Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo is too low. Did you see the fight?

Also Freeza's power up to his true form was implied to be massive, I would lower his first form by a good margin.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo is too low. Did you see the fight?

Also Freeza's power up to his true form was implied to be massive, I would lower his first form by a good margin.

Yes. Piccolo got smacked around easily, not even managing to hurt Shisami once (unless you think pushing him back that one time hurt him), even though I assume Shisami is a terrible fighter, like Dodoria. He even did the "quickly dodge and appear behind you" thing. He also wasn't concerned with Gohan stepping in even though to him it would be clear that Gohan > Piccolo.

What makes you think the power-up was massive?

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo is too low. Did you see the fight?

Also Freeza's power up to his true form was implied to be massive, I would lower his first form by a good margin.

Yes. Piccolo got smacked around easily, not even managing to hurt Shisami once (unless you think pushing him back that one time hurt him), even though I assume Shisami is a terrible fighter, like Dodoria. He even did the "quickly dodge and appear behind you" thing. He also wasn't concerned with Gohan stepping in even though to him it would be clear that Gohan > Piccolo.

What makes you think the power-up was massive?

Piccolo already fought hundreds of soldiers before and Shisami was completely fresh though. He also was fighting somewhat evenly at the end. Hell he even questions Gohan when he steps in.

The complete shock Goku and Vegeta demonstrated? They couldn't believe how powerful he got.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo is too low. Did you see the fight?

Also Freeza's power up to his true form was implied to be massive, I would lower his first form by a good margin.

Yes. Piccolo got smacked around easily, not even managing to hurt Shisami once (unless you think pushing him back that one time hurt him), even though I assume Shisami is a terrible fighter, like Dodoria. He even did the "quickly dodge and appear behind you" thing. He also wasn't concerned with Gohan stepping in even though to him it would be clear that Gohan > Piccolo.

What makes you think the power-up was massive?

Piccolo already fought hundreds of soldiers before and Shisami was completely fresh though. He also was fighting somewhat evenly at the end. Hell he even questions Gohan when he steps in.

The complete shock Goku and Vegeta demonstrated? They couldn't believe how powerful he got.

Fighting the soldiers shouldn't have made him any weaker. These guys can be killed by random animals. I don't know where you get the idea that they were fighting evenly, Piccolo was getting completely overpowered and outsped at every turn. He can't really be close to Shisami's power unless he's just a garbage fighter.

Was that his true form specifically, or in general? In other words, was he actually exerting himself and giving them a good read on his power before he transformed?

[ZombieVito]

Fighting the soldiers shouldn't have made him any weaker. These guys can be killed by random animals. I don't know where you get the idea that they were fighting evenly, Piccolo was getting completely overpowered and outsped at every turn. He can't really be close to Shisami's power unless he's just a garbage fighter.

Was that his true form specifically, or in general? In other words, was he actually exerting himself and giving them a good read on his power before he transformed?

Everyone got tired, even Gohan. By how much is up to your interpretation but it's a fact they did get tired fighting the army.

When Goku arrives he tells Freeza he increased his power impressively but he also says he has gotten way more stronger, he says this in a very cocky way. Once Freeza transforms both Goku and Vegeta are in clear shock. Goku even asks what kind of training Freeza did in a very different attitude.

How can this power up be from a 6 to a 7?

I saw no indication of Freeza being suppressed in his first form at all.

[RandomGuy96]

Fighting the soldiers shouldn't have made him any weaker. These guys can be killed by random animals. I don't know where you get the idea that they were fighting evenly, Piccolo was getting completely overpowered and outsped at every turn. He can't really be close to Shisami's power unless he's just a garbage fighter.

Was that his true form specifically, or in general? In other words, was he actually exerting himself and giving them a good read on his power before he transformed?

Everyone got tired, even Gohan. By how much is up to your interpretation but it's a fact they did get tired fighting the army.

When Goku arrives he tells Freeza he increased his power impressively but he also says he has gotten way more stronger, he says this in a very cocky way. Once Freeza transforms both Goku and Vegeta are in clear shock. Goku even asks what kind of training Freeza did in a very different attitude.

How can this power up be from a 6 to a 7?

