Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[VegetaSSJBlue]

There is no way Base (God) Goku/Vegeta are above SSJ3 Gotenks! This is insane! They cannot be that powerful! Not even Base GT Goku was in that peak of power! I can buy them being above a Super Saiyan 3, but not a Fused SSJ3 for god's sake.

Base Goku: Namek SS Goku
Base God Goku: BoG SSG Goku

[pacz360]

There is no way Base (God) Goku/Vegeta are above SSJ3 Gotenks! This is insane! They cannot be that powerful! Not even Base GT Goku was in that peak of power! I can buy them being above a Super Saiyan 3, but not a Fused SSJ3 for god's sake.

In the manga it may be a subject of a high spirited debate but in the anime continuity SSJ3 Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks. See SSJ3 Goku vs Buutenks (Super Buu+SSJ3 Gotenks), the statement that kid Buu is the strongest of all the forms of Buu and that in DBS ep.2 Goku was considered by Vegeta to be the strongest Saiyan (hence above Mystic Gohan who is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks).

Goku was getting his ass kicked by buutenks in the anime also I wouldn't be sure with vegeta statement considering he's his rival doesn't consider gohan nor gotenks.

[pacz360]

There is no way Base (God) Goku/Vegeta are above SSJ3 Gotenks! This is insane! They cannot be that powerful! Not even Base GT Goku was in that peak of power! I can buy them being above a Super Saiyan 3, but not a Fused SSJ3 for god's sake.

Seriously this db duck sakes gt goku in his base was ssj gt gohan who kept training during the time and ssj goten gt goku was stronger than kid buu in his base form I don't see how goku in his base god form being gotenks is insane considering he has feats of being superior to him.

[Speedster]

There is no way Base (God) Goku/Vegeta are above SSJ3 Gotenks! This is insane! They cannot be that powerful! Not even Base GT Goku was in that peak of power! I can buy them being above a Super Saiyan 3, but not a Fused SSJ3 for god's sake.

In the manga it may be a subject of a high spirited debate but in the anime continuity SSJ3 Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks. See SSJ3 Goku vs Buutenks (Super Buu+SSJ3 Gotenks), the statement that kid Buu is the strongest of all the forms of Buu and that in DBS ep.2 Goku was considered by Vegeta to be the strongest Saiyan (hence above Mystic Gohan who is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks).

Goku was getting his ass kicked by buutenks in the anime also I wouldn't be sure with vegeta statement considering he's his rival doesn't consider gohan nor gotenks.

The point was that against Buutenks, SSJ3 Goku arguably did better than Mystic Gohan (or at the very least equally). And we know that Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks. So

Base Super Buu=0.75
SSJ3 Gotenks=0.75
Mystic Gohan=1
SSJ3 Goku(Vs Buttenks)=1
Buutenks=Base Super Buu+SSJ3 Gotenks=0.75+0.75=1.5

Even if you really want to lowball SSJ3 Goku given what we have seen in the anime where will you put him? Even if you put him at 0.75 that would put him on par with SSJ3 Gotenks. Even if you want to put him below Gotenks that would be at 0.6 or somewhere in that ballpark. So not a big difference. And even if you go by the logic “SSJ1 Gotenks (post RoSaT) is at least half as strong as SSJ3 Goku thus 4x stronger as SSJ3” as it is often debated by the faith militants of the manga+guidebooks school it still is not that much of a difference anyway.

Certainly the anime never followed the fan-made logic that base Gotenks (post RoSaT)>=Fat Buu because of Piccolo’s reaction and that therefore SSJ3 Gotenks is at least 200x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. That is DEFINITELY out of the window when it comes to the anime continuity.

Besides in Super, in RoF, SSJ Gotenks didn't even beat Tagoma. Yeah it was a gag scene but given the kids were previously impressed by Tagoma's ki and given that Tagoma<SSJ Gohan<First Form Freeza<<<Final Form<base Vegeta we have evidence to believe that in Super, base Vegeta(FnF)>>SSJ1 Gotenks.

