Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Taskmaster]

Still on my phone, so sorry about formatting, spelling and grammar.

'Kid Buu's power decreased'
No power decrease was mentioned, however Kaioshin stated (with no contridiction I might add) and proven by a feat. That Buu's power increased. And I will point out his statement contridicted Goku and followed a precedent set from all major Villains including Freeza and Cell.

Actually, a power decrease is indicated. When Goku and Vegeta had removed all the cocoons within Buu outside of Mr. Buu, Goku makes this comment about Buu's power.

Indicated by you =/= not stated. Vegeta's comment was explicitly about size, and that wasn't an oversight. Goku's comment also doesn't mention power at all. So please, let us stick to the facts and not our own biased opinions.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”

This statement that they're "almost there" means that they've weakened him a good bit, but they've not weakened him as far as they've wanted to. Remember, they're trying to weaken him to a point to where they don't need fusion in order to beat him, so this statement establishes that they've weakened him some, but not as far as they've wanted.

Then, when Buu completely reverts from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu, Goku makes this statement.

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Here is where you're wrong and why - Goku and Vegeta actually have a conversation about Buu powering up and stating "I wish he would quit doing that"

Even if Goku's comment was about Buu's power decreasing, he's immediately proven wrong by Kaioshinn and Buu's actions, and the many statements that follow it.

What is he saying "we did it!" for? Saying that indicates the completion of a goal they were striving for, and at the time they only had two goals. 1) Getting everyone out of Buu, and 2) Weakening Buu to where they could manage something on their own.

Well, Goku stated this was a goal even before fusion wasn't an option. And while Herms translation suggest that Goku was speaking about about Fat Buu, he's actually surprised (and unaware) that Fat Buu is in a pod inside Buu, meaning his 'very first Buu' could be (is) just Super Buu (which would be Buu without the Kids/Piccolo absorbed) and make his statement regarding leaving small and unfused true.

Since they had already completed goal #1 a good while before Goku made that statement, #2 is the only goal he has to be referring to, thus him stating "We did it" is indicating that they completed the goal that they had yet to complete while they were in Evil Buu, which was weaken him to the point they could fight him on their own.

Likewise, Kibitoshin never actually stated that Buu's power increased from where it was as Evil Buu, simply that he no longer had the Dai Kaioushin's influence weakening him, which returned him to being pure evil.

False. Kaioshin stated his power went back up (from what? His previously seen form obviously) and there would be no reason to mention a power increase and SHOW it just to be intentionally deceptive. Remember what I said about Vegeta's statement?

I'm trying to be straight forward here and not imply anything that was explicitly stated. A power decrease was NEVER mentioned. Also, Elder Kaioshinn recommend (permanent) Fusion earrings to deal with Buu, despite Gohan and the other still being alive.

Even after fighting a bit, Goku laments on the fact that Fusion would have assured Victory on this matter (no mention of Gohan) this statement goes in had with a few other statements made about Buu's power.

However, he was also now missing all the power he gained from having absorbed the South Kaioushin. In addition, Kibitoshin's entire fear over Pure Buu is indicated to be because of his uncontrollable evil, not his strength.

Where was that stated? Goku and Vegeta state at least 2 or 3 different times how doomed they are when referring to this Buu, but none of them talk about his 'ferociousness'

Actually Buu's reasoning wasn't power, it was Goku's size. Even Goku admitted he would beat Buu and find a way out - he even seemed confident (and then surprised) when he couldn't harm Buu at his size. The answer is obvious.

No, Goku never said that he would beat Buu and find a way out. He said that he realizes that the only way out would be to beat Buu, which is a far different situation. Saying that the only way he can escape is to beat Buu is simply laying out the facts of the scenario given, and isn't Goku making any kind of declaration or statement about him being able to beat Buu.

See my comments above.

Not quiet, he's stronger than A full blooded sayin - and why not say all, why not say Goku if it were true? Of course it's not, as the Benchmark set for creating the movie was clearly stated to be Goku.

Benchmark was never stated to be Goku.

What? I believe the editor specifically set Goku as a benchmark.

Remember how shocked Vegeta was over how Beerus had thrashed everyone at Bulma's party, even after he had learned that Goku had been effortlessly taken out by him earlier? If Goku were more powerful than Gohan and the others at that time, then Vegeta wouldn't have been shocked in the slightest. Besides, why would they need to specifically mention Goku if full-blooded Saiya-jin covers Goku easily. It's not needing to make a specification because full-blooded Saiya-jin covers all necessary individuals anyway.

Didn't Vegeta express shock when he heard Goku lost and did everything in his power to stop Beerus from attacking everyone? DIdn't Vegeta (before he fought Beerus) state they were all doomed?

And Why say a "full Blooded Saiy-Jin" instead of "ALL Saiy-jin" Unless of course...that wasn't the case. Gohan did nothing remarkable the whole movie (he was easily brushed aside and was NOT chosen to do the SSJG ritual, as it was stated the power of the form is based on the user. What sense would that make to have someone weaker chosen?

It's the same way as guide books stating that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3. Since it's not specifying an individual, it's blanket covering both Goku and Gotenks.

A Super Saiyjin 3 Gotenks. It also says that Gohan hasn't yet surpassed Goku.

And honestly why does the story have to play out in such a silly and contrived manner as many of you suggest - why couldn't Toriyama just say fuck it (as I assume he did) and Just make Goku stronger when he fought Buu. No comment made in the final battle and since suggested that he didn't.

Because he just chose to do it the way he did, that Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku, but to make Goku be the one to save the day in the end, they were conveniently written out so that Goku was the only one capable of fighting.[/quote][/quote]

I just showed you why this is incorrect, and hasn't held up when new material is factored in.

[singsing]

Indicated by you =/= not stated. Vegeta's comment was explicitly about size, and that wasn't an oversight. Goku's comment also doesn't mention power at all. So please, let us stick to the facts and not our own biased opinions.

How does "size of ki" not indicate getting stronger/weaker again? If you're going to throw around accusations, maybe don't throw around "facts" and "biased opinions" when you do so yourself.

False. Kaioshin stated his power went back up (from what? His previously seen form obviously) and there would be no reason to mention a power increase and SHOW it just to be intentionally deceptive. Remember what I said about Vegeta's statement?

I'm trying to be straight forward here and not imply anything that was explicitly stated. A power decrease was NEVER mentioned. Also, Elder Kaioshinn recommend (permanent) Fusion earrings to deal with Buu, despite Gohan and the other still being alive.

Even after fighting a bit, Goku laments on the fact that Fusion would have assured Victory on this matter (no mention of Gohan) this statement goes in had with a few other statements made about Buu's power.

No he didn't. I don't know what power checker you're looking at, but it's explicitly stated in the proper translations that he's more dangerous and uncontrollable, as well as the Buu that killed all the other Kaioshin and thus scares him the most. Gohan and Gotenks were DEAD at the start of the fight. You know, planet Earth blowing up and all that...? Gohan was, once again, DEAD when Goku laments that fusion would have been an easy win. As soon as the possibility of Gohan being alive again were mentioned, Goku IMMEDIATELY jumped to the conclusion that Vegeta wanted him to fight.

Well, Goku stated this was a goal even before fusion wasn't an option. And while Herms translation suggest that Goku was speaking about about Fat Buu, he's actually surprised (and unaware) that Fat Buu is in a pod inside Buu, meaning his 'very first Buu' could be (is) just Super Buu (which would be Buu without the Kids/Piccolo absorbed) and make his statement regarding leaving small and unfused true.

Super Buu is not the very first Buu... You literally just said so yourself, the very first Buu, as mentioned in the manga, is Fat Buu.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1 Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?” Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!” Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

He directly calls Fat Buu the very first one of all. Why would he do so if he's... you know, NOT the very first one of all?

I just showed you why this is incorrect, and hasn't held up when new material is factored in.

Why does your viewpoint = proof other viewpoint is incorrect and is clearly a biased opinion? Just gonna go out on a limb here and say 99% of everything here is just a biased viewpoint based on our own opinions.

