The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Well, aside from all that stuff I said above, Cooler in his true form says stuff like "Hmph, you do as well as I expected. Enough to have defeated my brother." after Goku fights evenly with him, indicating the Goku he fought is at least as strong as Frieza.

That Goku then gets at least twice as strong (kaio-ken x20) and Cooler still whoops him after transforming. Even if you don't assume that he's stronger than Frieza in that form, nothing contradicts the statement that Goku was.

[Fox666]

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[RandomGuy96]

Assuming that he defeated Freeza in a different way is pretty baseless.

Cooler's subordinates being that weak just can't work, given that Salza easily curbstomps Gohan who is at 200,000 and briefly fights evenly with Piccolo who is over a million. And Goku wasn't having trouble with him, he was completely making fools of them without trying and at one point KO'd their most powerful member with his battle aura alone (yet another reason I think he used kaio-ken x10 in that movie, as he wasn't doing such a thing earlier).

Wait, zenkais still existed by that point in the series? I thought after Goku beat Freeza everyone forgot about them and they were never mentioned again.

There's no evidence that Goku didn't go Super Saiyan on Namek, no reason to disregard canon events to make Cooler appear weaker. Why shouldn't I take what Cooler said seriously? It's a statement that is never contradicted, and it's said by Freeza's brother, who should know how powerful he is. And yes, we should assume he beat him at full power or at least near it because Piccolo, who was at this point probably stronger than even Frieza's third form, was complete trash to Cooler, while Frieza beyond his third form could freely shift his power and reach up to 84 million without going 100% full power. So if we're assuming that Goku using the kaio-ken x20 is minimum twice as strong as that, and Cooler could effortlessly hand 168 million Goku his ass...

Overall, just trying to say that Cooler assumed Freeza got killed in a really weak state seems really unfair. Uncontradicted statements are reliable for versus debates, and Cooler's statements are pretty clear: he asks Goku to show him his power. Goku obliges. After fighting a bit, Cooler concludes that Goku was strong enough to beat Freeza. I really don't see how it is reasonable to twist that from "you're stronger than my brother" to "my brother could hand you your ass without even using half of his power". Frieza in his final form can freely shift his power without transforming, so it's safe to assume that Cooler was at least assuming that the Goku he fought was stronger than 50-70% Freeza. Cooler then proves to be far stronger than that Goku multiplied by 2-20. But even then, it's really stretching it to assume that he assumed that Goku let Freeza transform three times but just drew the line at four (100% power up).

[Kaboom]

The official numbers for Coola's Armored Squad can work fine, since Gohan got sneak-attacked and outnumbered (and is, well, Gohan), and it's easy enough to assume Goku was going easy on them, as was Piccolo to a lesser degree. It's a teeny bit of a stretch, but not in "just can't work" territory by any means.

[RandomGuy96]

Still doesn't seem to work. Piccolo didn't insta-squash Salza with the first hit (Salza shrugged off a kick and deflected two generic ki blasts, one of which was enough to kill Doore who according to those numbers is somehow stronger than Salza...) and was actually forced to exert effort to survive when Salza pulled out that laser blade. I guess you can assume that he was toying with them, but that seems so un-Piccolo-like...

Plus their first reaction to finding Freeza's killer was "get him!", which to me indicates that Salza is at least stronger than Freeza's first form. Though that could just be me.

Anyway, at the end of the day, we still have Cooler being well over twice as strong as Frieza, given his utter mauling of kaio-ken x20 Goku, who's at least twice as strong as the guy who Cooler said was strong enough to beat Frieza. And the tanking feats he pulls off suggests that he's a lot more than 2 x Frieza, probably more than 4 x Frieza, so I don't see where Trunks has a chance here. Even if Cooler assumed Goku killed Freeza in his 50% form (why would he? Frieza can go to 70% in his final form without taking the time to bulk up, so if anything if he assumed Freeza didn't use 100% power he should've assumed he used that), that would still make Cooler over 240 million, meaning a battle between him and Trunks would only be slightly less pathetic than the one between him and kaio-ken x20 Goku.

