Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The castle example would still work well if Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Super Saiyan 3. The power of Super Saiyan 3 is weaker than Rageta, but both are still ants compared to Super Saiyan God. Remember, Super Vegito is nothing to Beers and still dimensions greater than Super Saiyan 3. There's a lot of room for Base Goku and Vegeta to be far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 and yet still be far from Super Saiyan God level.

[ssbgoku]

The castle example would still work well if Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Super Saiyan 3. The power of Super Saiyan 3 is weaker than Rageta, but both are still ants compared to Super Saiyan God. Remember, Super Vegito is nothing to Beers and still dimensions greater than Super Saiyan 3. There's a lot of room for Base Goku and Vegeta to be far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 and yet still be far from Super Saiyan God level.

Yet neither base goku or vegeta compared themselves to ssj vegito level as they are supposed to know how powerfull he was. Goku calling buu crazy strong even if he meant enraged majin buu then still ultimate gohan would stretch but possible for them to be at this level after champa arc. None of characters compared even Final form frieeza to majin buu's forms so it is hard to say. Enraged vegeta was only mentioned to suprass ssj3 goku and even if he was ultimate gohan level but from buu arc, then still. Also Goku never said for base vegeta to suprass his enraged form...

Also Picoolo was not scared of First form frost, well he only became concerned once frost reached assault form, so it just means Assault form frost would be below ssj3 goku... but close possible. Base Cabba didn't scare Picoolo either... Hard to say about Magenta, but Picoolo was disappointed but shocked about Botamo's resistance to goku.

[Bullza]

Base Vegeta is likely above Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta.

Thinking about it now, Goku was there when Vegeta became Enraged, I think, he was watching the whole time in the movie but I can't remember in the series, either way he should have been able to sense him regardless and know how strong he was.

But then when Goku met Vegeta on Beerus' planet he commented that he'd powered up hugely to the point that he didn't even recognise him at first.

Wouldn't that suggest that Base Vegeta > Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta.

[ssbgoku]

Base Vegeta is likely above Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta.

Thinking about it now, Goku was there when Vegeta became Enraged, I think, he was watching the whole time in the movie but I can't remember in the series, either way he should have been able to sense him regardless and know how strong he was.

But then when Goku met Vegeta on Beerus' planet he commented that he'd powered up hugely to the point that he didn't even recognise him at first.

Wouldn't that suggest that Base Vegeta > Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta.

Yeah, but it could be also case:

"whoa !, vegeta you have powered up so much in base, I can not even imagine how powerfull your transformation woulde be", it points more towards:

ssj vegeta whis training > enraged ssj2 vegeta if either.

[TheMikado]

Super contains too many contradictions to do a proper power scaling. For example, Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, but not Frieza's. If Super abided by the laws of real life, yes Goku in Base > pre-BoG SSJ3. But we don't know if it was just a filler scene, and how much thought the scriptwriters and Toriyama put into it.

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

If you're referring to God-off and God-on, I think that's the only theory that would make sense. If they had God-on the whole time, going to SSJ would mean automatically going to SSJ Blue.

I thought to two base theory was still going strong since there was nothing to outright disprove it?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Not really. The manga hasn't touched Goku absorbing the SSG power yet, and if we go by both movies & Super manga, the only way for consistency to exist is if there are 2 base forms.

[Bullza]

I thought to two base theory was still going strong since there was nothing to outright disprove it?

Nah that was mainly just nonsense to try and explain why Piccolo seemed so strong but I suppose there was more to it when you thought about it.

There's no two base theory. There's never been anything said about such a thing in the series even at this point which is now an entire two arcs after the idea of it should have come about. There's been plenty of chances for them to bring it up, like with the Hit fight and there was nothing.

No there's the base Goku after the Beerus fight and that's the only one. Simple and straightforward.

[LightBing]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Not really. The manga hasn't touched Goku absorbing the SSG power yet, and if we go by both movies & Super manga, the only way for consistency to exist is if there are 2 base forms.

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed it. There was only one opportunity to show it, if it isn't there it didn't happen. Even if the BoG arc in the manga was shortened, the absorption was a very important plot point. No way would Toyotarõ just skip over it.

In the manga the base Saiyans can be anywhere.

[Lord Beerus]

In the manga the base Saiyans can be anywhere.

So as far as the anime and manga is concerned, the base Saiyans are as strong as the plot needs them to be

[ZombieVito]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Not really. The manga hasn't touched Goku absorbing the SSG power yet, and if we go by both movies & Super manga, the only way for consistency to exist is if there are 2 base forms.

Goku fought Hit (a god tier fighter) in base without an aura in the manga too.

It's dead.

[apex_pretador]

After a long thought, I've finally decided to do a proper power level list for super.

Initial considerations:

Beerus' power level could be incorrect, because, well, just because.
It includes both manga and anime, considering both of them, no ridiculous two base theory.

Some inconsistencies will be ignored.