[Taskmaster]

Indicated by you =/= not stated. Vegeta's comment was explicitly about size, and that wasn't an oversight. Goku's comment also doesn't mention power at all. So please, let us stick to the facts and not our own biased opinions.

How does "size of ki" not indicate getting stronger/weaker again? If you're going to throw around accusations, maybe don't throw around "facts" and "biased opinions" when you do so yourself.

Vegeta's comment had nothing to do with Ki.

[Taskmaster]

No he didn't. I don't know what power checker you're looking at, but it's explicitly stated in the proper translations that he's more dangerous and uncontrollable, as well as the Buu that killed all the other Kaioshin and thus scares him the most.

Well sir, I disagree. Kaioshinn didn't state that he fears this Buu the most because he killed all the Kaioshinn, but he did confirm (through statements and feats) that this Buu was more powerful. That is a fact, not an opinion.

Gohan and Gotenks were DEAD at the start of the fight. You know, planet Earth blowing up and all that...? Gohan was, once again, DEAD when Goku laments that fusion would have been an easy win. As soon as the possibility of Gohan being alive again were mentioned, Goku IMMEDIATELY jumped to the conclusion that Vegeta wanted him to fight.

Gohan and Goten/Trunks weren't dead when Fusion was first suggested by Elder Kaioshinn, and while the fusion earring were destroyed (thus Vegetto and Gohan are "dead") Goku states definitively that fusion would have won.

This trend continues when Goku and Vegeta state definitively that them AND everyone else would have been done in, and that they will be doomed if Buu returns. There is no counter statement proving otherwise.

Well, Goku stated this was a goal even before fusion wasn't an option. And while Herms translation suggest that Goku was speaking about about Fat Buu, he's actually surprised (and unaware) that Fat Buu is in a pod inside Buu, meaning his 'very first Buu' could be (is) just Super Buu (which would be Buu without the Kids/Piccolo absorbed) and make his statement regarding leaving small and unfused true.

Super Buu is not the very first Buu... You literally just said so yourself, the very first Buu, as mentioned in the manga, is Fat Buu.

Well aware of the quote, but Goku isn't aware of Buu making this conclusion impossible.

You're making it difficult to follow the conversation because you keep updating your original comment.

[singsing]

Well sir, I disagree. Kaioshinn didn't state that he fears this Buu the most because he killed all the Kaioshinn, but he did confirm (through statements and feats) that this Buu was more powerful. That is a fact, not an opinion.

What was his statement that said Pure Buu was the more powerful Buu? Please reference it in full, because I don't see it anywhere.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

If this is the one you're referencing, you are in full rights to view his final statement as saying Pure Buu is stronger due to no longer being weakened from absorption(s). However, that is NOT a fact, when a second perfectly valid viewpoint is that he meant one absorption, the Dai-Kaioshin absorption, weakened him.

Gohan and Goten/Trunks weren't dead when Fusion was first suggested by Elder Kaioshinn, and while the fusion earring were destroyed (thus Vegetto and Gohan are "dead") Goku states definitively that fusion would have won.

This trend continues when Goku and Vegeta state definitively that them AND everyone else would have been done in, and that they will be doomed if Buu returns. There is no counter statement proving otherwise.

What instance are you talking about? Because when Buu shows up on the Kaioshin homeworld and Elder Kaioshin offers fusion to Goku and Vegeta, Gohan and co. were most certainly dead. There are multiple counter statements that could prove otherwise. While none are fact, neither is yours. One counter statement is that Boo and Satan stalled Pure Buu long enough for Vegeta to put his plan into action. Without them, Gohan and Goten/Trunks would never have been revived, and Goku and Vegeta would have died. Please don't try to say this is a "biased opinion", because it obviously is. So is your interpretation.

Well aware of the quote, but Goku isn't aware of Buu making this conclusion impossible.

Why is this impossible? Again, stop throwing around biased opinions and stuff when you're the one who's not even going to bother conceding that other viewpoints could be correct. Not your viewpoint = biased opinion apparently.

[Darkprince410]

Indicated by you =/= not stated. Vegeta's comment was explicitly about size, and that wasn't an oversight. Goku's comment also doesn't mention power at all. So please, let us stick to the facts and not our own biased opinions.

Goku wouldn't state that they could manage something if he didn't sense that Buu was weaker than he was when they were inside him. He flat out stated that they'd lose if they tried fighting Evil Buu as they were, with Goku specifically indicating multiple times that fusion was their only way of beating Evil Buu if they left. His statement of "we did it" confirms that they had succeeded in weakening him from where he was before.

Here is where you're wrong and why - Goku and Vegeta actually have a conversation about Buu powering up and stating "I wish he would quit doing that"

For all we know, Goku said that because of how much Buu was screaming at the time, and Goku wished he stopped screaming. No mention is made of him continuing to power up after the earlier statement, which was clearly in reference to South Kaioushin Buu.

Even if Goku's comment was about Buu's power decreasing, he's immediately proven wrong by Kaioshinn and Buu's actions, and the many statements that follow it.

Kibitoshin's statement doesn't indicate that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, simply that doesn't have the Dai Kaioushin's influence weakening him. That still doesn't preclude the fact that South Kaioushin's power, which was strengthening Buu, was also gone once his reversion took place. As for Buu's actions...nothing he does proves he's stronger than he was as Evil Buu.

Well, Goku stated this was a goal even before fusion wasn't an option. And while Herms translation suggest that Goku was speaking about about Fat Buu, he's actually surprised (and unaware) that Fat Buu is in a pod inside Buu, meaning his 'very first Buu' could be (is) just Super Buu (which would be Buu without the Kids/Piccolo absorbed) and make his statement regarding leaving small and unfused true.

No, his "very first Buu" couldn't be Evil Buu, because Goku still knows it's not the first Buu. He doesn't know about Mr. Buu being inside him, but he still knows that something happened to Buu to make him change from Fat Buu to Evil Buu. Besides, that still doesn't change that Goku states that them weakening Buu down to regular Evil Buu is only "almost there" and that he still intends for them to try and weaken Buu further. Later, once Buu's reverted completely down to Pure Buu, Goku exclaims they've done it and states that now they may be able to do something, which means that he senses Pure Buu is weaker than Evil Buu.

False. Kaioshin stated his power went back up (from what? His previously seen form obviously) and there would be no reason to mention a power increase and SHOW it just to be intentionally deceptive. Remember what I said about Vegeta's statement?

No, Kibitoshin specifically says that the heart he gained from absorbing someone that weakened him has returned to the way it was before, and then goes on to mention how Buu is now pure evil with no self-control at all.

Basically, it's like this.

Pure Buu absorbed South Kaioushin, resulting in a power increase and no change to the nature of Buu's heart (he is still pure evil at this point). South Kaioushin Buu then absorbs Dai Kaioushin, giving Buu a gentler heart and weakening him in the process. Now, with the process reversing, Evil Buu loses all the influence of the Dai Kaioushin, resulting in his heart turning pure evil again and his power going up. Then, losing the influence of the South Kaioushin, Buu's power drops again when he reverts to Pure Buu.

I'm trying to be straight forward here and not imply anything that was explicitly stated. A power decrease was NEVER mentioned. Also, Elder Kaioshinn recommend (permanent) Fusion earrings to deal with Buu, despite Gohan and the other still being alive.

Every time Rou Kaioushin brings up the Potaras for Goku and Vegeta to fight Pure Buu, Gohan and the others are either unconscious or dead, thus out of commission.

Where was that stated? Goku and Vegeta state at least 2 or 3 different times how doomed they are when referring to this Buu, but none of them talk about his 'ferociousness'

Because every time they did make any notion they were doomed, Gohan and the boys were dead, and the moment they were brought back to life, Vegeta wanted to use a symbolic way of defeating Buu. At no point do any of them mention that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, or even suggest it. Likewise, Kibitoshin himself expressly states that Pure Buu has no self control, and doesn't mention anything about him being stronger than Evil Buu either.

