The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Fox666]

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[TheMightyOzaru]

Well we can certainly confirm that the events of Freeza took place and it's pretty much established that Goku used SSJ to finish the job. This would mean Piccolo fused with Nail effectively putting him over a million.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, trying to say that everyone's weaker than on Namek when nothing proves it and just about everything goes against it is really dumb in my opinion. Not only do the official numbers contradict it, but Goku is clearly the one who defeated Freeza and he used the Super Saiyan transformation to do it. Piccolo just can't not be fused with Nail.

So is your only argument "well everyone can possibly be way weaker than they were on Namek"? Because that doesn't disprove what Cooler said, or the numbers said, or Goku said, or the events that happened in the movie. In fact that assumption has no evidence behind it at all.

[Kaboom]

There really is nothing in the movie that disallows or contradicts those official levels for the Armored Squad. Both Goku and Piccolo were taking on all 3 of them at once. Goku was likely being his typical merciful-to-henchmen self, but Piccolo brutally made them look like chumps, doing things like pretending to be hurt by their attacks before sending them right back at them. And Salza's extra minute or so of survival by being good at running away and chosen last by Piccolo (and ultimately saved by Coola) doesn't have to mean he's the strongest of the three by several folds or anything.

[RandomGuy96]

I think it would be really hard for Salza to own Gohan like he did if he was supposedly weaker. I'm not saying he couldn't win, but the effortlessness with which he took Gohan out makes me think he can't be that weak. Plus he's definitely stronger than Doore, as he deflects two generic blasts that Piccolo shoot while one was enough to take out Doore. Yet another way the numbers don't work.

Plus, on Salza vs Piccolo: Piccolo pretending to be hurt by Neiz's attack implies that he actually needed to do that- you know, take them out one at a time. He wouldn't do that if Salza and co couldn't even hurt him. And Doore survived a punch from him, Salza deflected two blasts, Neiz survived a kick, Salza trades blows evenly with him (landing a punch), shows no damage from a kick, and was by all means even with Piccolo, neither gaining an advantage over the other and Piccolo actually having to dodge Salza's laser blade thing rather than tank it.They couldn't have done this if they were that weak. Why would Piccolo toy with them when he was trying to protect Gohan and supposedly could've insta-squashed all of them with on effort?

Salza running away? He was attacking aggressively with blasts and a laser blade.

[Fox666]

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[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I find that the power levels issued for the cooler movie are way off. First of all Piccolo was probably 2,000,000 here, and was dead even with Salza. Just multiply Cooler's armoured squad by x10 times and it will make sense.

It's more likely that Piccolo was the one at 200,000. And there is nothing wrong with that, Goku battle power was 30,000 in the third movie, and that doesn't fit anywhere in the main story-line.

Goku's base was 3,000,000 when he faced Frieza. Lowering it down to 200,000 would make absolutely no sense.

[RandomGuy96]

That. Chronologically there's no way that can work because of the mere fact that Freeza is dead and Goku defeated him on Namek. By the time Goku even met Freeza, Piccolo was over a million.

There's nothing wrong with assuming that it takes place in an alternate timeline where that happened per se- it's your interpretation of the canonicity and setting of the movie- but for versus debates, yes, that's a huge deal. Your only defense for Trunks is that Goku might be weaker than he was on Namek. There is literally zero evidence for this besides one case of plot induced stupidity (Goku not turning SS immediately, like every other movie where someone tries to fight the villain in base). In fact everything implies that the events on Namek were completely unchanged, with Goku transforming into a Super Saiyan and creaming Frieza.

Once again, are there any arguments in favor of Trunks that have actual evidence behind them? Because in every reasonable scenario, Trunks doesn't seem to have a chance. Official numbers, uncontradicted statements, and the attitudes of the characters regarding their opponents (i.e. Goku's: "I can beat this Freeza-level guy in base/with kaio-ken x10" and Cooler's "After experiencing this guy's power first hand, he's definitely strong enough to beat Freeza") all point to Movie 5 Goku in base/kaio-ken x10 > Freeza.

[Kaboom]

I don't think there's going to be concrete proof for it one way or another. Others have already told what they believe and explained why, and that's pretty much the best it's going to get.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There really is nothing in the movie that disallows or contradicts those official levels for the Armored Squad. Both Goku and Piccolo were taking on all 3 of them at once. Goku was likely being his typical merciful-to-henchmen self, but Piccolo brutally made them look like chumps, doing things like pretending to be hurt by their attacks before sending them right back at them. And Salza's extra minute or so of survival by being good at running away and chosen last by Piccolo (and ultimately saved by Coola) doesn't have to mean he's the strongest of the three by several folds or anything.

You forget that Gohan's power level is over 200,000 and Salza's is 170,000 according to these "official" levels yet Salza disposes of Gohan with 1 kick. That's not accurate at all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just don't bother relying too much on battle powers. That's what the manga taught me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Just don't bother relying too much on battle powers. That's what the manga taught me.

They are usually right though. These ones just don't fit very well. Something tells me these are V-jump power levels.

[Kaboom]

You forget that Gohan's power level is over 200,000 and Salza's is 170,000 according to these official levels yet Salza disposes of Gohan with 1 kick. That's not accurate at all.

Oh no, I haven't forgotten.

The first time Gohan was up against the Armored Squad, he got ambushed and his tail was grabbed. The second time, he was ganged up on and was trying to protect the bag of senzu. The third time, he was still worn out and beaten up from the last time, having never taken a senzu himself. Also, he's Gohan.