[Pannaliciour]

Edit this reaction

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The point was that against Buutenks, SSJ3 Goku arguably did better than Mystic Gohan (or at the very least equally). And we know that Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks. So

Base Super Buu=0.75
SSJ3 Gotenks=0.75
Mystic Gohan=1
SSJ3 Goku(Vs Buttenks)=1
Buutenks=Base Super Buu+SSJ3 Gotenks=0.75+0.75=1.5

Even if you really want to lowball SSJ3 Goku given what we have seen in the anime where will you put him? Even if you put him at 0.75 that would put him on par with SSJ3 Gotenks. Even if you want to put him below Gotenks that would be at 0.6 or somewhere in that ballpark. So not a big difference. And even if you go by the logic “SSJ1 Gotenks (post RoSaT) is at least half as strong as SSJ3 Goku thus 4x stronger as SSJ3” as it is often debated by the faith militants of the manga+guidebooks school it still is not that much of a difference anyway.

Certainly the anime never followed the fan-made logic that base Gotenks (post RoSaT)>=Fat Buu because of Piccolo’s reaction and that therefore SSJ3 Gotenks is at least 200x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. That is DEFINITELY out of the window when it comes to the anime continuity.

Besides in Super, in RoF, SSJ Gotenks didn't even beat Tagoma. Yeah it was a gag scene but given the kids were previously impressed by Tagoma's ki and given that Tagoma<SSJ Gohan<First Form Freeza<<<Final Form<base Vegeta we have evidence to believe that in Super, base Vegeta(FnF)>>SSJ1 Gotenks.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku would have to be a lot higher than that in the anime. He's strong enough to fight with an Ultimate Gohan clone as a Super Saiyan. According to Goku, that clone also has the same power as the original Gohan. It's so dumb....

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, the anime doesn't follow Gotenks and Gohan being stronger than Goku in Boo's Arc. So, if this version of Gotenks is capable of dealing with a copy of Base Vegeta, the former SS3 Goku would most likely pull something even better.

[RandomGuy96]

The point was that against Buutenks, SSJ3 Goku arguably did better than Mystic Gohan (or at the very least equally). And we know that Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks. So

Base Super Buu=0.75
SSJ3 Gotenks=0.75
Mystic Gohan=1
SSJ3 Goku(Vs Buttenks)=1
Buutenks=Base Super Buu+SSJ3 Gotenks=0.75+0.75=1.5

I think you've got things backwards. Gohan could actually trade blows with Buu on even ground for a while, and make him bleed. Goku couldn't even deal the slightest bit of harm to an off guard Buu with dozens of attacks. Heck, a single surprise blow from a half-dead Gohan had more of an effect on Buu than a few dozen ki attacks from SS3 Goku. All that fight really tells us is:

Buutenks > Gohan > Gohan (beaten up) > SS3 Goku

And Gohan's power was probably really reduced at that point. Buu beat him into unconsciousness moments before and he was just getting back up after a couple minutes of being knocked out. I don't think he'd be much stronger than a full-strength SS3 Gotenks there, if he was stronger at all.

Even if you really want to lowball SSJ3 Goku given what we have seen in the anime where will you put him? Even if you put him at 0.75 that would put him on par with SSJ3 Gotenks.

SS3 Goku still said he'd have no chance against a Gotenks-tier opponent, like, three times. And he was defeated by someone who had trouble with SS2 Vegeta (unlike the manga, Vegeta actually put up a decent fight against Buu in the anime).

The only real grounds you have for claiming Goku > Gotenks is going with the two statements in the anime that Pure Buu is the strongest Buu. And even if we ignore literally all of his feats (e.g. why did he have trouble with someone that Buutenks considered a joke, why did the fat Buu put up a good fight against him for like 20 minutes, why did SS2 Vegeta put up a decent fight, why was Gohan's genki + 6 billion Earthlings' genki + a token few others still enough to totally wipe him out, why were SS2 + SS2 Goku a decent challenge to Pure Buu individually yet totally helpless against Buuhan even before he did two or three big power-ups, etc.) and assume that this is true and overrides other statements, it still wouldn't matter for Goku, who wasn't able to even mildly annoy a supposedly weaker Buu. It'd just mean Pure Buu held back against him.

