill the first half)

-Goku's SSJ form being less than four times as much kili/kiri as his base form (taking him from somewhere near 800 up to 3,000) (not that that scale has to scale linearly with the earlier BP system or anything, just that the main implication is that Goku's base is a significant chunk of his SSJ power)

-Kaioshin thinking Yakon was a big deal, then Goku handling it in base (this one's debatable, maybe he just thought they couldn't handle it but he could, but I didn't get that impression)

Of course, that's the Buu saga, written back in the 90s, maybe the writers have changed their minds since.

-If your logic actually holds any truth, that would mean that the base Saiyans have surpassed Piccolo sometime after Cell's defeat. Buu arc Piccolo is probably in line with Perfect Cell (heavily suppressed), and I simply cannot envision any base Saiyan reaching that realm of power even by the events of Super.

-All fighters were suppressed on the cliff when they were spying on the band of Majins, so Babidi was most likely sensing their dormant energy. It makes zero sense for the wizard to marvel at the actual power that was emanating from the cliff, as each fighter likely had their power levels drastically pushed down.

-Again, Babidi was probably referring to the trio's latent power. Whether they go Super Saiyan or not, that power still belongs to them, and it doesn't have to physically manifest itself as a golden aura for him to deem it as a potent source of energy. In any case, both Babidi and Dabura thinking that weaklings like Pui Pui and Yakon could get the job done was enough to show that their perception was heavily skewed.

-There was probably a different algorithm that determined the kilis.

-Kaioshin expressed unnecessarily high levels of concern around anyone with an M on their forehead. After living through the traumatic experience he did, it doesn't surprise me that he would proceed with caution when in the face of a wizard who has access to the creature responsible for the death of his brethren.

Honestly, if it was explicitly stated by a canon character in a canon film that even after the Buu arc, Base Goku still falls short of Frieza, I'm going with it. Not sure why this is such a hard notion to accept.

[Truhan]

Piccolo could have used suppression. He lowered his Ki to the point of passing by as weaker. Also, I think there's a misconception that Goku went SSJ2 against Yakon, unless stated otherwise. He could have fully powered up his SSJ to kill him, hence Dabura knowing nothing beyond that level (and because I believe Gohan faced him as a FPSSJ). Ultimately, they're MSSJ, with the ability to increase their Ki output, and those 3.000 Kiri were perhaps a reference to Goku's power level against Freeza. If we make him 10 times stronger in the Buu saga, and then use the SSJ multiplier, we're talking about 1.500.000, which makes Babidi's machine translate with 50 times the difference. Dabura, who had been measured with over 4.000 Kiri, could have a power level of 2.000.000, and 80 times less (a made up FPSSJ multiplier) of that is 25.000, which sets Gohan's base power lower than Goku's.

[LightBing]

I mean, this all still leaves some of my points at "eh, maybe? Kind of unclear? Could be either way?" and one of them at so far unopposed...would you say it's a fair conclusion that on balance, the general stance in the early 90s and the general stance now, on the saiyans' base power, seems to be different in terms of the way the writers are thinking about it? (I mean, if the answer to this question is "no" that's fine, I just still think the Buu saga at least implies that the general idea was "base saiyans are hella strong...how strong? Eh...uh...well..." and then the new BoG/etc. stuff made a sort of attempt to rein that back in and nail down exactly where it thinks they are.)

Honestly, I feel they should be weaker than 100% Freeza. Toriyama re-read the manga for BoG, and I believe he felt the need to clear his lazy writing during the Boo Arc, somewhat. Otherwise that line isn't necessary in the movie. He likes things simple, for children. Even following the power progression of the series, it doesn't feel right, unless we believe the SSJ multiplier is less than initially. And even this has it's flaws, during the Cell arc Goku wouldn't have mastered SSJ but increased it's base form power. We just have these little contradictions, many of them doubtful and possible refuted if he dig enough. We probably would've agreed as a fan-base that Toriyama is inconsistent and wrote out of his ass, a lot. Yet here we are, discussing details that probably didn't have enough thought put into it, or being wrong because the author forgets thing often. If he look at the general picture it makes sense that base Saiyans never reached 100%. We are just chasing out tails; hey, it's fun!

Just remenbered,I can say Vegeta is arrogant/prideful to believe himself stronger than #18 and Piccolo in base. He said before that he was the strongest in the Universe, knowing he's not.