See my comments above.

Nothing about your comment changes the situation. Goku never indicated that he was going to beat Evil Buu and escape, instead simply stated that he recognizes that the only way for them to escape would be to defeat Buu. A statement about the only course of action that exists for them is a far cry from a declaration that he's going to do something.

Didn't Vegeta express shock when he heard Goku lost and did everything in his power to stop Beerus from attacking everyone? DIdn't Vegeta (before he fought Beerus) state they were all doomed?

Vegeta was panicking the moment it was revealed to be Beerus in the first place. Likewise, as said before, Vegeta was altogether shocked by the fact that Beerus had taken out Gohan and everyone else, which should be irrelevant if Goku were stronger than them.

And Why say a "full Blooded Saiy-Jin" instead of "ALL Saiy-jin" Unless of course...that wasn't the case. Gohan did nothing remarkable the whole movie (he was easily brushed aside and was NOT chosen to do the SSJG ritual, as it was stated the power of the form is based on the user. What sense would that make to have someone weaker chosen?

Because Goku's still the main hero and they wanted him in the spotlight? Besides, that argument doesn't hold any weight anyway, since Goku was only a regular Super Saiya-jin when he was pushed into god form, not Super Saiya-jin 3, and Gohan is undeniably more powerful than regular Super Saiya-jin Goku.

A Super Saiyjin 3 Gotenks. It also says that Gohan hasn't yet surpassed Goku.

No, it specifically states Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3, and didn't specify an individual. Likewise, show where it states that Gohan has yet to surpass Goku.

I just showed you why this is incorrect, and hasn't held up when new material is factored in.

Except what you've shown is inconsistent with what is shown in the manga.

[Taskmaster]

Well sir, I disagree. Kaioshinn didn't state that he fears this Buu the most because he killed all the Kaioshinn, but he did confirm (through statements and feats) that this Buu was more powerful. That is a fact, not an opinion.

What was his statement that said Pure Buu was the more powerful Buu? Please reference it in full, because I don't see it anywhere.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

If this is the one you're referencing, you are in full rights to view his final statement as saying Pure Buu is stronger due to no longer being weakened from absorption(s). However, that is NOT a fact, when a second perfectly valid viewpoint is that he meant one absorption, the Dai-Kaioshin absorption, weakened him.

Question 1.
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

I mean, if you believe this Buu is somehow more evil than before, you have to believe he's more powerful too. If neither of these are the case, then there was no reason for this whole line to exist.

Gohan and Goten/Trunks weren't dead when Fusion was first suggested by Elder Kaioshinn, and while the fusion earring were destroyed (thus Vegetto and Gohan are "dead") Goku states definitively that fusion would have won.

This trend continues when Goku and Vegeta state definitively that them AND everyone else would have been done in, and that they will be doomed if Buu returns. There is no counter statement proving otherwise.

What instance are you talking about? Because when Buu shows up on the Kaioshin homeworld and Elder Kaioshin offers fusion to Goku and Vegeta, Gohan and co. were most certainly dead.

No. The Elder Kaioshinn actually sends Kibito Kaioshinn to give the Earring to Goku and Vegeta. It just so happens that he shows up when Earth is being destroyed.

There are multiple counter statements that could prove otherwise. While none are fact, neither is yours. One counter statement is that Boo and Satan stalled Pure Buu long enough for Vegeta to put his plan into action. Without them, Gohan and Goten/Trunks would never have been revived, and Goku and Vegeta would have died. Please don't try to say this is a "biased opinion", because it obviously is. So is your interpretation.

Well, not really.

There are NO statements that say Gohan could beat Buu, but there are 2 distinct statements that blatantly say Buu would kill everyone.

Well aware of the quote, but Goku isn't aware of Buu making this conclusion impossible.

Why is this impossible? Again, stop throwing around biased opinions and stuff when you're the one who's not even going to bother conceding that other viewpoints could be correct. Not your viewpoint = biased opinion apparently.

How can Goku make a comment on something he doesn't know anything about. That's like saying making a comment about Beerus when he doesn't even know he exist, kinda silly, no?

[Darkprince410]

Question 1.
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

You're focusing on the wrong intention of that line. The entire back and forth that Kibitoshin and Rou Kaioushin have regarding Buu, when that line is brought up, is his nature, how he was pure evil, even after absorbing the South Kaioushin, and then became controllable once he absorbed the Dai Kaioushin.

That particular line you quoted is him stating that the goodness that he had within him from absorbing Dai Kaioushin, which was weakening him, was gone, and now his heart was back to its pure evil state from before he had absorbed the Dai Kaioushin.

Absorbing the Dai Kaioushin weakened South Kaioushin Buu and gave Buu, in general, a gentler heart. Removing the Dai Kaioushin resulted in Buu's heart returning to its pure evil nature, and returning Buu's strength to where it was before he had absorbed Dai, which was South Kaioushin Buu. Since absorbing South Kaioushin had strengthened Buu though, losing his influence would cause Buu to weaken to where he was before he had absorbed the South Kaioushin, which was Pure Buu.

That's all that line actually means. Nothing about that says he's stronger than Evil Buu or anything along those lines, simply that his heart, which he had lost because he absorbed someone that weakened him, is back to the way it was before.

No. The Elder Kaioshinn actually sends Kibito Kaioshinn to give the Earring to Goku and Vegeta. It just so happens that he shows up when Earth is being destroyed.

Gohan and the others were unconscious, with no indication on when or even if they'd regain consciousness. They were out of the picture.

There are NO statements that say Gohan could beat Buu, but there are 2 distinct statements that blatantly say Buu would kill everyone.

None of the statements need Pure Buu to be stronger than Gohan for them to still be accurate.

[Taskmaster]

Indicated by you =/= not stated. Vegeta's comment was explicitly about size, and that wasn't an oversight. Goku's comment also doesn't mention power at all. So please, let us stick to the facts and not our own biased opinions.

Goku wouldn't state that they could manage something if he didn't sense that Buu was weaker than he was when they were inside him. He flat out stated that they'd lose if they tried fighting Evil Buu as they were, with Goku specifically indicating multiple times that fusion was their only way of beating Evil Buu if they left. His statement of "we did it" confirms that they had succeeded in weakening him from where he was before.

Multiple times? Goku stated once that he couldn't beat Buu as he was - you assume it was about power, While I assume it was a matter of size.

Here is where you're wrong and why - Goku and Vegeta actually have a conversation about Buu powering up and stating "I wish he would quit doing that"

For all we know, Goku said that because of how much Buu was screaming at the time, and Goku wished he stopped screaming

Yeah, I doubt that.

No mention is made of him continuing to power up after the earlier statement, which was clearly in reference to South Kaioushin Buu.

Odd, I didn't see South Kaioshinn inside Buu, nor do I understand how Buu powers up after a pod is released. Nor do I understand how a precedent of Godly energy being incompatible with Buu powering him up. Nor do I understand how a statement AND an action that directly contradicted Goku and Vegeta's confidence is show how LESS true than what they they stated, in a scenario that happens with EVERY MAJOR Villain. Oh and the statement didn't mention power at all, at least not in my VIz copy.

Even if Goku's comment was about Buu's power decreasing, he's immediately proven wrong by Kaioshinn and Buu's actions, and the many statements that follow it.

Kibitoshin's statement doesn't indicate that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, simply that doesn't have the Dai Kaioushin's influence weakening him. That still doesn't preclude the fact that South Kaioushin's power, which was strengthening Buu, was also gone once his reversion took place. As for Buu's actions...nothing he does proves he's stronger than he was as Evil Buu.

[/quote]
I didn't see any comment about South Kaioshinn's power strengthening Buu at all, nor does it make sense that undoing the abstractions caused his power Buu's power to increase (which is exactly what Kaioshinn Stated) while decreasing. It's impossible, either his power went down with the absorption, or it when up, Kaioshinn states it increased and NOTHING about it decreasing.