I saw no indication of Freeza being suppressed in his first form at all.

My interpretation is that they weren't really tired and were just being drama queens, lest we conclude that FNF Piccolo is weaker than Jaco, who wasn't shown as getting tired. Or weaker than Cymbal, who obviously is stronger than Giant Fish (who took out a dozen soldiers easily) since Daimao was surprised that something on Earth could kill him.

I wasn't talking about suppression. More like a Saiyan arc Nappa situation, where no one can tell how powerful a guy really is until they exert themselves. I'll widen the 1st form/true form gap though. He goes from 300 to 750.

[ZombieVito]

Just because there was no animal capable of defeating his sons when Damaio was alive doesn't mean there isn't one now. For all we know it could be a super fish with a BP ranging from 250 to 500 that was born a few years before the film.

It doesn't matter if they were drama queens. It makes no sense for them to eat the senzus if they didn't get tired. Why waste them? We also don't know if Jaco has unlimited stamina or simply just doesn't get tired that easily. You also have to consider he beat most of his opponents by smarts and not force. Jaco could also just refuse to eat one simply because he only eats Cheese and drinks Milk.

[RandomGuy96]

Just because there was no animal capable of defeating his sons when Damaio was alive doesn't mean there isn't one now. For all we know it could be a super fish with a BP ranging from 250 to 500 that was born a few years before the film.

...
Not sure if serious.

It doesn't matter if they were drama queens. It makes no sense for them to eat the senzus if they didn't get tired. Why waste them? We also don't know if Jaco has unlimited stamina or simply just doesn't get tired that easily. You also have to consider he beat most of his opponents by smarts and not force. Jaco could also just refuse to eat one simply because he only eats Cheese and drinks Milk.

Maybe they were just hungry. It's a terrible use of resources either way; none of them were shown being that tired, and something as useful as a senzu should be kept in reserve. It was just a plot convenience to eliminate the senzus. Not that this changes Piccolo's standing, mind. It looked like Shisami was toying with him anyway.

[ZombieVito]

I see nothing wrong with what I said about the fish.

It's starting to sound like excuses to be honest. They lost energy and took the senzus, it's that simple really.

P.S. How can Piccolo get hungry? xD

[Saiyan007]

The sensu beans were an obvious plot point if you see the fight of the z fighters fighting the army near the end before they ate the beans they didn't look tired at all especially gohan and Piccolo

No signs of being winded at all they just ate it for plot reasons not too mention jaco refused one does he have better stamina then everyone now

Also lol at that fish being that high of a power lvl

[RandomGuy96]

I see nothing wrong with what I said about the fish.

It's starting to sound like excuses to be honest. They lost energy and took the senzus, it's that simple really.

P.S. How can Piccolo get hungry? xD

The idea that a random fish born in the last few years off-screen can destroy the planet and curb-stomp the guy who conquered Earth twice is so illogical that I don't think I need to explain why. Especially since it just ate the soldiers. And the same soldiers were killed by rocks falling on them.

Nope. None of them were tired, as we clearly saw. Heck, Jaco explicitly states he isn't tired.

I wasn't 100% serious, but Piccolo is a living being who burns energy with physical activity. He can still get hungry. Even if his food is just water (and sunlight?). Again, Piccolo was pitiful to Shisami, so I don't see the problem with where I put him, even accounting for a small loss in power.

[ZombieVito]

If it really bothers you that much then the soldiers the fish ate were very weak, 50 BP weak. The fish has a BP of 60. Problem solved.

Plot device or not. The fact that they ate the senzu beans proves they lost energy. Just because they don't look tired doesn't mean they aren't. Just look at Golden Freeza, he looks fine for most of the fight.

At least in the Latin dub Jaco never said that in the film.

[RandomGuy96]

If it really bothers you that much then the soldiers the fish ate were very weak, 50 BP weak. The fish has a BP of 60. Problem solved.

Plot device or not. The fact that they ate the senzu beans proves they lost energy. Just because they don't look tired doesn't mean they aren't. Just look at Golden Freeza, he looks fine for most of the fight.

At least in the Latin dub Jaco never said that in the film.