[Saiga]

Cooler wins the first round with his final form, and Vegeta takes the second round. Even before his Majin power-up, I think he had surpassed the enraged SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, so someone around SS2 teen Gohan's level just won't cut it against him.

[RandomGuy96]

On Dabura: people were still talking about SS2 kid Gohan like he was the strongest being they had encountered at the time and Majin Vegeta, who was much stronger than normal Vegeta, was said to be around SS2 kid Gohan's level. If the former fought SPC I honestly think the Cell would win due to his about equal raw strength and his crazy powers, like instant transmission, the ability to spawn little monsters that near his strength, and of course regeneration.

Anyway again, what are people's arguments that Cooler is not stronger than Trunks? It just seems like every scenario leads to him being stronger than Trunks by a mile- and I factored in a lot of scenarios, even the ones that rely on a ton of assumptions to make Cooler as weak as possible. The only way you can possibly wank Trunks to be stronger is by taking statements by Cooler and assuming that they mean the complete opposite of what they were meant to mean, i.e. "I've witnessed your power first hand and see that you're stronger than Freeza" to "I've seen your power first hand and see that Freeza could've beat you without even using full power". Occam's Razor.

[Rocketman]

Occam's Razor does not apply here, because everything else is not equal.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The official numbers for Coola's Armored Squad can work fine, since Gohan got sneak-attacked and outnumbered (and is, well, Gohan), and it's easy enough to assume Goku was going easy on them, as was Piccolo to a lesser degree. It's a teeny bit of a stretch, but not in "just can't work" territory by any means.

I disagree. Salza lasted longer and put up a fight against Piccolo so he should be much stronger than Dore who is measured at 185,000 but he is about 170,000. Gohan also got quickly thrown to the side by Salza and Gohan's power level is 200,000 or greater. They simply don't work. I honestly just adjust to:
Neizu: 263,000
Dore: 285,000
Salza: 470,000

[Fox666]

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[TheMightyOzaru]

Neiz: 4,000,000
Sauzer: 210,000,000
Dore: 51,000,000
Piccolo: 230,000,000
Goku (base): 320,000,000
Goku (zenkai): 6,600,000,000
Goku (Kaio-ken x 10): 66,000,000,000
Coola (4th form): 690,000,000,000
Coola (5th form): 1,400,000,000,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan): 3,300,000,000,000,000,000
Metal Coola: 570,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

....

[RandomGuy96]

I've got Salza at beyond third form Freeza level because this is probably the Piccolo who was a good time into the training that let him godstomp Gero. At the very least he's on the level of Frieza's second form.

Anyway, I've yet to see any real argument for Trunks being stronger besides "well Cooler might've been stupid and that one statement actually means the opposite of what it was supposed to mean." I really don't see why we shouldn't use Occam's Razor here and I don't see how much more simple it could get: Cooler says he's much stronger than his brother. He tells Goku to fight him with the power he used to defeat his brother. After witnessing this power, he says that base/invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku is strong enough to defeat his brother. Then he demolishes a Goku that's 2-20 times as strong as that with no effort. Uncontradicted statements are reliable. Why shouldn't we assume that Cooler was talking about his brother's true power? Even being twice his brother's power (and he's obviously way more than that) would make him more than strong enough to beat Trunks. And for the third (fourth?) time: even if you do assume Goku was using an invisible kaio-ken x10 AND that Cooler for some reason thought that Freeza never went 100% against Goku, he should at the very least think that Freeza used 70% or 50% of his power, which given Cooler's feats against kaio-ken x20 Goku would still put him way out of Trunks' league.

[Angelus]

Buuhan VS Four SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Kid Gohan, SPC

Buuhan = Super Buu with Mystic/Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Base Goten, Base Trunks absorbed.

SSJ3 Gotenks is Post-ROSAT, of course. Four of them. But they're being serious and are not playing around.

Dead (with Halo) SSJ3 Goku that is being only as powerful as he was fighting Fat Buu. Only that level of power that he showed when he was fighting Fat Buu.

SSJ2 Kid Gohan during the Cell Games, enraged.

SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (but without his inflicted damage going to Buu's revival energy like the plot, of course)

and Super Perfect Cell at full power.