Well, Goku stated this was a goal even before fusion wasn't an option. And while Herms translation suggest that Goku was speaking about about Fat Buu, he's actually surprised (and unaware) that Fat Buu is in a pod inside Buu, meaning his 'very first Buu' could be (is) just Super Buu (which would be Buu without the Kids/Piccolo absorbed) and make his statement regarding leaving small and unfused true.

No, his "very first Buu" couldn't be Evil Buu, because Goku still knows it's not the first Buu. He doesn't know about Mr. Buu being inside him, but he still knows that something happened to Buu to make him change from Fat Buu to Evil Buu. Besides, that still doesn't change that Goku states that them weakening Buu down to regular Evil Buu is only "almost there" and that he still intends for them to try and weaken Buu further. Later, once Buu's reverted completely down to Pure Buu, Goku exclaims they've done it and states that now they may be able to do something, which means that he senses Pure Buu is weaker than Evil Buu.

No sir. Goku states remove the boys and Piccolo and return Buu to the very first Buu. He doesn't mention another Buu inside of Buu until Vegeta shows Goku the pod and explains HOW Buu got absorbed. Before that, Goku never saw what happened when Buu split.

False. Kaioshin stated his power went back up (from what? His previously seen form obviously) and there would be no reason to mention a power increase and SHOW it just to be intentionally deceptive. Remember what I said about Vegeta's statement?

No, Kibitoshin specifically says that the heart he gained from absorbing someone that weakened him has returned to the way it was before, and then goes on to mention how Buu is now pure evil with no self-control at all.

If you have a full cup of beer and then someone drinks half of it. You have now have half a beer. If they refill it back to "how it was" is not an admission of beer decreasing from the HALF a beer you had before.

Basically, it's like this.

Pure Buu absorbed South Kaioushin, resulting in a power increase and no change to the nature of Buu's heart (he is still pure evil at this point). South Kaioushin Buu then absorbs Dai Kaioushin, giving Buu a gentler heart and weakening him in the process. Now, with the process reversing, Evil Buu loses all the influence of the Dai Kaioushin, resulting in his heart turning pure evil again and his power going up. Then, losing the influence of the South Kaioushin, Buu's power drops again when he reverts to Pure Buu.

You made all of this up. If Kaioshinn or someone else stated it, there would be some merit....but this is just fan theory. Just the facts please.

I'm trying to be straight forward here and not imply anything that was explicitly stated. A power decrease was NEVER mentioned. Also, Elder Kaioshinn recommend (permanent) Fusion earrings to deal with Buu, despite Gohan and the other still being alive.

Every time Rou Kaioushin brings up the Potaras for Goku and Vegeta to fight Pure Buu, Gohan and the others are either unconscious or dead, thus out of commission.

But they were alive. The others are never brought up again, including

When they arrive on the Kaioshinn planet.
When Goku states "they will think of a plan"
When Goku fights Buu, and thinks about Fusion being an option to beat Buu.
When Goku loses SSJ3 and states that 'it's only a matter of time'
When Goku and Vegeta discuss healing Good Buu
When Goku and Vegeta discuss KId Buu returning

There is NEVER an instance in any media that states or implies that Gohan could beat Buu. Not one statement.

Where was that stated? Goku and Vegeta state at least 2 or 3 different times how doomed they are when referring to this Buu, but none of them talk about his 'ferociousness'

Because every time they did make any notion they were doomed, Gohan and the boys were dead, and the moment they were brought back to life, Vegeta wanted to use a symbolic way of defeating Buu. At no point do any of them mention that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, or even suggest it. Likewise, Kibitoshin himself expressly states that Pure Buu has no self control, and doesn't mention anything about him being stronger than Evil Buu either.[/quote}

Well, they stated that NO ONE can stop Buu (and this was AFTER Gohan was revived) But they didn't state

1. That evil Buu was stronger than Pure Buu or suggest it (because saying Buu's power increased is saying it decreased?)
2. No self control in comparison to what? Did he actually state he had "self control" What was the significance of mention a power change if it wasn't relevant?

See my comments above.

Nothing about your comment changes the situation. Goku never indicated that he was going to beat Evil Buu and escape, instead simply stated that he recognizes that the only way for them to escape would be to defeat Buu. A statement about the only course of action that exists for them is a far cry from a declaration that he's going to do something.

I was going to say ditto

Didn't Vegeta express shock when he heard Goku lost and did everything in his power to stop Beerus from attacking everyone? DIdn't Vegeta (before he fought Beerus) state they were all doomed?

Vegeta was panicking the moment it was revealed to be Beerus in the first place. Likewise, as said before, Vegeta was altogether shocked by the fact that Beerus had taken out Gohan and everyone else, which should be irrelevant if Goku were stronger than them.

Are you sure? I haven't watched it in a while, but I'm positive that's not what happened.

And Why say a "full Blooded Saiy-Jin" instead of "ALL Saiy-jin" Unless of course...that wasn't the case. Gohan did nothing remarkable the whole movie (he was easily brushed aside and was NOT chosen to do the SSJG ritual, as it was stated the power of the form is based on the user. What sense would that make to have someone weaker chosen?

Because Goku's still the main hero and they wanted him in the spotlight? Besides, that argument doesn't hold any weight anyway, since Goku was only a regular Super Saiya-jin when he was pushed into god form, not Super Saiya-jin 3, and Gohan is undeniably more powerful than regular Super Saiya-jin Goku.

Wait what?
So Gohan is stronger, even though SSJ3 Goku was specifically stated as the benchmark of power? How does that make any sense?
Why would Goku be in the spotlight as a SSJ3 if he wasn't the strongest? Why would he be selected for the ritual if he wasn't the strongest?
Honestly, anyone reading this can see this isn't just a reach, it's an outright fabrication.

A Super Saiyjin 3 Gotenks. It also says that Gohan hasn't yet surpassed Goku.

No, it specifically states Gohan is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3, and didn't specify an individual. Likewise, show where it states that Gohan has yet to surpass Goku.

Are you sure? I'm sure it says Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, but say's his potential may (not IS) be more than Goku. In the same daizenshuu issue, it states that Goku is "the pure strongest in the universe"

I just showed you why this is incorrect, and hasn't held up when new material is factored in.

Except what you've shown is inconsistent with what is shown in the manga.

[/quote]
Completely consistent with what I've seen in the manga. :Shrug:

[Taskmaster]

You're focusing on the wrong intention of that line. The entire back and forth that Kibitoshin and Rou Kaioushin have regarding Buu, when that line is brought up, is his nature, how he was pure evil, (and more powerful, they mention power) even after absorbing the South Kaioushin, and then became controllable once he absorbed the Dai Kaioushin.

That particular line you quoted is him stating that the goodness that he had within him from absorbing Dai Kaioushin, which was weakening him, was gone, and now his heart was back to its pure evil state from before he had absorbed the Dai Kaioushin.

Absorbing the Dai Kaioushin weakened South Kaioushin Buu and gave Buu, in general, a gentler heart. Removing the Dai Kaioushin resulted in Buu's heart returning to its pure evil nature, and returning Buu's strength to where it was before he had absorbed Dai, which was South Kaioushin Buu. Since absorbing South Kaioushin had strengthened Buu though, losing his influence would cause Buu to weaken to where he was before he had absorbed the South Kaioushin, which was Pure Buu.

That's all that line actually means. Nothing about that says he's stronger than Evil Buu or anything along those lines, simply that his heart, which he had lost because he absorbed someone that weakened him, is back to the way it was before.

No I'm not. It states what it states, but it doesn't distinguish between this south kaioshinn and power increase/decrease stuff you keep mentioning. If the power increase wasn't relevant (and was a net DECREASE in power) Kaioshinn would have said so and Fusion wouldn't have been needed.

[Darkprince410]

Multiple times? Goku stated once that he couldn't beat Buu as he was - you assume it was about power, While I assume it was a matter of size.