Even if you want to put him below Gotenks that would be at 0.6 or somewhere in that ballpark. So not a big difference.

Anime Goku still said he wouldn't have a chance against Super Buu. It's a pretty big difference. I do agree that the gap between them in the anime is much smaller than what it's implied to be in the manga, though. Also, the anime (assuming the JSAT special is canon) still has stuff like base Gotenks toying with a foe that Goku needs to go SS to beat. So, at least, Gotenks > Goku in the same form.

Besides in Super, in RoF, SSJ Gotenks didn't even beat Tagoma. Yeah it was a gag scene but given the kids were previously impressed by Tagoma's ki and given that Tagoma<SSJ Gohan<First Form Freeza<<<Final Form<base Vegeta we have evidence to believe that in Super, base Vegeta(FnF)>>SSJ1 Gotenks.

Hopefully the next episode will give us a more solid base for where things stand in the Super continuity.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku put up a better fight against Kid Boo than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

[SansrivaaL]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku put up a better fight against Kid Boo than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

That was an anime filler tho, if I remember correctly Goku went straight to SSJ3 in the manga.

[Pannaliciour]

Remember what Vegeta said about those punches of kid buu: Have Goku be tanking these kind of punches? And Vegeta tanked fat Buu punches before. Kid Buu>> Fat Buu. And Goku could destroy both of thr Buu versions.

[dbgtFO]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku put up a better fight against Kid Boo than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

That was an anime filler tho, if I remember correctly Goku went straight to SSJ3 in the manga.

Well yeah, their discussion is about Buu Arc's anime filler afterall.
Also that was a typical anime filler moment, Vegeta on the sidelines raving about SS2 Goku's power, when earlier in the arc he had power equal to that!
It would seem the anime writers just took the concept of "Saiyans get stronger with every fight" to its logical conclusion and had SS2 Goku(vs. Kid Buu) far stronger than SS2 Goku(vs Vegeta). Vegeta didn't improve, as he was dead without a body.

[RandomGuy96]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku put up a better fight against Kid Boo than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Buu was explicitly not going 100% there. Compare this fight to his battle against a character with an identical power (Vegeta).

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Pretty sure Kid Boo wasn't going 100% against Vegeta, either. He Chi-blasted him right in the face and Vegeta still got up.

Unlike the manga, Vegeta took more hits, but that's about it. I liked the part where Vegeta got back up and transformed, though.

[RandomGuy96]

Pretty sure Kid Boo wasn't going 100% against Vegeta, either. He Chi-blasted him right in the face and Vegeta still got up.
Unlike the manga, Vegeta took more hits, but that's about it. I liked the part where Vegeta got back up and transformed, though.

Actually, unlike in the manga, he actually does get some good punches in that clearly stun and hurt Buu; also unlike the manga, him blowing off Buu's legs is treated as something he actually did with his own power (it hurts Buu and then makes him mad) rather than something that only happened because Buu was off-guard and essentially allowed it to happen (in the manga he's slightly surprised, then smiles; at no point is he in pain or angry). And we can tell he wasn't holding back as pretty much an absolute fact, since he looks in pain and even a bit intimidated at times in the fight, and unlike in the earlier example never shows himself to be capable of more. If he had later powered up and swatted SS2 Vegeta like a bug, that'd be one thing, but that didn't happen, so there's no real grounds for claiming he's not going full force there.

It seemed pretty clear that the intent of changing scenes like Buu's legs getting blown off and adding scenes like Pure Buu being surprised and intimidated that Vegeta is still fighting was to show that Vegeta isn't a total weakling despite Buu and Goku being a good bit stronger than him.

[Bullza]

How does Mastered Super Saiyan work as a multiplier?

If Super Saiyan is supposed to be 50x and then Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyan are more powerful and then Mastered Super Saiyan is more powerful (as powerful?) than Ultra Super Saiyan then surely it can't still be 50x base.

I ask because Vegeta and Cabba were equal in base but as Super Saiyans Vegeta seemed to have a huge advantage which is likely due to him having mastered that form.