They all mob Buuhan/Gohan Buu.

No candy beam, absorptions, self-destructing, blowing up of planets, CIS, PIS, Psychological warfare.

Fight to the death. If it's still a stomp for Buuhan, make it five SSJ3 Gotenks instead of four. If it's overkill for Buuhan, then reduce it to three SSJ3 Gotenks.

[Rocketman]

It's Gohan-Buu whether there's four, five, or fifty Gotenks.

You can't mob somebody who can kill you instantly.

[Angelus]

What? SSJ3 Gotenks was only slightly weaker than Super Buu. A pretty close fight. It wasn't a stomp. Wouldn't two SSJ3 Gotenks be enough to beat Super Buu?

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

The movie already seems to ignore some points of the main storyline, and it doesn't seems that Goku defeated Freeza the way he did in the manga. And it couldn't be different, since the movie was released during the middle of their fight in the manga.

At the beggining of the movie Goku was having trouble fighting Coola subordinates with barely 200,000 of power, and Coola got close to killing Goku in an instant. It was only after Goku was healed that he had enough power to fight against Coola. So I don't think you should take whatever Coola said serious. Besides, should we assume that Coola meant that Goku defeated him at full power? Did Freeza actually used his full power, if Goku couldn't transform in Super Saiyan until the end of the movie?

I find that the power levels issued for the cooler movie are way off. First of all Piccolo was probably 2,000,000 here, and was dead even with Salza. Just multiply Cooler's armoured squad by x10 times and it will make sense.

[Rocketman]

What? SSJ3 Gotenks was only slightly weaker than Super Buu. A pretty close fight. It wasn't a stomp. Wouldn't two SSJ3 Gotenks be enough to beat Super Buu?

It's Super Buu with Gohan absorbed.

[RandomGuy96]

@Eternal: That's what I do, but Cooler's statement about base/invisible kai-ken x10 outclassing Freeza puts both Cooler and Goku easily over 300 million, which some people may consider too drastic of a power scaling. I think it works fine.

Also Salza has to be over Doore, that's just a given.

Anyway, fact of the matter is Future Trunks would get stomped by Cooler. Is anyone here still doubting that? If so, why?

@Buuhan: I just really don't see the team pulling off a win. They can barley hurt Buu (and he regenerates) while they're one-shot material to him.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Well also remember V-jump gave Cooler 470,000,000, which means Super saiyan Goku (who took a punch directly in the gut without flinching) is probably in the range of 600,000,000. So Kaioken x20 may have surpassed Frieza's power level here in this movie. These movies obviously take place in a parallel universe.

[RandomGuy96]

They don't necessarily have to, the only thing that keeps this one from fitting in is a minor case of plot induced stupidity, which is not at all rare in this series.

Super Saiyan Goku might be beyond that, since Cooler's punch didn't even budge him. Unless you, like me, assume that was a half-assed punch. Whether you think it was, and Cooler could have at least put up a better fight than Freeza did against Namek Goku (due to better stamina) had he gone all out against the Super Saiyan, or it wasn't, and Cooler couldn't hurt him period with normal punches and kicks, factors into how strong you believe Goku to be. Cooler's definitely far beyond Namek Goku, though.

And people are just really reluctant to actually use those numbers, even though I've posted why it can fit together nicely: assume this is near the end of android training or a parallel universe. Goku got strong enough that kaio-ken x10 (at least) = more than 120 million, as Cooler says that he's strong enough to beat Freeza just from seeing that power. This puts base Goku at 12-15 million. Cooler is far more than twice as strong as the guy who he said was powerful enough to defeat Freeza, but he's not five times as strong as him.

Base Goku = 12-15 million

Kaio-ken x10 Goku = 120-150 million

Cooler's true form = 100-140 million

Kaio-ken x20 Goku: 240-300 million

Cooler's final form = 470 million

Super Saiyan Goku = 600-750 million.

I suppose this is the last time I'll ask: does anyone have any reasons why Cooler wouldn't massacre Future Trunks, who is at most slightly stronger than Namek Goku? Because this always seemed like a clear-cut match-up to me, and I'd like to resolve it and move on to other versus debates.