Circumstances allow the numbers to work just fine.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think there's going to be concrete proof for it one way or another. Others have already told what they believe and explained why, and that's pretty much the best it's going to get.

It's just that... they didn't really give any reasons, whereas there's plenty of proof that Cooler would destroy Trunks with no effort. You believe in those magazine numbers for Cooler's henchman, so I presume you believe in the magazine number for him and know that this is true? Bah, may as well move on to other versus debates...

Here's three that have interested me that I rarely see:

Future Trunks vs. Mecha Frieza 100% and King Cold.

Frieza never got the chance to power up before Trunks sliced him half the minute he was distracted, but when he was on Namek he was pretty close to Goku, who was back then supposedly even with Trunks. Goku was only 25% stronger than him, and apparently his cybernetic upgrades a la Tao made him strong enough that he thought he might even be able to take Goku alone. But he did plan on ganging up on him if need be, which brings as to the next factor: King Cold. Frieza thought he'd be a big help against someone stronger than him and the guides officially say that Cold is only "somewhat inferior" to Frieza. If they both attacked Trunks at the same time, could he handle them both?

Roshi vs Tambourine

I'm not really sure how powerful Tambourine was supposed to be, so I'm wondering if Roshi could actually beat him. Roshi's only official power rating was 139. Think Tambourine's significantly higher than that?

Cyborg Tao vs Krillin at the start of Z

Officially, their power levels are near identical at 210 and 206 respectively. So whose skill, techniques, et cetera are good enough to take this?

[Kaboom]

It's just that... they didn't really give any reasons, whereas there's plenty of proof that Cooler would destroy Trunks with no effort. You believe in those magazine numbers for Cooler's henchman, so I presume you believe in the magazine number for him and know that this is true?

No, the numbers for the Armored Squad were given in a 1991 issue of Weekly Shonen Jump, way back when the movie was new. It listed Coola's power in his new transformation as "immeasurable." The number for Coola of 470 million was from an issue of V-Jump years later, and was part of an article of for Dragon Ball Z 3 / Budokai 3. This somewhat-less-than-relevant-to-the-movie-proper aspect of it, along with being largely incompatible with the other numbers for Broly and Gogeta along with it as well as with more recent revelations about power levels (Super Saiyan Goku in Movie 5 would be at least around 500 million to beat Coola's 470 million, then being 8 times stronger for Super Saiyan 3 would put him around 4 billion, way stronger than the 2.5 billion given for Super Gogeta, which obviously doesn't work at all), means those three Budokai 3 numbers are typically disregarded.

Future Trunks vs. Mecha Freeza 100% and King Cold.

Hmm... Might not be an easy fight, but I'd think he can pull it off.

Freeza never got the chance to power up before Trunks sliced him half the m

Roshi vs Tambourine

Hard to tell just how much Goku was inhibited so as to lose to Tambourine, but Muten Roshi could probably pull it off. Another listed number for Muten Roshi during the King Piccolo arc does put him right at 180 along with Goku and Ten from the 22nd WT, if that counts for anything.

Cyborg Tao vs Krillin at the start of Z

Going by those numbers, at this point, the win would probably go to Tao Pai Pai, I think. He's still got decades' worth of experience over Kuririn.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You forget that Gohan's power level is over 200,000 and Salza's is 170,000 according to these official levels yet Salza disposes of Gohan with 1 kick. That's not accurate at all.

Oh no, I haven't forgotten.

The first time Gohan was up against the Armored Squad, he got ambushed and his tail was grabbed. The second time, he was ganged up on and was trying to protect the bag of senzu. The third time, he was still worn out and beaten up from the last time, having never taken a senzu himself. Also, he's Gohan.

Circumstances allow the numbers to work just fine.

Hmm I suppose that is workable if you put it like that. However I still think Salza should be stronger than Dore.

[RandomGuy96]

Hmm... Might not be an easy fight, but I'd think he can pull it off.

I think Frieza and Cold would pull off a win. Mecha Frieza should be only slightly weaker than Trunks by this point, meaning Trunks can't simply dispatch him in one hit, and Cold would definitely tip the balance in Mecha Frieza's favor. As he is only "somewhat inferior" to Frieza, a single full power Death Beam from King Cold while Trunks is fighting Mecha Frieza should be a big problem... not to mention, a weaker fighter hitting a stronger fighter with their bare hands can still hurt the stronger fighter a lot of they're taken off-guard.

Going by those numbers, at this point, the win would probably go to Tao Pai Pai, I think. He's still got decades' worth of experience over Kuririn.

I suppose so.

Hard to tell just how much Goku was inhibited so as to lose to Tambourine, but Muten Roshi could probably pull it off. Another listed number for Muten Roshi during the King Piccolo arc does put him right at 180 along with Goku and Ten from the 22nd WT, if that counts for anything.

Should 180 be taken as his canon number, then I'm going with him too- I just can't see Tambourine exceeding 150 or so, as he gets too close to old King Piccolo's power.

[Saiga]

Roshi vs Tamborine - Eh, I don't think I buy the 180 battle power. Where's that from? Without taking it into consideration, I think Tamborine would win this.

Kuririn vs Tao - Tao isn't a whole lot stronger than him, so I'd definitely give this to Kuririn. He showed some serious skill when fighting Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

Roshi's power comes from this Weekly Jump scan: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... _chart.jpg

I can't say I agree with it. I just said that IF it were true, Roshi godstomps, as it puts him on the level of Goku when he killed Tambourine.

[Saiga]

Oops. I can't believe I forgot that one.

Well, yeah. Roshi wins.