Goku isn't one to judge an opponent based on his physical appearance if he's able to sense their ki, and hasn't done so when it comes to opponents even smaller than Pure Buu. We see he clearly doesn't underestimate or make light over Freeza's true form, despite Freeza being shown as smaller physically than Pure Buu. If Pure Buu were emitting a ki level even higher than Evil Buu, who Goku readily admitted he and Vegeta stood no chance of beating, he certainly wasn't going to think he stood a chance.

As for multiple times. He states it once right after Gohan and the others' cocoons are removed (berating Vegeta for having destroyed the Potara and then bringing up the dance), and again when Evil Buu formed the miniature version of himself. So that's twice where he brings up using the Potaras for Evil Buu, as opposed to the one time when he passively comments that using the Potaras for Pure Buu would let him destroy Buu with a single blast.

Odd, I didn't see South Kaioshinn inside Buu, nor do I understand how Buu powers up after a pod is released. Nor do I understand how a precedent of Godly energy being incompatible with Buu powering him up. Nor do I understand how a statement AND an action that directly contradicted Goku and Vegeta's confidence is show how LESS true than what they they stated, in a scenario that happens with EVERY MAJOR Villain. Oh and the statement didn't mention power at all, at least not in my VIz copy.

Explain the appearance of South Kaioushin Buu then. Kibitoshin and Rou Kaioushin explicitly state that the large, bulky Buu we see when Buu reverts from Evil Buu to Pure Buu is the form he took when he absorbed the South Kaioushin, and we see in every other situation of Buu changing form, that it's in result to a change in the ki that is influencing him. When Gotenks separated, Gotenks Buu changed to Piccolo Buu, same as with Gohan Buu changing to Piccolo Buu when Gohan's cocoon was cut free. Every time we see such a form change is when a different ki is influencing him, so the only logical reason that we would see Buu change into South Kaioushin Buu is because the South Kaioushin's ki is the dominant ki affecting him. Why is it affecting him? We don't know, but the fact remains that given all the facts shown, it clearly has to be.

Likewise, none of the statements or actions contradict Goku's confidence or indicate Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu.

No sir. Goku states remove the boys and Piccolo and return Buu to the very first Buu. He doesn't mention another Buu inside of Buu until Vegeta shows Goku the pod and explains HOW Buu got absorbed. Before that, Goku never saw what happened when Buu split.

That's irrelevant that he doesn't know that there were two Buus and one absorbed the other. Goku knows that Fat Buu is the form of Buu that came from the cocoon that Babi-di had, and that something happened that caused Fat Buu to become Evil Buu. He doesn't know the details of it, but he still knows it happened. As such, no matter what. He can't consider Evil Buu the first one of all. This is confirmed by the fact that he states that they're only "almost there" when it comes to Evil Buu, meaning that their goal is something below Evil Buu in terms of power.

If you have a full cup of beer and then someone drinks half of it. You have now have half a beer. If they refill it back to "how it was" is not an admission of beer decreasing from the HALF a beer you had before.

Not a good analogy. A better analogy would be this. You have a cup of beer and someone hands you another cup of beer (this symbolizes Buu absorbing South Kaioushin). Then someone comes along and pours water into both cups of beer, which weakens the beer (this is Buu absorbing Dai Kaioushin). Somehow, you figure out a way of removing that water without removing any of the beer along with it, thus you are returning it to the way it was before it was weakened (the removal of the Dai Kaioushin's influence). Then you lose your second cup of beer again and are stuck with your first (the removal of the South Kaioushin's influence). Your beer is as strong as it was before the guy came along and poured water into it, which fulfills everything that Kibitoshin's line mentions, you simply just have nowhere near the overall beer you did before.

Why would Goku be in the spotlight as a SSJ3 if he wasn't the strongest? Why would he be selected for the ritual if he wasn't the strongest?

Because he's the main hero, and Gohan's been pushed to the side before to make Goku the main hero, even when Gohan was clearly stronger then as well. Besides, like I indicated, Gohan still had his Rou Kaioushin power-up at this time, yet for the ritual it is instead given to Goku as a regular Super Saiya-jin. So when they were coming up with the notion of the whole Ssj God ritual, it clearly wasn't taking into account strongest states. If Goku had transformed into Super Saiya-jin 3 and whatnot, then there might have been some evidence to back up your claim, but he's just there as a regular Super Saiya-jin. So unless you're indicating that you think that pre-god Ssj Goku was stronger than Gohan, then Goku being the recipient of the ritual wasn't because he was the strongest.

Are you sure? I'm sure it says Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, but say's his potential may (not IS) be more than Goku. In the same daizenshuu issue, it states that Goku is "the pure strongest in the universe"

From the DB Ultimate Collection Round 2, an anime guide book at that, it states that Gohan has "fantastic power surpassing even Super Saiyan 3".

As for that "pure strongest in the universe", as I've mentioned before, there's no time frame given for it. You can't arbitrarily put a time frame on a statement when there's no point of reference for it, so you saying that it clearly means that Goku was stronger than Gohan during the events of the Buu Saga is effectively meaningless. In situations like that, where there's no time frame given, it's best to assume the last time we see the characters in general, which would be after the ten year skip.

No I'm not. It states what it states, but it doesn't distinguish between this south kaioshinn and power increase/decrease stuff you keep mentioning. If the power increase wasn't relevant (and was a net DECREASE in power) Kaioshinn would have said so and Fusion wouldn't have been needed.

Given that Kibitoshin's entire statement was in regards to Pure Buu's heart returning to pure evil, with the power change being practically an afterthought, there's no reason for it not to be mentioned. Likewise, Goku's comment regarding the Potaras when it came to Pure Buu was strictly due to him not being able to make any headway against Buu's stamina, nothing regarding his strength (which wasn't the case with Evil Buu, as Goku just flat out states that that they're no match for him).

When it comes to Rou Kaioushin wanting them to use the earrings, it's convenient how he makes no mention that they can't win without them, just that it'll be an "easy victory" if they use the earrings. That clearly means that he doesn't see Pure Buu as being so powerful that he doesn't think Goku could fight him on his own, simply that it'd be a snap if they did it as Vegetto, whereas a fight between Goku and Buu would be drawn out, with untold levels of damage as a result. Rou Kaioushin felt it best for them to take Buu out immediately rather than drag things out and have fun, which is why he pushed for the earrings.

[Truhan]

I just don't see why Akira Toriyama, off all people who have drawn before, would make Buff Buu less powerful than Kid Buu with his bulk in a context of absorption (when South Kaioshin was absorbed) and in another where Goku was expecting him to be less powerful, but was surprised (due to his growing power). Whenever the statement is vague, look at the god damn panel! (Also, wouldn't it be strange to portray Buff Buu as the starting character transforming into Kid Buu in a Budokai game?)

I mean, let us not cling to statements and throw away artistic integrity. I know that a Full Power SSJ has less bulk than a Grade 2 or Grade 3 SSJ, but the context of their transformations was different, because you didn't see Goku or Gohan go from SSJ Grade 2 to Grade 3 and only then unleash their Full Power. However, Buff Buu increased in size from Super Buu with a stated power increase. He loses that bulk with an implied Ki loss by Goku, so it all ties together.

Freeza was smaller than his 2nd and 3rd forms, but these were merely a shell getting deformed from his 1st form, until he finally broke it to reveal his true self. What supports this isn't only the anime scene, in case you are wondering, but the fact that his tail appeared complete when it was cut during the previous mutations. We don't see Buff Buu exploding to reveal Kid Buu inside, and we don't see him shape shifting for it to be an argument either, but we know that he transformed, again, like he used to.

Furthermore, Goku had shown throughout his plan to weaken Buu that he cared about his Ki, from sensing it inside of Buu, to noticing its increase when outside, with an implied decrease for last. Vegeta judged him by his size and build, from a scrawny Buu (who would most likely beat him) to a small version, who was outside his league (as well).

[Taskmaster]

Goku isn't one to judge an opponent based on his physical appearance if he's able to sense their ki,[/auote]
Except the story has him doing JUST that. Regardless if you think it's out of his characterization to do that, he does. We Know Goku is wrong because Kaioshinn actually tells the view that a stronger more evil Buu appears.

