Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[dbzfan7]

Their logic for this was horrible acting like superman is unbeatable or invincible or even limitless despite doomsday putting him in a coma. This was point blank nlf.

Superman got better after the Doomsday stuff. They pretty much said that. It'd be like saying Goku lost to Raditz so he loses to someone stronger than Raditz.

Not my point death battle acting like superman is limitless. He isn't he just have a higher threshold than most characters and even then he not the strongest in his universe. Also that lifting infinity feat is inconsistent considering he needed wonder woman and Martin manhunter to pull the earth.

Which goes to my limitless point. Superman can be written to do pretty much anything. There's hardly a PIS situation for him. He can pretty much be allowed to be written as strong as any writer wants. There are foes written to be above Superman, but Superman could be written to be superior next time without much of a second thought.

This quote sums it up even further for me

Goku vs. Superman is simple. Most media representations of Superman, Goku wins easily, he's a super speed fighter planet buster and Supes isn't, and really, Raditz could dominate Superman as he is in the movies and cartoon and *most* comics. And once you get to Super Saiyan levels its really entirely Goku's domination.

But if you take the absolute strongest (most badly written comic science) stories where Supes is his most contrived and impossible? Then by sheer math it's Superman by a mile. There's a difference between being able to blow up a planet, and being able to physically move one.

Goku can train while wearing a few tons, but Superman can well, drag the entire Earth a distance. Goku can tank crazy powerful hits, Superman can take exploding supernovas. Even with new SSG forms to account for, its still... not a thing.

[Kamiccolo9]

That was after his history was retconned by Crisis on Infinite Earths though.

Earth 2 Superman, Superboy Prime, and Earth 3 Luthor were unaffected by the Crisis. That was the point of Infinite Crisis, when they attempted to bring the previous Earth 2 back.

On paper Darkseid wasn't affected either, but he was completely different afterwards, so I don't quite buy that.

Darkseid wasn't completely sealed away in a separate dimension away from the Crisis, at least to my knowledge. We have Earth 2 Superman directly telling us about pre-crisis Earth 2, about how he's going to bring it back because it was the "real Earth," Luthor and Prime both confirming it, Kal-El confirming it, etc. That's the entire reason E2 Superman kicked off the events of Infinite Crisis in the first place (until it was later revealed that Alex Luthor orchestrated the whole thing, but whatevs.) Kal-L, E2 Lois Lane, and Power Girl were all survivors of the first Crisis. That point is made numerous times, and is integral to their characters in the storyline.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well the information there have been recent plus these. Guys at least know what their talking about compated tp death battle.

That's really not saying much, though.

[Mewzard]

A galaxy is mostly empty space. You could throw one at me right now and most of it would miss the solar system. But honestly Silver Age Superman has done ridiculous stuff like overpowered a group of guys who each had the strength of galaxies, and when another guy channeled the energy of 100 galaxies at him at once, he said he only might be in trouble (and ended up winning, IIRC).

You mean Magnar from New Genesis, one of the New Gods.



Now that was a powerful little move right there. The fight ended before a winner could be decided, when they realized he wasn't an enemy.

Damn already forgot what happen in the battle.

Anyone thinks this battle was to mock the people complainng? I'm curious why they didn't give Goku a better opponent. Superman should have been used by someone else. Wasted two battles for these two

I'm pretty sure they made the choice because people wouldn't shut up about it. Guess they needed one last video to make their answer clear.

Also, while Goku might beat many animated depictions of Superman and some early comic versions, Superman in much of his modern written history has been above Goku (ignoring the even more insane Silver Age stuff and some Elseworlds stories). It doesn't need to be his absolute best from decades ago for Superman to win. We don't need Superboy Prime moving planets across the universe so fast people thought they teleported (all to alter the center of the Universe) to beat Goku, though it would be incredibly effective.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Their logic for this was horrible acting like superman is unbeatable or invincible or even limitless despite doomsday putting him in a coma. This was point blank nlf.

Superman got better after the Doomsday stuff. They pretty much said that. It'd be like saying Goku lost to Raditz so he loses to someone stronger than Raditz.