[Captain Space]

-If your logic actually holds any truth, that would mean that the base Saiyans have surpassed Piccolo sometime after Cell's defeat. Buu arc Piccolo is probably in line with Perfect Cell (heavily suppressed), and I simply cannot envision any base Saiyan reaching that realm of power even by the events of Super.

-All fighters were suppressed on the cliff when they were spying on the band of Majins, so Babidi was most likely sensing their dormant energy. It makes zero sense for the wizard to marvel at the actual power that was emanating from the cliff, as each fighter likely had their power levels drastically pushed down.

-Again, Babidi was probably referring to the trio's latent power. Whether they go Super Saiyan or not, that power still belongs to them, and it doesn't have to physically manifest itself as a golden aura for him to deem it as a potent source of energy. In any case, both Babidi and Dabura thinking that weaklings like Pui Pui and Yakon could get the job done was enough to show that their perception was heavily skewed.

-There was probably a different algorithm that determined the kilis.

-Kaioshin expressed unnecessarily high levels of concern around anyone with an M on their forehead. After living through the traumatic experience he did, it doesn't surprise me that he would proceed with caution when in the face of a wizard who has access to the creature responsible for the death of his brethren.

Honestly, if it was explicitly stated by a canon character in a canon film that even after the Buu arc, Base Goku still falls short of Freeza, I'm going with it. Not sure why this is such a hard notion to accept.

-I was more thinking by FPSSJ (or Gohan wouldn't still be stronger than him) they surpassed him in base. Anyway, you're assuming Piccolo was that strong. We can speculate, but after his first appearance as Kamiccolo we have no indication how strong he was, other than "stronger than he was when he first merged with Kami".

-Already conceded that.

-I just find it weird that someone who can apparently tell they have this huge latent energy could be like "Ah! They have huge latent energy! How unexpected!" later on. But it's sort of already been established above that Babidi and Dabura didn't have a clue in general.

-Because algorithms are very Dragon Ball.

-I would imagine Kaioshin at least knows how strong he is, but he did make a lot of mistakes I guess.

Piccolo could have used suppression. He lowered his Ki to the point of passing by as weaker. Also, I think there's a misconception that Goku went SSJ2 against Yakon, unless stated otherwise. He could have fully powered up his SSJ to kill him, hence Dabura knowing nothing beyond that level (and because I believe Gohan faced him as a FPSSJ). Ultimately, they're MSSJ, with the ability to increase their Ki output, and those 3.000 Kiri were perhaps a reference to Goku's power level against Freeza. If we make him 10 times stronger in the Buu saga, and then use the SSJ multiplier, we're talking about 1.500.000, which makes Babidi's machine translate with 50 times the difference. Dabura, who had been measured with over 4.000 Kiri, could have a power level of 2.000.000, and 80 times less (a made up FPSSJ multiplier) of that is 25.000, which sets Gohan's base power lower than Goku's.

Goku definitely went SSJ2 against Yakon; Vegeta stated afterwards that this proved that Goku "broke through the Super Saiyan wall", and after that, when Goku and Vegeta were fighting, Gohan said that Goku is fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, and probably Vegeta too--implying he knew for sure Goku had SSJ2 from the Yakon thing, but was just guessing Vegeta probably did since he hadn't seen him do it.

Honestly, I feel they should be weaker than 100% Freeza. Toriyama re-read the manga for BoG, and I believe he felt the need to clear his lazy writing during the Boo Arc, somewhat. Otherwise that line isn't necessary in the movie. He likes things simple, for children. Even following the power progression of the series, it doesn't feel right, unless we believe the SSJ multiplier is less than initially. And even this has it's flaws, during the Cell arc Goku wouldn't have mastered SSJ but increased it's base form power. We just have these little contradictions, many of them doubtful and possible refuted if he dig enough. We probably would've agreed as a fan-base that Toriyama is inconsistent and wrote out of his ass, a lot. Yet here we are, discussing details that probably didn't have enough thought put into it, or being wrong because the author forgets thing often. If he look at the general picture it makes sense that base Saiyans never reached 100%. We are just chasing out tails; hey, it's fun!