This is a direct contradiction to Goku & Vegeta's statement, and a PERFECT example of foreshadowing.

and hasn't done so when it comes to opponents even smaller than Pure Buu. We see he clearly doesn't underestimate or make light over Freeza's true form, despite Freeza being shown as smaller physically than Pure Buu. If Pure Buu were emitting a ki level even higher than Evil Buu, who Goku readily admitted he and Vegeta stood no chance of beating, he certainly wasn't going to think he stood a chance.

Actually, that's exactly what happens. Vegeta never stood a chance at beating Buu and Goku laments over the fact that he underestimated Buu and overestimated himself.

As for multiple times. He states it once right after Gohan and the others' cocoons are removed (berating Vegeta for having destroyed the Potara and then bringing up the dance), and again when Evil Buu formed the miniature version of himself. So that's twice where he brings up using the Potaras for Evil Buu, as opposed to the one time when he passively comments that using the Potaras for Pure Buu would let him destroy Buu with a single blast.

Good thing I have my handy managa in front of me to confirm.

1st time fusion is mention: Goku mentions fusion to Vegeta when they first arrive and unfuse from Vegetto. They state they want to save the boys and revert Buu back to the very first one, and there is no guarantee that it will work (meaning, Buu will retain his Gohan/Gotenks power)

2nd time: (this is the one often quoted)Goku points out to Vegeta that they can't leave Buu's body "like this" and win. While some assume that "like this" denotes fusion, I assume it means Goku's size. For one thing, when Goku attempts to leave Buu's body, is the one who Buu tells Goku (and the reader) that he's smaller than a flea and thus can't hurt him.

3rd time: Goku tells Vegeta that they could have used the earring to make light work of someone like Buu (you are correct on this)

Explain the appearance of South Kaioushin Buu then. Kibitoshin and Rou Kaioushin explicitly state that the large, bulky Buu we see when Buu reverts from Evil Buu to Pure Buu is the form he took when he absorbed the South Kaioushin, and we see in every other situation of Buu changing form, that it's in result to a change in the ki that is influencing him. When Gotenks separated, Gotenks Buu changed to Piccolo Buu, same as with Gohan Buu changing to Piccolo Buu when Gohan's cocoon was cut free. Every time we see such a form change is when a different ki is influencing him, so the only logical reason that we would see Buu change into South Kaioushin Buu is because the South Kaioushin's ki is the dominant ki affecting him. Why is it affecting him? We don't know, but the fact remains that given all the facts shown, it clearly has to be.

I'm not here to speculate. It doesn't say anything about South Kaioshinn, his power or effects on Buu. We are told/shown that Kaioshinn power isn't comparable with Buu and we are told that the end result of Buu's transformation is a power increase and a personality change.

Likewise, none of the statements or actions contradict Goku's confidence or indicate Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu.

Kaioshinn's comments directly contridict Goku's statements.

That's irrelevant that he doesn't know that there were two Buus and one absorbed the other. Goku knows that Fat Buu is the form of Buu that came from the cocoon that Babi-di had, and that something happened that caused Fat Buu to become Evil Buu. He doesn't know the details of it, but he still knows it happened. As such, no matter what. He can't consider Evil Buu the first one of all. This is confirmed by the fact that he states that they're only "almost there" when it comes to Evil Buu, meaning that their goal is something below Evil Buu in terms of power.

Actually, Goku doesn't know this at all, he is surprised to see Buu inside of his body, Vegeta actually explains to him HOW it happened because Goku never witnessed the transformation.

Not a good analogy. A better analogy would be this. You have a cup of beer and someone hands you another cup of beer (this symbolizes Buu absorbing South Kaioushin). Then someone comes along and pours water into both cups of beer, which weakens the beer (this is Buu absorbing Dai Kaioushin). Somehow, you figure out a way of removing that water without removing any of the beer along with it, thus you are returning it to the way it was before it was weakened (the removal of the Dai Kaioushin's influence). Then you lose your second cup of beer again and are stuck with your first (the removal of the South Kaioushin's influence). Your beer is as strong as it was before the guy came along and poured water into it, which fulfills everything that Kibitoshin's line mentions, you simply just have nowhere near the overall beer you did before.

I'm not going to debate you on fan logic/theory.
Buu was stated by Kaioshinn to be more evil and more powerful, since South Kaioshinn supposedly had no effect on his personality, wouldn't he be just as evil and MORE powerful than Kid Buu based on that statement?

Of course, that's just one of the many holes in the logic, so I'll just defer to the manga on this one. It's stated that Buu went back to his full strength and became more evil than he was, and I'll stick with it.

Because he's the main hero, and Gohan's been pushed to the side before to make Goku the main hero, even when Gohan was clearly stronger then as well. Besides, like I indicated, Gohan still had his Rou Kaioushin power-up at this time, yet for the ritual it is instead given to Goku as a regular Super Saiya-jin. So when they were coming up with the notion of the whole Ssj God ritual, it clearly wasn't taking into account strongest states. If Goku had transformed into Super Saiya-jin 3 and whatnot, then there might have been some evidence to back up your claim, but he's just there as a regular Super Saiya-jin. So unless you're indicating that you think that pre-god Ssj Goku was stronger than Gohan, then Goku being the recipient of the ritual wasn't because he was the strongest.

You're not arguing with me on this point, it was stated by Toriyama that the stronger the base user, the stronger the transformation.

From the DB Ultimate Collection Round 2, an anime guide book at that, it states that Gohan has "fantastic power surpassing even a Super Saiyan 3".

Isn't that the same book that list Pure Buu as the strongest in the universe? Or is that the one where is states that Goku has respect towards the strongest Buu

As for that "pure strongest in the universe", as I've mentioned before, there's no time frame given for it. You can't arbitrarily put a time frame on a statement when there's no point of reference for it, so you saying that it clearly means that Goku was stronger than Gohan during the events of the Buu Saga is effectively meaningless. In situations like that, where there's no time frame given, it's best to assume the last time we see the characters in general, which would be after the ten year skip.

So you assume it's after a 10 year skip where no indication about any of the fighters powers are given, and I assume it flows well with the story, Dragon Ball Super, BOG and the movies that Goku is just stronger. I do have all the media on my side.

Given that Kibitoshin's entire statement was in regards to Pure Buu's heart returning to pure evil, with the power change being practically an afterthought, there's no reason for it not to be mentioned. Likewise, Goku's comment regarding the Potaras when it came to Pure Buu was strictly due to him not being able to make any headway against Buu's stamina, nothing regarding his strength (which wasn't the case with Evil Buu, as Goku just flat out states that that they're no match for him).

You're back tracking. First it was Goku didn't underestimate Buu (which he clearly did) and he was right about his analysis. Now you agree that he did underestimate him, but think it wasn't a matter of his power? Well, and underestimation is just that, and Goku did state that he couldn't finish Buu off because he (Buu) hasn't given him the time to do so. He goes on to state that he "thought things would go better than this" and that "Vegetto would be able to do it"

When it comes to Rou Kaioushin wanting them to use the earrings, it's convenient how he makes no mention that they can't win without them, just that it'll be an "easy victory" if they use the earrings.

I don't recall that, I just see him stating "quick, give them your Potara" and nothing more.
Later on he chastises Goku and Vegeta for refusing the earrings, and again for refusing doing the fusion dance/attacking Buu together.

That clearly means that he doesn't see Pure Buu as being so powerful that he doesn't think Goku could fight him on his own, simply that it'd be a snap if they did it as Vegetto, whereas a fight between Goku and Buu would be drawn out, with untold levels of damage as a result. Rou Kaioushin felt it best for them to take Buu out immediately rather than drag things out and have fun, which is why he pushed for the earrings.

[/quote]

That's actually not what's said, and you built that assumption on faulty/incorrect information.