Well, that's my point. The soldiers are obviously extremely weak given that they could get killed by a random fish or a big rock falling on them. In a series where city-busting has been the norm since the Daimao arc. Yet, these soldiers were still strong enough to give the humans some trouble (Krillin, the strongest Earthling, needed Gohan to bail him out of a situation where he was fighting a bunch of them). Hence why I have the humans at 23rd Budokai levels (I think even that may be too high... 22nd might be more appropriate), and why I think that they couldn't have actually tired out someone in Dodoria's tier (the series has shown time and time again that 100 ants vs one tank results in a loss for the ants at no cost to the tank). If Piccolo had experienced any drop in power, which I highly doubt since Jaco wasn't even tired, it was a tiny drop.

[ZombieVito]

We don't know if Jaco got tired or not. Him not taking the senzu can easily be explained because he only eats cheese.

Are you forgetting that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to fill up his army? They were the most likely ones to give Kuririn problems, especially since the script mentions them as troublesome.

[RandomGuy96]

We don't know if Jaco got tired or not. Him not taking the senzu can easily be explained because he only eats cheese.

Are you forgetting that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to fill up his army? They were the most likely ones to give Kuririn problems, especially since the script mentions them as troublesome.

Piccolo only drinks water, yet he still eats senzus all the time.

That's really, really reaching. Having a rock dropped on them or a fish eating them kills scores of soldiers just fine. As does getting hit by Roshi. No indication is given of those few following Krillin being above the rest by several orders of magnitude.

EDIT: Seriously, how many thugs did that big rock kill? A hundred? More?

[ZombieVito]

We don't know if Jaco got tired or not. Him not taking the senzu can easily be explained because he only eats cheese.

Are you forgetting that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to fill up his army? They were the most likely ones to give Kuririn problems, especially since the script mentions them as troublesome.

Piccolo only drinks water, yet he still eats senzus all the time.

That's really, really reaching. Having a rock dropped on them or a fish eating them kills scores of soldiers just fine. As does getting hit by Roshi. No indication is given of those few following Krillin being above the rest by several orders of magnitude.

EDIT: Seriously, how many thugs did that big rock kill? A hundred? More?

I just don't complicate myself and assign the weak soldiers to those instances. The powerful mercenaries are the ones that gave Kuririn trouble and the ones that actually hit Gohan. Saves me the headache.

Did the soldiers truly died by the rock? I guess I need to see the scene again but I don't remember seeing any soldiers get killed by rocks. I also don't have a problem with the fish, I just assume those soldiers had a BP of 100 and the fish a BP of 120-150. Problem solved.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

None of the soldiers died during the fighting. They were all killed by Freeza in the end.

As for Jaco getting not getting tired, it just means that he fought weaker enemies.

[h0kuten]

Jaco spent more time running away and hiding. Although I'd think he's probably a little stronger than Kurririn.

[dbzfan7]

So, I have decided to actually make a power level list for the newest movie. Everyone says it's a screwball mess of contradictory statements. But, really, it's actually internally consistent if you don't try to make stuff up and shove things where they don't belong. Observe:

Spoiler:

Beginning of faff
Freeza:
-1st form: 56,000
-true form: 140,000
-100% power: 210,000
Tagoma: 21,000
Sorbet: 50

(Tagoma is said to be comparable to Dodoria and Zarbon, so that's an easy one. Sorbet doesn't really do anything that would make one think he has a significant power- he was a bureaucrat. Freeza is where it gets fun. He explicitly states (after hearing that Goku and co have gotten way stronger and defeated Majin Buu) that 4 months of training will grant him a power level of 1.3 million, which he judges enough to get his revenge. Freeza's pre-training level is based on Krillin saying Goku can beat 1st form Freeza after he one-shots Recoome, and Freeza being surprised that anyone could be stronger than Captain Ginyu... even after Piccolo and Vegeta surpassed his first, second, and third forms)

Middle of faff

Freeza:
-1st form: 300,000
-true form: 750,000
-Golden form: 1,300,000

(It's never suggested at any point that his predictions were inaccurate. If anything, the opposite is implied; Goku states he raced to Earth the minute he thought he was strong enough, and didn't really go beyond that or try to boost his skills. As a result, he is at the level he said he'd be at. His first form can one-shot Gohan, his "base" is beyond everyone else but still a good bit below "base" Goku, and his Golden Form is above Goku, but not by so much that Goku can't simply outlast him. Easy peasy!)

