Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Same with Vegeta, if he's struggling against Magetta then why would he have it turned off? Why wouldn't he just turn it on instead of turning Super Saiyan where he CO to ued to struggle?

It was explained that Vegeta was extremely tired/sweaty when Magetta was producing lots of heat and Vegeta couldn't output maximum power. Maybe Vegeta was unable to tap into his Blue form?

[Overlord78]

It makes zero sense for him to have God Ki switched on from the start when fighting against Frieza but then has it switched off the entire time throughout the Tournament even when fighting someone who beat the tar out of SSJB Vegeta.

Same with Vegeta, if he's struggling against Magetta then why would he have it turned off? Why wouldn't he just turn it on instead of turning Super Saiyan where he CO to ued to struggle?

Nah, it's made clear as day that there's a base power, a stronger Super Saiyan power and then a stronger Super Saiyan Blue power and that's it.

I'm fine with that as long we acknowledge there is both a God Tier Piccolo and a God Tier Rageta and that SSG really can't be all that powerful. Maybe Beerus just ended up doing a pressure point on SSJ3 Goku and that universe busting wave punches weren't actually endangering the universe just the immediate solar system. Probably just Earth and the moon.

The problem here though is that those shockwaves were reaching the Kaioshin realm so it wasn't just affecting the solar system, also we had 3 statements from Whis, Elder Kai and the narrator all stating that the universe was about to be destroyed. Maybe not by the shockwaves but most definitely during that energy clash between Goku and Beerus where he nullified the explosion. Honestly I think we just need to accept that Rageta got a ridiculous boost and that characters like Piccolo are as strong as the plot needs them to be.

[Bullza]

Why does there need to be a God tier Piccolo and SSJ2 Vegeta?

SSJ Goku and Vegeta would be equal to SSJG and Frost was much weaker than SSJ Goku and then Piccolo said he stood no chance against a more tired Frost. He isn't anyway near God tier.

It could be that implied Base Vegeta after training with Whis is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta so he wouldn't be God tier either.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I honestly don't understand the suggestion that Rage Vegeta NEEDS to be god tier? All that was mentioned was that he surpassed SSJ3 Goku. For all we know he could only be 10-20% higher than SSJ3 Goku level.

And WHY is there is a sudden consensus here that Beerus didn't use any more than 10% while fighting Goku, when it was implied a few times that Beerus powered up when Goku was SSJ God?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You mean against Frost? What does this have to do with anything, SS Goku was much stronger than Frost, yet he somehow lost all of a sudden, which is why he was surprised.

My point was he thought Super Saiyan would've been enough and Beers called him an idiot for not using his full-power. Beers saw most of the their training with Whis, so he'd be able to differentiate a Saiyan Beyond God type of transformation from Super Saiyan Blue, but he never comments on it whatsoever.

We're never given any reason to believe there's some hidden Base form transformation he just decided to not use for the hell of it. Goku used everything except Super Saiyan Blue against Frost. That's all there is to it. Frost's Assault Form was strong enough to overpower Saiyan Beyond God Goku. In other words, there's no two Bases.

[LightBing]

Manga Tiers (Chapter 12):
Notes:
- I have Goku and Vegeta as equals.
- This is based of relative power, while I have Magetta below some characters he would likely win due to his special abilities.
- When translations for the last chapter emerge this might change.

Spoiler:

Tier 0
Vados
Whis

Tier 0.5
Beerus
Champa

Tier 1
SSJB Vegeta
SSJB Goku
Hit

Tier 2
SSJ Goku
SSJ Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
True Form Frost

Tier 3
Tired Frost
Base Goku
Base Vegeta

Tier 4
Second Form Frost
Base Cabba
Piccolo
Magetta

Tier 5
First Form Frost
Botamo

Tier 6
Base Goku with full stomach

[Lord Beerus]

Manga Tiers (Chapter 12):
Notes:
- I have Goku and Vegeta as equals.
- This is based of relative power, while I have Magetta below some characters he would likely win due to his special abilities.
- When translations for the last chapter emerge this might change.

Spoiler:

Tier 0
Vados
Whis

Tier 0.5
Beerus
Champa

Tier 1
SSJB Vegeta
SSJB Goku
Hit

Tier 2
SSJ Goku
SSJ Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
True Form Frost

Tier 3
Tired Frost
Base Goku
Base Vegeta

Tier 4
Second Form Frost
Base Cabba
Piccolo
Magetta

Tier 5
First Form Frost
Botamo

Tier 6
Base Goku with full stomach

I'd honestly put Magetta in Tier 2. I mean, SSJ Vegeta couldn't move him an inch, and it wasn't for Magetta getting insulted by him, I think Magetta would have won in the end. SSJ Vegeta was really struggling against him.