Just remenbered,I can say Vegeta is arrogant/prideful to believe himself stronger than #18 and Piccolo in base. He said before that he was the strongest in the Universe, knowing he's not.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure the implication of BoG is that they're weaker than Freeza. I just think that the Buu saga implies the opposite (and that maybe the BoG line is even an intentional change because they realised that the implications and realised they didn't like it that way). Toriyama re-read the manga, but the fact that we're able to have such lengthy discussions (and I know this isn't the only debate on this subject within the fandom by far, or even on this site) about it it proof enough that it isn't all that clear-cut. When thinking about stuff like that, I doubt he was thinking about really anything in the Buu saga where their base power wasn't really relevant anymore, or any of this complex stuff we're talking about (which I still hold is the implication of the Buu saga, even if they now don't want it to be); he probably thought back to "What was the last enemy they were able to fight in base? Freeza, I guess. Okay, I guess he's where their base forms fall short." Which is a more sensible system for sure, so I don't mind the change in direction at all.

EDIT:

Forgot to reply to this part:

Just remenbered,I can say Vegeta is arrogant/prideful to believe himself stronger than #18 and Piccolo in base. He said before that he was the strongest in the Universe, knowing he's not.

Eh...given his reaction to Kamiccolo when he first sensed him back in the Cell arc (and that was compared to his SSJ form), I don't think he'd be quite so prideful to claim he could beat someone way beyond android 17's level, if he was weaker than 100% Freeza XD That's beyond prideful.

[Truhan]

Piccolo could have used suppression. He lowered his Ki to the point of passing by as weaker. Also, I think there's a misconception that Goku went SSJ2 against Yakon, unless stated otherwise. He could have fully powered up his SSJ to kill him, hence Dabura knowing nothing beyond that level (and because I believe Gohan faced him as a FPSSJ). Ultimately, they're MSSJ, with the ability to increase their Ki output, and those 3.000 Kiri were perhaps a reference to Goku's power level against Freeza. If we make him 10 times stronger in the Buu saga, and then use the SSJ multiplier, we're talking about 1.500.000, which makes Babidi's machine translate with 50 times the difference. Dabura, who had been measured with over 4.000 Kiri, could have a power level of 2.000.000, and 80 times less (a made up FPSSJ multiplier) of that is 25.000, which sets Gohan's base power lower than Goku's.

Goku definitely went SSJ2 against Yakon; Vegeta stated afterwards that this proved that Goku "broke through the Super Saiyan wall", and after that, when Goku and Vegeta were fighting, Gohan said that Goku is fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, and probably Vegeta too--implying he knew for sure Goku had SSJ2 from the Yakon thing, but was just guessing Vegeta probably did since he hadn't seen him do it.

This is getting out of hand... Soon enough I'll have to do power level lists, instead of formulas, to encompass the power differences. I'll never get my DB calculator online, fan based or not. Just tell me one thing: when was Goku measured? After unleashing his SSJ2 or before it?

[LightBing]

Like I said, I'm pretty sure the implication of BoG is that they're weaker than Freeza. I just think that the Buu saga implies the opposite (and that maybe the BoG line is even an intentional change because they realised that the implications and realised they didn't like it that way). Toriyama re-read the manga, but the fact that we're able to have such lengthy discussions (and I know this isn't the only debate on this subject within the fandom by far, or even on this site) about it it proof enough that it isn't all that clear-cut. When thinking about stuff like that, I doubt he was thinking about really anything in the Buu saga where their base power wasn't really relevant anymore, or any of this complex stuff we're talking about (which I still hold is the implication of the Buu saga, even if they now don't want it to be); he probably thought back to "What was the last enemy they were able to fight in base? Freeza, I guess. Okay, I guess he's where their base forms fall short." Which is a more sensible system for sure, so I don't mind the change in direction at all.

Buu saga only implies it in a few instances. Generally, if we take out that one or two inconsistency, it makes perfect sense that the base Saiyans never progressed beyond that. And BoG only clear up the confusion. I mean, take out Vegeta's statement of the picture, and it's becomes much easier to accept the reasons to justify the other doubtful implications.

Eh...given his reaction to Kamiccolo when he first sensed him back in the Cell arc (and that was compared to his SSJ form), I don't think he'd be quite so prideful to claim he could beat someone way beyond android 17's level, if he was weaker than 100% Freeza XD That's beyond prideful.

He killed people and put the Universe at risk because of his pride; just to fight Goku. It's not that farfetched.

This is getting out of hand... Soon enough I'll have to do power level lists, instead of formulas, to encompass the power differences. I'll never get my DB calculator online, fan based or not. Just tell me one thing: when was Goku measured? After unleashing his SSJ2 or before it?

Before it. SSJ2 was just a quick burst.

[Captain Space]

Buu saga only implies it in a few instances. Generally, if we take out that one or two inconsistency, it makes perfect sense that the base Saiyans never progressed beyond that. And BoG only clear up the confusion. I mean, take out Vegeta's statement of the picture, and it's becomes much easier to accept the reasons to justify the other doubtful implications.