Not my point death battle acting like superman is limitless. He isn't he just have a higher threshold than most characters and even then he not the strongest in his universe. Also that lifting infinity feat is inconsistent considering he needed wonder woman and Martin manhunter to pull the earth.

Well to play Devil's Advocate, he's moved the Earth several times by himself, even when powerful beings were trying to move it in the other direction. Also in-universe he has 'mental blocks' that cause him to hold back a lot and rarely ever goes all out with his strength.

But no, I don't really believe his strength is infinite.

People say stuff like the Hulk's strength is infinite or limitless too, but that's not true either.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Darkseid wasn't completely sealed away in a separate dimension away from the Crisis, at least to my knowledge. We have Earth 2 Superman directly telling us about pre-crisis Earth 2, about how he's going to bring it back because it was the "real Earth," Luthor and Prime both confirming it, Kal-El confirming it, etc. That's the entire reason E2 Superman kicked off the events of Infinite Crisis in the first place (until it was later revealed that Alex Luthor orchestrated the whole thing, but whatevs.) Kal-L, E2 Lois Lane, and Power Girl were all survivors of the first Crisis. That point is made numerous times, and is integral to their characters in the storyline.

I'm just saying that it really doesn't mesh with a lot of the stuff we saw in the actual Pre-Crisis comics.

[singsing]

DAE lmao death battle logic? "Hey guys, this guy is literally infinite. Let's not mention the many many times he loses and the many many characters so far above him they literally bitch slap his face."

[Polyphase Avatron]

You mean Magnar from New Genesis, one of the New Gods.



Now that was a powerful little move right there. The fight ended before a winner could be decided, when they realized he wasn't an enemy.

Yeah, that guy. I have never read the issue, just seen people post the scans, and that was a while ago.

[GokuRules987]

Wait what? lol Just about any Gold Saint could beat SA superman dude. How will he tank a galaxy busting attack focused on each of his atom without even realizing it?

Someone showed scans of him flying through the Big Bang unharmed once.

How would he fight shaka who is considered the man closest to god and can take anyones 5 senses away wthout even blinking?

Because he has like 50 senses or something. (Yes, I know in Saint Seiya the 6th sense is the mind, but Silver Age Superman also has a bunch of plot-level mental resistance BS too).

How could he deal with Deathmask that can create a galaxy at a tip of his finger and just randomly throw at superman lol!?

A galaxy is mostly empty space. You could throw one at me right now and most of it would miss the solar system. But honestly Silver Age Superman has done ridiculous stuff like overpowered a group of guys who each had the strength of galaxies, and when another guy channeled the energy of 100 galaxies at him at once, he said he only might be in trouble (and ended up winning, IIRC).

And God cloth Saints are on a complete different level that can cross thousands of universes/dimensions in seconds

Actually it was trillions of galaxies, but SA Superman once crossed the universe (billions/trillions of galaxies) in a nanosecond, and can also travel through time at will.

tank big bang(universe busting attacks at point blank range without a scratch)

Like I said, Superman did that too.

And someone like seiya could punch billion times with a fraction of a second with a force of galaxy exploding.

And one time SA Superman was punching someone so hard that all of time and space was being shifted into a different timeline.

Really he was just bullshit powerful back in those days, they had to depower him like twice because it was just getting silly.

You still dont understand? SA Superman cannot beat Saint and its simple as that, many people will tell you the same thing on almost any debate between SA Superman vs Saint Seiya

And for your information let me tell you this, saints were able to cross the hyperdimension between Tartarus and Elysium in a matter of MINUTES, that hyperdimension was theoretically INFINITE as it was a compressed space made by the divine power of Hades. Also Dont forget that Saints fight at a quantum foam level. A galaxy busting attacks is compressed to a level that it can fit inside of an atom and rapidly expand until it completely vaporized that atom. And dont forget that exploding galaxy has 100 billion exploding solar systems. Cant you even imagine how powerful that attack would be? The Author of the Saint Seiya even stated himself that cosmo was the force that defined the laws of physics today.All the attacks were explosions perfectly contained onto the atoms of their target. Not only that but also the Saint Seiya guidebook also confirmed that YES they are quite literally striking with the power to rupture galaxies.
Btw cosmo is unlimited!