[LightBing]

How does Mastered Super Saiyan work as a multiplier?

If Super Saiyan is supposed to be 50x and then Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyan are more powerful and then Mastered Super Saiyan is more powerful (as powerful?) than Ultra Super Saiyan then surely it can't still be 50x base.

I ask because Vegeta and Cabba were equal in base but as Super Saiyans Vegeta seemed to have a huge advantage which is likely due to him having mastered that form.

I'm trying to figure this out. The best theory I came up is that mastery is an addition not a multiplier.

How it would look in numbers:

Goku - 1
SSJ - 50
SSJ Mastered - 50 + ?

The ? is dependent on how much the user actually developed the form. This would help make sense on why Goku and Vegeta abandoned SSJ2 and SSJ3, this way SSJ actually surpasses those forms in power and not only in efficient.

[Bullza]

Changing topics but I've been thinking and I don't think the Resurrection F movie and the Universe Six anime saga are so out of sync with each other as most people think. In fact I'd say they go hand in hand.

Think about it now. Toriyama wrote the Battle of Gods movie then the Resurrection F movie and then he wrote the plot outline for the Universe Six saga. Obviously he'd have wrote that as a continuation of the movie he only just wrote.

We don't know exactly what's in this plot outline but going by the anime and manga the Vegeta vs Cabba fight plays out the same. They're equal in base, Vegeta turns Super Saiyan and beats the tar out of him. That had to be in the plot outline, so as far as Toriyama is concerned turning Super Saiyan makes them a lot stronger.

Surely he'd have had the same thought in mind when writing the Resurrection F movie too. Plus Toriyama did say in June 2014

"Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength"

So even after Battle of Gods and him absorbing the God form and what not we're pretty much being told that the normal state and Super Saiyan are on different levels of power. There's his normal state and then his Super Saiyan state, there's no indication that they are equal or anything.

There's nothing specifically in the Resurrection F movie that contradicts anything from the Universe Six Saga power level wise. Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo in the movie aswell as in the saga.

So in the Resurrection F movie it should still go

Super Saiyan Blue > Super Saiyan > Base

Just the same as in the Universe Six saga. I think Base Goku is just as strong in the movie as in the saga, no different.

[supercat]

I'm not sure why anyone thought Goku having two base forms was even a logical theory to begin with. Piccolo's massive power boost, and universe 6 being ridden with a roster of fighters who tower over Buu are concepts that may be difficult to accept for some of you, but we're talking about a show that has a track record of introducing unexplainably strong characters; most of whom made their debuts by immediately outshining previously established benchmarks.

Two mechanically enhanced teenagers utterly humiliating legendary warriors who effortlessly destroyed a universally renowned and feared tyrant is enough indication to me that sporadic power increases with little to no logic behind them or the sudden introduction of absurdly powerful characters are both things that fall within the boundaries of normal occurrences.

Base Goku (universe 6 arc) is likely the same exact Base Goku who tangled with Beerus and Final Form Frieza; meaning Frost is likely wielding some unspecified level of SSJ Vegetto-busting strength, with Piccolo presumably a few notches below said caliber.

In my opinion, nothing really contradicts the following:

SSJ Goku = SSG Goku > Final Form Frost > Tired Final Form Frost > / = Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > / = Base Goku > Final Form Frieza > SSJ Vegetto > Buu (all forms)

[Kaboom]

I feel like referring to the theory as "two base forms" is kind of misleading and implies something complicated, as if Goku has some new transformation that's still his base form but stronger. It's not nearly so tricky. The idea is really just that Goku can choose to boost whatever form he's using with his god-ki. He would need Super Saiyan to channel all of it (which gets him SSGSS), but he can use it in his base form too.

It explains why Goku and Vegeta's regular SS forms are still used and distinct from SSGSS, it prevents other random folks who don't use god-ki (Piccolo, Frost, Magetta, Cabbe, etc) from unnecessarily being up in the godly power tiers, it explains how there's a big difference between Goku's "base" and SSGSS strengths despite him still not being close to Beerus even in the latter form (disregarding Super and its sloppy inconsistency on that front), and on and on. It's an easy idea that fills in a lot of holes.