Shisami: 30,000
Sorbet: 51
--+Green Lantern Ring: 1,000,000

(Again, Sorbet and the big guy are simple. Shisami is explicitly stated to be Zarbon or Dodoria level; I just made him transformed Zarbon level, because he's big. Sorbet again lacks any notable physical power (I assume he's trained since last time we saw him), but with his ring is able to critically wound Godku. Note that taking someone off guard alone isn't enough to injure them; you have to be close to their level to begin with. Yamcha vs Kami, Vegeta vs Freeza, and Trunks vs Buu all show this.)

Soldiers: 30-100

(The soldiers aren't all that tough. Definitely nowhere near the cream of the crop that Freeza took to Namek. They can get wasted by the likes of Roshi and Jaco. One of them gets killed by a random fish. Another dies when a cliff falls on him.)

Whis: 2,400,000
Beerus: 1,600,000
Goku: 960,000
--SSGSS: 1,200,000
Vegeta: 880,000
--SSGSS: 1,100,000
(These power levels are all extrapolated from Freeza's explicitly-stated level. Goku is weaker than Golden Freeza, but stronger than regular Freeza, and strong enough to actually beat Golden Freeza due to the latter's stamina issues. Vegeta is not far behind, but he's still behind, because he's Vegeta. Toriyama's 6/10/15 estimate easily fills in the powers for Beerus and Whis, though I also added some, errr, "gains" for Goku from Whis's trainint. Maybe Whis intentionally sabotaged Goku and Vegeta's training?.)

Gohan: 5,000
--Super Saiyan: 250,000
Piccolo: 23,000
Krillin: 250
Tenshinhan: 206
Roshi: 139
-Buff: 2,100
Jaco: 15

(Every member of the Jobber Squad can beat down the soldiers, including the guy who could only hope to fight the babies of Freeza's minions, but even Piccolo is outmatched against Shisami. Gohan takes him out in one hit, and implies he could take Freeza pre-training as well, but alas, Freeza has obtained a power level of 1.3 million by this point. None of them had a chance. On the bright side, Krillin remains the strongest Earthling, despite him and the others all dropping in power due to lack of training.)

Android 18: 18,000
Kitchen: 17,000
(As you can see, the mighty Android 18 would have been a help against the grunts, if not the Zarbon-level Shisami. However, Krillin had instead given her a more appropriate opponent...)

Yamcha: 70

(Tenshinahn deemed him too weak to come, while Jaco and Roshi actually bothered to show up. He's down to 22nd Budokai levels.)

End of faff

Mr. Buu: 26,000,000,000
(He never showed up in the movie, so I didn't change his power level from what it was last we saw him. Freeza's lucky that Buu, the voice of reason, decided to sleep through this crap.)

Kibitoshin: 5,125,000,000
Elder Kaioshin: 20,000,000
(Again; with nothing explicit to go on from them, I'm assuming their power levels haven't changed since Buu. They really were not interested in what was going on.)

I agree with this list when I remember they didn't give a fuck about consistency, and don't try to worm my ideals all over it just to pretend it is.

[h0kuten]

I just re-watched the entire fight again and I can conclusively say that:

a) Kuririn, Tienshinhan & Master Roshi were the only ones who were either, breathing heavily or had damage art on them.
b) Jaco didn't.
c) Jaco didn't choose to fight whom he wanted either. He was getting attacked from basically every side, so he didn't intentionally pick the weak ones to fight, that is just fan speculation to weaken him.
d) Piccolo was not worn out either. He was not breathing heavily and had no damage art on him.
e) Shishami probably trained alongside Frieza and increased his power level to the millions.
f) Gohan could not defeat Shisami in Base. This infers he increased himself from his original 'Zarbon' level, four months prior.
g) Jaco > Kuririn seems to be an irrefutable fact.
h) Those levels above seem off. Whiss explicitly states that an off-guard attack can hurt Goku and that he warned him about it in the beginning of FnF.