[Kamiccolo9]

Darkseid wasn't completely sealed away in a separate dimension away from the Crisis, at least to my knowledge. We have Earth 2 Superman directly telling us about pre-crisis Earth 2, about how he's going to bring it back because it was the "real Earth," Luthor and Prime both confirming it, Kal-El confirming it, etc. That's the entire reason E2 Superman kicked off the events of Infinite Crisis in the first place (until it was later revealed that Alex Luthor orchestrated the whole thing, but whatevs.) Kal-L, E2 Lois Lane, and Power Girl were all survivors of the first Crisis. That point is made numerous times, and is integral to their characters in the storyline.

I'm just saying that it really doesn't mesh with a lot of the stuff we saw in the actual Pre-Crisis comics.

In their first meeting, Earth 2 Superman was an even match for Pre-Crisis Superman. Then his age started to catch up with him. The biggest difference between the two is that Earth 2 Superman's "prime" seems to have been much shorter than the later Kryptonians. All of this "Original Superman was weak" stuff comes from the first couple years of his existence. He quickly grew out of that.

[Polyphase Avatron]

DAE lmao death battle logic? "Hey guys, this guy is literally infinite. Let's not mention the many many times he loses and the many many characters so far above him they literally bitch slap his face."

I suppose that's just the result of taking the absolute best showing/feat/statement that can be scaled to a character and ignoring everything else. Pretty bad way to argue.

Although I have seen DBZ fans do similar things on occasion.

[Mewzard]

DAE lmao death battle logic? "Hey guys, this guy is literally infinite. Let's not mention the many many times he loses and the many many characters so far above him they literally bitch slap his face."

His potential is infinite is the point, not his power (though he has done some crazy crap in some stories).

Yeah, that guy. I have never read the issue, just seen people post the scans, and that was a while ago.

It's from The New Gods comic. Jack Kirby's Fourth World really was his magnum opus and one of the best run of comics ever. I recommend checking it out. 70s Jack Kirby was insane in the best way possible.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Darkseid wasn't completely sealed away in a separate dimension away from the Crisis, at least to my knowledge. We have Earth 2 Superman directly telling us about pre-crisis Earth 2, about how he's going to bring it back because it was the "real Earth," Luthor and Prime both confirming it, Kal-El confirming it, etc. That's the entire reason E2 Superman kicked off the events of Infinite Crisis in the first place (until it was later revealed that Alex Luthor orchestrated the whole thing, but whatevs.) Kal-L, E2 Lois Lane, and Power Girl were all survivors of the first Crisis. That point is made numerous times, and is integral to their characters in the storyline.

I'm just saying that it really doesn't mesh with a lot of the stuff we saw in the actual Pre-Crisis comics.

In their first meeting, Earth 2 Superman was an even match for Pre-Crisis Superman. Then his age started to catch up with him. The biggest difference between the two is that Earth 2 Superman's "prime" seems to have been much shorter than the later Kryptonians. All of this "Original Superman was weak" stuff comes from the first couple years of his existence. He quickly grew out of that.

The thing is that, if he was meant to represent the Pre-Crisis/Silver/Bronze Age Superman, he should have been way stronger than the Post-Crisis Earth-1 Superman.

In fact that was the point of Superboy Prime at first, he was supposed to have the power level of a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian, which explained why he was bitchsmacking around all of the modern heroes (including Earth-1 Superman).

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's from The New Gods comic. Jack Kirby's Fourth World really was his magnum opus and one of the best run of comics ever. I recommend checking it out. 70s Jack Kirby was insane in the best way possible.

True, but I also like the stuff he did in Marvel in the 60s. Like creating the Fantastic Four and Galactus.

[singsing]

DAE lmao death battle logic? "Hey guys, this guy is literally infinite. Let's not mention the many many times he loses and the many many characters so far above him they literally bitch slap his face."

His potential is infinite is the point, not his power (though he has done some crazy crap in some stories).

Yeah, that guy. I have never read the issue, just seen people post the scans, and that was a while ago.