[LightBing]

I'd honestly put Magetta in Tier 2. I mean, SSJ Vegeta couldn't move him an inch, and it wasn't for Magetta getting insulted by him, I think Magetta would have won in the end. SSJ Vegeta was really struggling against him.

That's all due to his durability and weight. He only got a punch into Vegeta, which was when the later was trying to elevate him. It did hurt him, more due to his weight than actual power.

This fight is very much like the Botamo fight. In both cases we see the fighters trying to handle the special abilities, instead of going straight up and having a bout.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So let me get this straight.

Goku attacked Hit, an opponent that completely wrecked SSB Vegeta with a base power in the millions instead of using a supposedly god state that would give him a power easily in the dozen/hundred billions?

No, sorry.

It was stated that Hit was suppressing his power to the point they couldn't tell how strong he was, and he defeated him because of the speed he had thanks to Tokitobashi & almost all of his hits were weak ones that did damage because he was hitting him at his pressure points. Hit hadn't displayed god-level power yet, he did that when he was unable to use Tokitobashi against SSB Goku. Against Vegeta, it was literally pure skill, it had absolutely nothing to do with battle powers, and Goku fought in base because he was aware that Hit was only using his abilities in his fights, so he tried to counter his abilities. He could at least use regular Super Saiyan, which doesn't drain any energy, yet he didn't.

Besides, if you go only by the manga, it isn't stated anywhere that base/SS Goku absorbed any of the SSG power, so either there are 2 base forms, base & SbG, or there is only the regular base form without any SSG power.

My point was he thought Super Saiyan would've been enough and Beers called him an idiot for not using his full-power. Beers saw most of the their training with Whis, so he'd be able to differentiate a Saiyan Beyond God type of transformation from Super Saiyan Blue, but he never comments on it whatsoever.

I still don't see how this has anything to do with SbG. Goku chose to hold back SbG & SSB because he thought SS was enough & he lost... that's it.

We're never given any reason to believe there's some hidden Base form transformation he just decided to not use for the hell of it. Goku used everything except Super Saiyan Blue against Frost. That's all there is to it. Frost's Assault Form was strong enough to overpower Saiyan Beyond God Goku. In other words, there's no two Bases.

We are also given no reason to believe that there is SbG in the manga at all. There is no mention that Goku & Vegeta have any SSG power during the whole manga, and Piccolo is portrayed as a fighter weaker than Majin Boo, with no reason to assume that he got any stronger than he was before. There is also no comment of the U6 fighters (minus Hit) that places them in the level of gods, and they are portrayed as either lazy fighters (Botamo, Frost), fighters with great potential (Frost, Cabba), or fighters with special abilities (Botamo, Magetta). The only reason that we are given for Piccolo & the U6 fighters (minus Hit) to be on the level of gods is how they compare to base/SS Goku & Vegeta, but if you take bring them down to their regular levels, Piccolo & the U6 fighters (minus Hit) go down with them. And the manga already eliminated the SbG state.

It appears to me that after they decided to move on into a new series after the movies, Toriyama decided to abandon the Saiyan beyond God concept in order to not overpower Goku & Vegeta, so instead of making 2 different base forms and having Goku & Vegeta abandon it and explain all that mess, he simply retconned it with the BoG arc retelling of the manga by not mentioning it at all. After all, the only reason that SbG was created was as a plot-device to have SS Goku vs Beerus, since he said in an interview that one of the things he wanted to do in the BoG was to have regular Super Saiyan Goku in the final fight, from what I recall (the other thing he wanted to do was reunite the whole gang). But by making base Goku as strong as SSG, it cause problems in FnF, since there wasn't a tremendous increase between base & SSB, the new form. So he threw the whole concept out of the window, and in-universe, Goku & Vegeta probably abandoned it because there isn't a monstrous difference between SbG & SSB, so they just use SSB now. On the other hand, Toei decided to just make base Goku & Vegeta weaker than SSG, but still stronger than SS3, and keep SS as strong as SSG.

So, the transformations have been like this:

Spoiler:

Base → SS → SS2 → SS3

Spoiler:

Base with SSG power → SS or SSG

Spoiler:

Base with SSG power → SSB

Spoiler:

Base → SS → SSB → ???