[Taskmaster]

I just don't see why Akira Toriyama, off all people who have drawn before, would make Buff Buu less powerful than Kid Buu with his bulk in a context of absorption (when South Kaioshin was absorbed) and in another where Goku was expecting him to be less powerful, but was surprised (due to his growing power). Whenever the statement is vague, look at the god damn panel! (Also, wouldn't it be strange to portray Buff Buu as the starting character transforming into Kid Buu in a Budokai game?)

I mean, let us not cling to statements and throw away artistic integrity. I know that a Full Power SSJ has less bulk than a Grade 2 or Grade 3 SSJ, but the context of their transformations was different, because you didn't see Goku or Gohan go from SSJ Grade 2 to Grade 3 and only then unleash their Full Power. However, Buff Buu increased in size from Super Buu with a stated power increase. He loses that bulk with an implied Ki loss by Goku, so it all ties together.

At the same time, this is a trend that Toriyama has always used. 2nd and 3rd for Freeza were bulkier, but weaker than 4th form. Nappa was weaker than Vegeta, 2nd for Cell weaker than Perfect Cell, Fat Buu weaker than Super Buu, Super Buu weaker than Pure Buu.

You're attempting to say Toriyma threw one panel about a guy who really wasn't relevant to to story in any meaningful way as definitive proof of Buu's increase in power (and then supposed decrease)

But your theory doesn't explain why Kaioshinn didn't state that Buu's power decreased. He states the end result of the transformation into Pure Buu was his power going back up to it's original level and him gaining back his original heart. It's a comparison of Buu to his previous forms, and nothing that Kiaoshinn states is proven false.

You can't use Goku's statements PRIOR as a way to overrived new information. It's easier for me to believe (and from a narrative standpoint makes more sense) that Buu's transformation into Pure Buu was an increase in power, just like Kaioshinn states.

Freeza was smaller than his 2nd and 3rd forms, but these were merely a shell getting deformed from his 1st form, until he finally broke it to reveal his true self. What supports this isn't only the anime scene, in case you are wondering, but the fact that his tail appeared complete when it was cut during the previous mutations. We don't see Buff Buu exploding to reveal Kid Buu inside, and we don't see him shape shifting for it to be an argument either, but we know that he transformed, again, like he used to.

What? This makes no sense to me, sorry.

You're trying to draw a distinction between Frieza's forms/transformation and Buu. When Frieza transformed, his power increased, when Buu did it his power increase. How it appeared durning the transformation process is irrelevant. They are two different characters, they aren't going to look the same when they transform.

Furthermore, Goku had shown throughout his plan to weaken Buu that he cared about his Ki, from sensing it inside of Buu, to noticing its increase when outside, with an implied decrease for last. Vegeta judged him by his size and build, from a scrawny Buu (who would most likely beat him) to a small version, who was outside his league (as well).

There is NO stated decrease. None.
Vegeta admits that he underestimated Buu, Goku admits he underestimated Buu and overestimated himself, and Kaioshinn stated that Buu's transformation was an increase in power for Buu.

At no time do they state that Buu was weakened with his transformation, and the line about Goku stating "we did it" comes after a conversation about how he wishes Buu would stop transforming.

[singsing]

Stop double posting Taskmaster, the edit button exists for a reason. Add onto your previous post or wait for another poster to respond. It's also getting really hard to debate with someone who refuses to concede any other opinion could possibly be valid. Dude, just because you think something is irrefutable doesn't mean everyone else does.

At no time do they state that Buu was weakened with his transformation, and the line about Goku stating "we did it" comes after a conversation about how he wishes Buu would stop transforming.

I'll toss one of your responses right back at you. How can Goku make a comment about something he knows nothing about? How does Goku know Boo is done transforming? Kind of odd, isn't it?

[Taskmaster]

At no time do they state that Buu was weakened with his transformation, and the line about Goku stating "we did it" comes after a conversation about how he wishes Buu would stop transforming.

I'll toss one of your responses right back at you. How can Goku make a comment about something he knows nothing about? How does Goku know Boo is done transforming? Kind of odd, isn't it?

Not really, Buu is shown to be no longer transforming.

[Truhan]

At the same time, this is a trend that Toriyama has always used. 2nd and 3rd for Freeza were bulkier, but weaker than 4th form. Nappa was weaker than Vegeta, 2nd for Cell weaker than Perfect Cell, Fat Buu weaker than Super Buu, Super Buu weaker than Pure Buu.

Nappa didn't transform, which is the context at hand, so don't even compare him to another character. Fat Buu was, well... Fat, which shows that he is less capable of fighting than his other forms. Freeza had bulked up with a shape that he got rid off, judging by the tail that didn't regenerate. Cell had completely different shapes though his absorptions, but he did bulk up in front of Trunks and Gohan for power, with the same form. Super Buu is not weaker than Kid Buu, period.

You can't use Goku's statements PRIOR as a way to overrived new information. It's easier for me to believe (and from a narrative standpoint makes more sense) that Buu's transformation into Pure Buu was an increase in power, just like Kaioshinn states.

No, but I can use Goku's prior statements to condition the new ones. Case in point: everyone else would have done in without Mr. Satan and Majin Buu's help. This doesn't relate to Gohan and Gotenks more than whoever was alive at the time before they were revided, because without Mr. Satan and Majin Buu, they wouldn't be able to ask Porunga to revive everyone and come up with the Genki-dama. The latest case scenario of Gohan and Gotenks being done in is less true than the previous one, because of the sequence order. In this example, it's the order of events.

You're trying to draw a distinction between Freeza's forms/transformation and Buu. When Freeza transformed, his power increased, when Buu did it his power increase. How it appeared durning the transformation process is irrelevant. They are two different characters, they aren't going to look the same when they transform.

No, it's not irrelevant at all. I'll use images to support statements, not just statements taken at face value. And you seem to care that the comparison doesn't have value when you tried to use the same before. Just goes to show...

There is NO stated decrease. None.
Vegeta admits that he underestimated Buu, Goku admits he underestimated Buu and overestimated himself, and Kaioshinn stated that Buu's transformation was an increase in power for Buu.

At no time do they state that Buu was weakened with his transformation, and the line about Goku stating "we did it" comes after a conversation about how he wishes Buu would stop transforming.

And I didn't say that Goku stated, I said that it was implied by his statement that there was a power decrease, following his prior examples of when Majin Buu was transforming and changing his Ki, judging by the panels and statements.

[Darkprince410]

Except the story has him doing JUST that. Regardless if you think it's out of his characterization to do that, he does. We Know Goku is wrong because Kaioshinn actually tells the view that a stronger more evil Buu appears.

Given that Goku never states or indicates that he underestimated Pure Buu's power, and that Kibitoshin doesn't say that Pure Buu is more powerful than Evil Buu, then your idea of "foreshadowing" is baseless. Goku only remarks that he overestimated himself because he thought he could overcome Buu's stamina, nothing regarding Buu's actual strength, and Kibitoshin's entire statement I've already explained anyway.

Actually, that's exactly what happens. Vegeta never stood a chance at beating Buu and Goku laments over the fact that he underestimated Buu and overestimated himself.

He only overestimated his ability to overcoming Buu's stamina. At no point does Goku mention or suggest he underestimated Buu's strength at all.

2nd time: (this is the one often quoted)Goku points out to Vegeta that they can't leave Buu's body "like this" and win. While some assume that "like this" denotes fusion, I assume it means Goku's size. For one thing, when Goku attempts to leave Buu's body, is the one who Buu tells Goku (and the reader) that he's smaller than a flea and thus can't hurt him.

However, given that Goku believed that he was capable of blasting a hole in Buu's body, and had to be informed that he was smaller than a flea, that means that beforehand, he wasn't aware of any kind of strength decrease from becoming smaller. In addition, since Goku was stating that they couldn't beat him upon escaping, and there's no notion that Goku believed they'd remain small upon leaving, then there's no reason to assume that Goku was referring to their physical size.