The problem with that is that the Buu saga still does imply it in one or two instances, but never implies the opposite, therefore it seems the more reasonable conclusion based purely on the manga. BoG more strongly implies the opposite, which like I said is fine.

He killed people and put the Universe at risk because of his pride; just to fight Goku. It's not that farfetched.

He still knew how powerful he was compared to Piccolo in the android saga (not to mention acknowledging that Goku had a much better shot at Cell that he did, and that Gohan far surpassed him in the Cell saga). This would imply that he forgot that somehow. (Also, Goku and Gohan were fine with the ruling too.)

[LightBing]

Buu saga only implies it in a few instances. Generally, if we take out that one or two inconsistency, it makes perfect sense that the base Saiyans never progressed beyond that. And BoG only clear up the confusion. I mean, take out Vegeta's statement of the picture, and it's becomes much easier to accept the reasons to justify the other doubtful implications.

The problem with that is that the Buu saga still does imply it in one or two instances, but never implies the opposite, therefore it seems the more reasonable conclusion based purely on the manga. BoG more strongly implies the opposite, which like I said is fine.

He killed people and put the Universe at risk because of his pride; just to fight Goku. It's not that farfetched.

He still knew how powerful he was compared to Piccolo in the android saga (not to mention acknowledging that Goku had a much better shot at Cell that he did, and that Gohan far surpassed him in the Cell saga). This would imply that he forgot that somehow. (Also, Goku and Gohan were fine with the ruling too.)

There are some: the kids needing SSJ to defeat #18. Gohan using SSJ to train with Goten, the kids are implied to be weaker than Piccolo. Vegeta being SSJ in the gravity room at just 150 times gravity(this one is very thin). South Kaio believing his fighter can defeat Goku before he turns SSJ. Goku telling Kuririn to back down after seeing Dabra, with Kuririn admitting he wouldn't be useful, but telling nothing to Piccolo. Gohan being unable to pull the Z-Sword in base and struggling in SSJ. Helped by these quotes from Kaioshin after realizing the power of SSJ.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily.”

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P7.5
Kaioshin: “…In-in this case…If I had known that there were people like you guys, who though human greatly surpassed my power…Th-there would have been that other method too…”
Gohan being unable to pull the Z-Sword in base.

Chapter: 470 (DBZ 276), P5.2-4
Context: Kaioshin says the situation isn’t completely hopeless
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

It's just that one quote from Vegeta that's impossible to refute within reason,Claiming that he's just arrogant like I did, is very weak defense. And the kiri measure, but that after re-reading the scene, Goku went SSJ to light the area, and we know he can control his SSJ output to a low level of everyday life, he may had just used enough ki to be comfortably ahead of Yakon. All the other contradictions stop being as such, when we reason that Dabra and Babidi don't know how to measure power,and Kaioshin is initially mistaken and then comes around to understand the SSJ power. I firmly believe Mr Toriyama always intended for them to be weaker than Freeza.

[Captain Space]

There are some: the kids needing SSJ to defeat #18. Gohan using SSJ to train with Goten, the kids are implied to be weaker than Piccolo. Vegeta being SSJ in the gravity room at just 150 times gravity(this one is very thin). South Kaio believing his fighter can defeat Goku before he turns SSJ. Goku telling Kuririn to back down after seeing Dabra, with Kuririn admitting he wouldn't be useful, but telling nothing to Piccolo. Gohan being unable to pull the Z-Sword in base and struggling in SSJ. Helped by these quotes from Kaioshin after realizing the power of SSJ.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily.”

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P7.5
Kaioshin: “…In-in this case…If I had known that there were people like you guys, who though human greatly surpassed my power…Th-there would have been that other method too…”
Gohan being unable to pull the Z-Sword in base.

Chapter: 470 (DBZ 276), P5.2-4
Context: Kaioshin says the situation isn’t completely hopeless
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

It's just that one quote from Vegeta that's impossible to refute within reason,Claiming that he's just arrogant like I did, is very weak defense. And the kiri measure, but that after re-reading the scene, Goku went SSJ to light the area, and we know he can control his SSJ output to a low level of everyday life, he may had just used enough ki to be comfortably ahead of Yakon. All the other contradictions stop being as such, when we reason that Dabra and Babidi don't know how to measure power,and Kaioshin is initially mistaken and then comes around to understand the SSJ power. I firmly believe Mr Toriyama always intended for them to be weaker than Freeza.