It's from The New Gods comic. Jack Kirby's Fourth World really was his magnum opus and one of the best run of comics ever. I recommend checking it out. 70s Jack Kirby was insane in the best way possible.

I really don't think it is, and I'm sure the writers will agree. Even they haven't had him beat/stalemate omnipotents yet.

You still dont understand? SA Superman cannot beat Saint and its simple as that, many people will tell you the same thing on almost any debate between SA Superman vs Saint Seiya

Oh please. You don't even understand. RETCON PUNCH! I AM NOW A SUPER SUPER GOLD SEIYA

[Kamiccolo9]

It's from The New Gods comic. Jack Kirby's Fourth World really was his magnum opus and one of the best run of comics ever. I recommend checking it out. 70s Jack Kirby was insane in the best way possible.

If you like the Fourth World stuff, check out Jim Starlin's work with the cosmic Marvel stuff. Totally blows Kirby out of the water, in my opinion.

The thing is that, if he was meant to represent the Pre-Crisis/Silver/Bronze Age Superman, he should have been way stronger than the Post-Crisis Earth-1 Superman.

In fact that was the point of Superboy Prime at first, he was supposed to have the power level of a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian, which explained why he was bitchsmacking around all of the modern heroes (including Earth-1 Superman).

He doesn't. He is Golden Age Superman. Earth 1 Superman, which is the one you are thinking of no longer existed after the Crisis. You are equating New Earth Supes with Earth 1 Supes, and that doesn't work.

[dbzfan7]

Anyone else think it would have been hilarious end if Superman "Man of Steeled" Goku at the end instead of the lobotomy? Have one controversial end be the ending of another controversial thing?

[Polyphase Avatron]

You still dont understand? SA Superman cannot beat Saint and its simple as that, many people will tell you the same thing on almost any debate between SA Superman vs Saint Seiya

I'm actually going by what I read in a debate on another site. Pretty long-winded yet civil debate and both sides were making good points.

And for your information let me tell you this, saints were able to cross the hyperdimension between Tartarus and Elysium in a matter of MINUTES, that hyperdimension was theoretically INFINITE as it was a compressed space made by the divine power of Hades.

The manga itself said they crossed between billions of galaxies and trillions of dark spaces (supposedly meaning intergalactic space). It has numbers attached to it, so not infinite by definition. Besides, bringing up 'infinite' claims never makes much sense in a debate anyway (like Superman lifting an 'infinitely heavy book').

Also Dont forget that Saints fight at a quantum foam level. A galaxy busting attacks is compressed to a level that it can fit inside of an atom and rapidly expand until it completely vaporized that atom.

You don't 'vaporize' atoms. Vapor is a state of matter that includes atoms.

And dont forget that exploding galaxy has 100 billion exploding solar systems. Cant you even imagine how powerful that attack would be? The Author of the Saint Seiya even stated himself that cosmo was the force that defined the laws of physics today.All the attacks were explosions perfectly contained onto the atoms of their target. Not only that but also the Saint Seiya guidebook also confirmed that YES they are quite literally striking with the power to rupture galaxies.

And? My point was that Silver Age Superman did stuff and fought stuff on that level or beyond all the time. I saw tons of scans posted of it.

Either way I don't feel like actually arguing this, I was just pointing out that it is at least debatable going by what others have said and the evidence they presented.

[Polyphase Avatron]

He doesn't. He is Golden Age Superman. Earth 1 Superman, which is the one you are thinking of no longer existed after the Crisis. You are equating New Earth Supes with Earth 1 Supes, and that doesn't work.

But AFAIK there was no history retcon between the Golden and Silver ages, the Superman from the 30s and 40s was the same one from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

[Kamiccolo9]

He doesn't. He is Golden Age Superman. Earth 1 Superman, which is the one you are thinking of no longer existed after the Crisis. You are equating New Earth Supes with Earth 1 Supes, and that doesn't work.

But AFAIK there was no history retcon between the Golden and Silver ages, the Superman from the 30s and 40s was the same one from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

There is. The two even meet at one point during the 60's. Infinite Crisis even references that meeting.


I don't think there's a clear cutoff point, but gradually it shifted to an Earth 1 focus over an Earth 2 one.