Multipliers:

- Super saiyan = 25x base
- Super Saiyan (mastered) = 50x base
- x10 Kaioken = 10x power level


Quick references:
Namek Freeza (healthy, 100%) = 120,000,000

Perfect cell (full power) = 1,200,000,000

Kid buu (serious) = 12,000,000,000

Buuhan = 45,000,000,000

SS vegetto = 200,000,000,000
Battle of gods arc:

Piccolo (weights) = 700,000,000
Gohan = 25,000,000,000 (FP)
Gotenks = 7,000,000,000 (SS) , 21,000,000,000 (SS3)
SS3 goku = 28,000,000,000
SS2 Vegeta = 7,000,000,000 , Enraged = 140,000,000,000 , Galick gun = 160,000,000,000
Fat buu = 5,600,000,000
Beerus (suppresed) = 65,000,000,000 , goku's expectation = 300,000,000,000 , power up = 940,000,000,000
Goku (everyone's ki) = 200,000,000,000
SSG Goku = 1,000,000,000,000 (initial) , 4,500,000,000,000 (FP)
Beerus (powered up) = 5,000,000,000,000
SS Goku = 4,400,000,000,000 (Drawing out SSG powers) , base = 20,000,000,000
Base goku (punching the ki ball) = 4,500,000,000,000

Freeza arc
Vegeta (goku's arrival) = 20,000,000,000

Piccolo (weights) = 700,000,000
Tagoma = 1,800,000,000
Ginyu = 2,000,000,000
SS Gotenks = 7,000,000,000
Gohan = 240,000,000 , SS Gohan = 6,000,000,000 , Ki decreased = 4,000,000,000
Freeza = 6,000,000,000 (Manageable for buu & Gohan or gotenks alone)
Final form freeza = 35,000,000,000 = Base goku / vegeta

Golden freeza = 8,000,000,000,000 , tired = 3,000,000,000,000
SSB = 7,000,000,000,000

Universe 6 tournament arc:

Piccolo = 3,000,000,000 , Makankosappo = 60,000,000,000
Base Goku = Vegeta = Cabba = 40,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Cabba = 1,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan vegeta = 2,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue = 8,000,000,000,000

Frost = 10,000,000,000 , Assault form = 36,000,000,000 , Final form = 70,000,000,000 , Tired = 45,000,000,000
(NOTE: Frost stated that he won't hold back against vegeta, which makes me believe he was holding back against piccolo)
Hit = 4,000,000,000,000 (Heavily suppressed)
Hit = 9,000,000,000,000 (initial, suppressed) , 18,000,000,000,000 (improved) , 23,000,000,000,000 (Improved again) , 28,000,000,000,000 (Fully improved)

SSB Goku Kaioken x10 = 80,000,000,000,000 (Initial) , 55,000,000,000,000 (After Kamehameha) , 40,000,000,000,000 (Tired against hit, just before give up)

Gods of destruction:
Beerus = 9,400,000,000,000 (regular power) , 200,000,000,000,000 (True power of god of destruction)
Champa = 8,000,000,000,000 (regular power) , 180,000,000,000,000 (True power of god of destruction)




Feedback will be appreciated, and dealt with appropriate responses.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Not really. The manga hasn't touched Goku absorbing the SSG power yet, and if we go by both movies & Super manga, the only way for consistency to exist is if there are 2 base forms.

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed it. There was only one opportunity to show it, if it isn't there it didn't happen. Even if the BoG arc in the manga was shortened, the absorption was a very important plot point. No way would Toyotarõ just skip over it.

In the manga the base Saiyans can be anywhere.

I'm aware. so far there is no indication that base/SS Goku & Vegeta have any of SSG power. But Toyotaro can still introduce it in the future, since it was never said they didn't absorb the power either.

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Not really. The manga hasn't touched Goku absorbing the SSG power yet, and if we go by both movies & Super manga, the only way for consistency to exist is if there are 2 base forms.

Goku fought Hit (a god tier fighter) in base without an aura in the manga too.

It's dead.

In the anime, since we haven't seen much in the manga yet but it seems it will go the same, Hit was suppressing his power in the beginning of his fights to the point that they couldn't tell how strong he really was, and base Goku landed hits by catching him by surprise. So, maybe Goku just didn't use his SSG powers.

[TheMikado]

Hi Guys, haven't really been in here in a while, just stopping in to see if we've made any progress with figuring out Super power levels.

Looks at past few pages.

Well I'm out, guess I'll check back in another month or so.

[Faisal Shourov]

Is Hit the second strongest character after Zeno? Since Hit is 60 where Whis and Vados are only 15 each. Hit might be strong enough to fight Zeno himself

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No way. Hit isn't a match for the Gods of Destruction.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Zeno
Whis/Vados
Beerus/Champa
Goku SSB KK x10
Goku & Vegeta SSB/Hit
Majin Buu
Goku, Vegeta & Kyabe SS
Maggeta
Frost Final Form
Piccolo
Goku, Vegeta & Kyabe base/Frost Second Form
Frost First Form
Botamo
Monaka

[Overlord78]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Some people will still try to argue for it. I personally thought that there were never two bases to begin with. Also base Goku's fight against Hit happened in the manga as well so some people can stop saying it was a Toei idea.

[Blackstripe]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Says who? I still subscribe to it. It makes way more sense than them always being in God state.

And he doesn't need an aura to be in God state. You can be in SSB without an aura...so that literally proves nothing.

[ZombieVito]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Says who? I still subscribe to it. It makes way more sense than them always being in God state.

And he doesn't need an aura to be in God state. You can be in SSB without an aura...so that literally proves nothing.

There needs to be a visual cue when they supposedly change base states, otherwise it's beyond stupid.

[Blackstripe]

Thank god the two base theory is finally dead.

Says who? I still subscribe to it. It makes way more sense than them always being in God state.

And he doesn't need an aura to be in God state. You can be in SSB without an aura...so that literally proves nothing.

There needs to be a visual cue when they supposedly change base states, otherwise it's beyond stupid.

Oh yes, out of everything else that has happened in Super, it is this that would just shatter everyone's suspension of disbelief and ruin the series.

You could infer which they're using by what they can do in both forms. Besides, with Beyond God as the only form it starts to become absurdly crowded. You can only squeeze so much in between Base Godku and Beerus, especially now that we have Kaioken to worry about. We don't need Super Saiyan in there too.

Also, you made a good pun and didn't even notice. In your honor, I'll call the non-God Ki base form, "Saiyan Beyond Stupid".