I'm not here to speculate. It doesn't say anything about South Kaioshinn, his power or effects on Buu. We are told/shown that Kaioshinn power isn't comparable with Buu and we are told that the end result of Buu's transformation is a power increase and a personality change.

We are told that all absorptions involve a power increase and a personality change, and then we are told that Dai Kaioushin was an exception to this, as it resulted in a power decrease. If South Kaioushin's absorption behaved in any way different than what normally happens, then some mention or indication would have been made. However, Kibitoshin skims past it to go right to telling about the absorption that did affect Buu differently, which supports that South Kaioushin's absorption didn't affect Buu different.

So again, explain why South Kaioushin Buu is there. Given all the other evidence shown regarding absorptions, the only reason it is there is to show that Buu is now being affected most strongly by the South Kaioushin's influence.

Kaioshinn's comments directly contridict Goku's statements.

Except Kibitoshin's comment doesn't say that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, and I've explained what his entire statement is actually about.

Actually, Goku doesn't know this at all, he is surprised to see Buu inside of his body, Vegeta actually explains to him HOW it happened because Goku never witnessed the transformation.

What do you mean he doesn't know it at all? He clearly knows that the Fat Buu is the one that came out of the cocoon Babi-di unearthed, and knows that, somehow, Buu changed into Evil Buu. He both makes a comment regarding Buu's ki and later sees Buu's new appearance while viewing events using Rou Kaioushin's crystal ball. All that Goku doesn't know is the specifics of how Fat Buu became Evil Buu. So therefore he knows that the Evil Buu isn't the first one of all, since he knows Fat Buu came before him.

Buu was stated by Kaioshinn to be more evil and more powerful, since South Kaioshinn supposedly had no effect on his personality, wouldn't he be just as evil and MORE powerful than Kid Buu based on that statement?

You can deny my analogy all you want, but it covers what is shown in the manga perfectly. Pure Buu absorbed the South Kaioushin, which resulted in a form change and a power increase, but didn't affect the purity of his heart (the purity being clearly stated). South Kaioushin Buu then absorbed Dai Kaioushin, which weakened him and gave him a gentler heart. With the effects of the Kaioushins' influences reversing as he reverted from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, he lost the influence that was weakening him and giving him a gentler heart, which resulted in him turning back into South Kaioushin Buu. Then he lost the South Kaioushin's influence, which resulted in him losing all the power he gained from absorbing him.

You're not arguing with me on this point, it was stated by Toriyama that the stronger the base user, the stronger the transformation.

And since Gohan's post-power up state is his new base, then Gohan would be more powerful than Goku, and thus should have been the choice for the god ritual. Given that he wasn't though, we must infer that Toriyama and the other writers simply wanted Goku as the lead in the movie, regardless of there being a more suitable candidate for the task.

So you assume it's after a 10 year skip where no indication about any of the fighters powers are given, and I assume it flows well with the story, Dragon Ball Super, BOG and the movies that Goku is just stronger. I do have all the media on my side.

Given that Goku is, in his base form, shown fighting the reincarnation of a being he had a difficult time fighting as Super Saiya-jin 3 ten years ago, then yes, there is an indication of his strength. Likewise, neither Super, BoG, or any other piece of the new media establish Goku is stronger than Gohan.

You're back tracking. First it was Goku didn't underestimate Buu (which he clearly did) and he was right about his analysis. Now you agree that he did underestimate him, but think it wasn't a matter of his power? Well, and underestimation is just that, and Goku did state that he couldn't finish Buu off because he (Buu) hasn't given him the time to do so. He goes on to state that he "thought things would go better than this" and that "Vegetto would be able to do it"

He never underestimated his power, and I've never deviated from that notion at all. All he ever did was overestimate his ability to make headway against Buu's stamina. It's no different than Piccolo's fight with #17, where they are established to be equal in strength, but due to #17's stamina not depleting, Piccolo wasn't making any headway against him and would have lost in the end. Goku and Buu are the same situation. Goku was shown to be equal with Buu in terms of power, but due to the rapid depletion of his ki due to Ssj3 and that Buu's stamina wasn't dropping at all, he wasn't making any headway and would have lost in the end.

I don't recall that, I just see him stating "quick, give them your Potara" and nothing more.

Elder Kaioshin: “…Hey…Give your Potara to Goku and Vegeta! If they merge again, then this should be an easy victory!”

That's actually not what's said, and you built that assumption on faulty/incorrect information.

By faulty/incorrect information, you mean what the manga shows...okay. At no point does Rou Kaioushin indicate or suggest that Goku and Vegeta fusing would be the only way they'd win, simply that it'd be the easiest and quickest way.

At no time do they state that Buu was weakened with his transformation, and the line about Goku stating "we did it" comes after a conversation about how he wishes Buu would stop transforming.

You're making a baseless assumption as to what context Goku said he wished Buu would stop doing that. Buu's continued transformation is neither stated nor even implied to be the reason that he said that. You saying that he said that in regards to wishing that Buu stopped transforming is no different than me saying that he wished Buu would stop screaming uncontrollably.

[Truhan]

I'd just like to ask that, from now on, everyone tries to make their point with full paragraphs, addressing everyone's assumptions and theories. It's getting hard to play this fact whoring game when posts are divided in so many pieces, to the point where information is ignored, misinterpreted, etc.

[Taskmaster]

I'm pressed for time, so I'll makes this quick.

Nappa didn't transform, which is the context at hand, so don't even compare him to another character. Fat Buu was, well... Fat, which shows that he is less capable of fighting than his other forms. Freeza had bulked up with a shape that he got rid off, judging by the tail that didn't regenerate.

I don't know why you feel the need to make the distinction about "transformations" and physical size. it's a Shōnen manga, the larger opponent is supposed to look more intimidating than a smaller foe, but the exact opposite is true. I gave 4 specific examples of such, and didn't even get into SSJ stages/Bulk that actually proved to be weaker than the standard SSJ.

It's a reoccurring theme, and I don't see Buu's transformation changing a precedent set long before it.

No, but I can use Goku's prior statements to condition the new ones. Case in point: everyone else would have done in without Mr. Satan and Majin Buu's help. This doesn't relate to Gohan and Gotenks more than whoever was alive at the time before they were revided, because without Mr. Satan and Majin Buu, they wouldn't be able to ask Porunga to revive everyone and come up with the Genki-dama. The latest case scenario of Gohan and Gotenks being done in is less true than the previous one, because of the sequence order. In this example, it's the order of events.

Well, this isn't exactly true. Goku mention 2 times specifically that they and 'everyone else' would be done in. They very well could have revived Gohan and the others without Satan and Buu's help (and they kinda did) AND the boys were alive at the formation of the Spirit Bomb (obviously)

No, you really can't. By that measure, am I to assume that Gohan is still no match for Fat Buu based on what happened many chapters ago?
So Yes, Satan and Buu did help buy Goku time to complete the spirit bomb, but if their sacrifice wasn't necessary or not worthy, it wouldn't be worth mentioning.
That also brings me to the point: What if they failed? The statement indicates that if Satan wasn't there, then Buu couldn't be stopped even by Gohan. Vegeta goes on to state that if Buu were to return, it would be the end of everyone.

No, it's not irrelevant at all. I'll use images to support statements, not just statements taken at face value. And you seem to care that the comparison doesn't have value when you tried to use the same before. Just goes to show...

What? I just don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Bigger doesn't mean more powerful,and if anything it means LESS powerful in DBZ. I pointed out 4 examples, Frieza's final form was smaller than his previous forms, Cell's Perfect form was smaller than his second, and his BULKED up state technically was inferior to his normal state. Same with Ascended SSJ vs a normal SS, and the same with Buu.

And I didn't say that Goku stated, I said that it was implied by his statement that there was a power decrease, following his prior examples of when Majin Buu was transforming and changing his Ki, judging by the panels and statements.

But the problem with that implication is it's made off of a statement 10 pages back and ignores the conversation Goku is having with Vegeta. It's also used (by you and others) as a way to ignore a BLATANT statement made a few panels later.