Spoiler:

..............Oozaru.......Super Saiyan Grade 2 → Super Saiyan Grade 3
..................↑..................↑
...............Saiyan → Super Saiyan [Full Power] → Super Saiyan 2 → Super Saiyan 3
..................↓....................↑............↓
Saiyan with Super Saiyan God power →Super Saiyan Blue → ???
..................↓
.........Super Saiyan God

[dbgtFO]

I agree with everything you wrote DBZGTKOSDH.
Good to see someone on completely the same page as me.
If only Toriyama's script and thoughts on all these subjects were made public.

[TheMikado]

^ Agreed, excellent post. And everyone's interpretation of power levels will be different depending on which version of which arc they watched... yikes.

[Faisal Shourov]

Why do people believe Whis can beat Hit? Did people forget what Whis did to Beerus in battle of Gods with a power difference of 5? Yes, just 5. Whis a 15 KO Beerus who's 10

Hit who's greater than 60 would annihilate Whis with a poke. 60 >>>>>>>>>> 15.

[Noah]

Why do people believe Whis can beat Hit? Did people forget what Whis did to Beerus in battle of Gods with a power difference of 5? Yes, just 5. Whis a 15 KO Beerus who's 10

Hit who's greater than 60 would annihilate Whis with a poke. 60 >>>>>>>>>> 15.

Er... Dude, are you for real? That 6-10-15 is outdated nowadays, I don't think Toriyama follows this logic actually, he was just throwing random numbers to express his thoughts in a interview, and yet people have followed this like something in a bible or something, geez.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Hit who's greater than 60 would annihilate Whis with a poke. 60 >>>>>>>>>> 15.

[Lord Beerus]

Why do people believe Whis can beat Hit? Did people forget what Whis did to Beerus in battle of Gods with a power difference of 5? Yes, just 5. Whis a 15 KO Beerus who's 10

Hit who's greater than 60 would annihilate Whis with a poke. 60 >>>>>>>>>> 15.

Stop. Using. The. 6-10-15 Scale.

I've said this before, and I'l say it again, it was an off the cuff remark made by Toriyama to give a basic premise of the gap in strength between SSJ God Goku, Beerus and Whis in one instance. And that instance was in Battle Of Gods. I'm absolutely certain that Toriyama put no forethought into that comment because I'm sure he had no idea that Resurrection F and Dragon Ball Super were going to happen. I mean, Dragon Ball Super in particularly is its own beast of a product, with it retelling the events of Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F, so at this stage, it can make up its own rules.

[Bullza]

Well the 6/10/15 comment did match what was said in the movie about Beerus using 70% so I don't think it was something he probably just thought up on the spot but it is outdated.

I'd say that probably didn't apply for the Resurrection F movie. It definitely doesn't seem to apply for Super, it's impossible for it to be.

[LightBing]

To change the subject since this thread has become a scratched record.

How about the end of the cycle! It has been three arcs and Goku is still weaker than Beerus. It's a record! Usually by the next arc Goku has dwarfed the previous villain.
What about the fact that the new reference of power SSJG, is very much relevant. Only two non-God characters have reached it. Three if you count Vegeta.

This is very healthy for the series. Finally the insane power creep has stopped.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The 6-10-15 scale still works, even in the Super anime.

Goku's Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue is an incomplete technique according to Goku, and it became obvious from his fight with Hit. Without his Tokitobashi, Hit was a little weaker than SSB Goku. While the Kaio-ken literally multiplied SSB Goku's battle power from x2 to x10, his body didn't become x2-10 stronger, since Hit managed to take multiple hits from Goku, while just Kaio-ken x2 should have been enough to easily take out Hit. It was stated that Hit improved more & more through the fight, but it was also specifically stated that it wasn't his battle power that was increasing, it was his Tokitobashi. If Hit was able to take KKx10 SSB Goku's hits, who was weaker than regular SSB Goku, Beerus & Whis shouldn't have much trouble.

So, even if Goku's power appears to be greater than Beerus' & Whis' (which would make sense, since Beerus panicked after seeing KKx2 SSB Goku, even though he naturally didn't admit it), he can't fully utilize it yet.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The fact that Goku still regards Monaka as the strongest should denote that he's still inferior to Beers. If he surpassed Beers, even if it was temporary, it would've been noted.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The fact that Goku still regards Monaka as the strongest should denote that he's still inferior to Beers. If he surpassed Beers, even if it was temporary, it would've been noted.

We know he didn't. KKx10 SSB Goku & Hit are still considered pawns of Beerus & Champa, and Goku acknowledges it.