Hmm, didn't think that about the kids. I certainly wouldn't say their base power is as high as I was thinking for the adults...hum, good point there.

Yeah, the gravity thing is pretty thin, given that Namek-era Goku could take 100G.

Which could just mean that South Kaio has a fighter that strong. It's the afterlife, after all, they've had thousands of years to train. Sure, it's a bit weird that he'd be stronger than Kaioshin, but hey, so is Goku (in some form), and so are plenty of beings still in the mortal plane, and Kaioshin has been so out of touch he doesn't know about any of this (and nor have any of the current Kaio met him, so they wouldn't know what his power was).

I'd put not telling Piccolo to leave down to the simple fact that he may have been outclassed (which he was no matter what their base power was in relation to him), but not nearly as much as Krillin.

I don't think the Z-Sword is too much of an indication anyway. All that tells us is that pulling the Z-Sword is a feat that's both beyond Kaioshin's power and base Gohan's power; which one of those is higher is irrelevant.

Like I've said, it's not just a quote from Vegeta. It's Vegeta, Goku and Gohan all going along with it and all being perfectly confident that they have at least a fair shot at it. It seems pretty strong evidence to me.

It's possible that wasn't Goku's full SSJ power, I suppose. But they don't exactly say as much, or have him powering up other than to go SSJ2, so it's unclear.

I dunno about that conclusion...I mean, you've managed to convince me that there are more contradictions than I thought, one way or the other, at least XD

-

So on an entirely separate note, wasn't South Kaioshin implied to be stronger than Kid Buu? Hence why it had to absorb him? And yet he couldn't pull the Z-Sword, when SSJ Gohan (obviously much weaker than Kid Buu) could? Or am I remembering something wrong?

[Truhan]

Well, it may not count, but my prediction is that South Kaioshin is 2 times stronger than Fat Buu, and 2 times weaker than Kid Buu. Look at this:

Dai Kai - 0.125x
Fat Buu - 1x
South Kai - 2x
Kid Buu - 4x

Kid Buu + South Kai >> 4 * 2 = 8 (Buff Buu)
Buff Buu + Dai Kai >> 8 * 0.125 = 1 (Fat Buu)

If Fat Buu (without anger) were to be as strong as a SSJ2 - hence Vegeta underestimating him, and Gohan saying that he wouldn't be a problem if he could tap onto his anger - and Majin Vegeta was 300.000k, then South Kai would be 600.000k, and Dai Kai less than that (37.500k). Dai Kaioshin's value would be higher than Piccolo's, who could be in the 30.000k range... 10 times stronger than Goku at base. It still won't answer why South Kaioshin couldn't pull the sword... I guess the legend was stronger than his belief that he could, hence having never attempted.

[Captain Space]

If South Kaioshin was much weaker than Kid Buu, though, why would Buu absorb him? It only absorbs enemies when it's really in trouble, right?

[Truhan]

If South Kaioshin was much weaker than Kid Buu, though, why would Buu absorb him? It only absorbs enemies when it's really in trouble, right?

Not really. Evil Buu absorbed Mr. Buu even though he was weaker. My best guess is that he wanted to complete himself, while absorbing South Kaioshin was without said intent. I guess that Kid Buu expected to get stronger, except for the surprise that was Dai Kaioshin. I also don't know if it was filler, but South Kaioshin looked pretty beaten up against Kid Buu.

[Captain Space]

If South Kaioshin was much weaker than Kid Buu, though, why would Buu absorb him? It only absorbs enemies when it's really in trouble, right?

Not really. Evil Buu absorbed Mr. Buu even though he was weaker. My best guess is that he wanted to complete himself, while absorbing South Kaioshin was without said intent. I guess that Kid Buu expected to get stronger, except for the surprise that was Dai Kaioshin. I also don't know if it was filler, but South Kaioshin looked pretty beaten up against Kid Buu.

I mean, maybe? I figured that:

-Like you said, Evil Buu wanting to be complete and have all of Buu within him, as it were.
-Evil Buu is smarter than Kid Buu. I'm not sure if Kid Buu would even be able to put together "I should hold off on killing this one, maybe he'll make me stronger". He never had such thoughts when fighting Goku and Vegeta. I kind of figured his thought processes went from "can kill this one. Kill it", to "can't kill this one. In danger. Absorb".

Still, that's just conjecture, so you're quite possibly right.

(Yeah, the actual fights against the Kaioshin were never shown in the manga.)