Non-thread-worthy discussions

[JulieYBM]

The most important thing is spirit energy, which should obviously be tied to a character arc. Character searches for a truth and a resolution, struggles against another character's resolution, then overcomes their own internal issues, thus being able to overcome the external issue.

It's a pretty basic structure that keeps each storg interesting and meaningful. Of course, this being Toriyama, whether he felt like actively writing meaning or not was a crapshoot.

[super michael]

Power scale is how we can tell who is stronger between two character, however they gain their power is important. If a character makes huge gains from things like training in a regular gym or training with Mr Satan, then that is lazy writing when there are extraordinary and magical ways they can make their gains. Beating up weaklings as a way to gain power is lazy.

I wonder if DBS Super Hero will get a remake. It would be cool if they can make some improvement. Teen Gotenks perfect fusion should appear, then he can appear in Dragon Ball games.

gains in the gym are lazy writing. beating up weaklings is lazy. But MAGIC is not lazy? Magic is by its nature something from nothing.

When it comes to physical and spiritual training, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. When they are training with partners, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. Magic on the other hand there is nothing to compare, since magic like you said they create things from nothing.

This is from DB:

Chapter: 54, P10.2-3
Context: after Kuririn says he and Goku will start training again once he returns to Kame House
Kame-sennin: “No no. I’ve already taught you practically all I have to teach. From now on, walk your own path. You should undergo your own training.”

After the 21st Martial, there was no point in training with Master Roshi since he taught them everything that they need to know.

Chapter: 113, P10.2-3
Context: Goku didn’t use Kinto’un to reach the tournament, since Kame-sennin told him not to use it while training.
Oolong: “D-don’t tell me you swam here…?!”
Goku: “Yeah. But just from this place called Yahhoi.”
Yamcha: “Y-Yahhoi…?!”
Bulma: “Th-that’s like almost on the opposite side of the Earth…!”
Oolong: “Wh-what were you thinking…!”

Master Roshi told Goku not to rely on his Kinto'un, as a way for his training.


Chapter: 150, P13.2-4
Context: Goku asks Karin to train him more
Karin: “Unfortunately…There’s nothing more for me to teach you…[ ] Yeah…I understand how you feel, but…You’ve already acquired enough power to surpass even me”…
Note: Previously, I had mistakenly put that Goku had almost gotten more power than Karin, due to carelessly mistaking mou sude ni/"already" for mou sugu ni/"almost"/"very soon". Sorry about that.

Karin taught everything that he could before, so there was nothing left to teach him, the only option was his magical drink that would either power up the user or kill the user.


Then in the Android Saga the humans decided to train like weakling, passing up the opportunity to train with the best on earth and in the best possible place. Kuririn decided to train with Master Roshi, which doesn't make sense since there is nothing left that Master Roshi can teach. Kuririn was already way stronger than Master Roshi at this point.
My point is this started in the Android Saga, however they never got a huge power boost, since their training was weak and ineffective.

[MasenkoHA]

Power scale is how we can tell who is stronger between two character, however they gain their power is important. If a character makes huge gains from things like training in a regular gym or training with Mr Satan, then that is lazy writing when there are extraordinary and magical ways they can make their gains. Beating up weaklings as a way to gain power is lazy.

I wonder if DBS Super Hero will get a remake. It would be cool if they can make some improvement. Teen Gotenks perfect fusion should appear, then he can appear in Dragon Ball games.

gains in the gym are lazy writing. beating up weaklings is lazy. But MAGIC is not lazy? Magic is by its nature something from nothing.

When it comes to physical and spiritual training, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. When they are training with partners, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. Magic on the other hand there is nothing to compare, since magic like you said they create things from nothing.

This is from DB:

Chapter: 54, P10.2-3
Context: after Kuririn says he and Goku will start training again once he returns to Kame House
Kame-sennin: “No no. I’ve already taught you practically all I have to teach. From now on, walk your own path. You should undergo your own training.”

After the 21st Martial, there was no point in training with Master Roshi since he taught them everything that they need to know.

Chapter: 113, P10.2-3
Context: Goku didn’t use Kinto’un to reach the tournament, since Kame-sennin told him not to use it while training.
Oolong: “D-don’t tell me you swam here…?!”
Goku: “Yeah. But just from this place called Yahhoi.”
Yamcha: “Y-Yahhoi…?!”
Bulma: “Th-that’s like almost on the opposite side of the Earth…!”
Oolong: “Wh-what were you thinking…!”

Master Roshi told Goku not to rely on his Kinto'un, as a way for his training.


Chapter: 150, P13.2-4
Context: Goku asks Karin to train him more
Karin: “Unfortunately…There’s nothing more for me to teach you…[ ] Yeah…I understand how you feel, but…You’ve already acquired enough power to surpass even me”…
Note: Previously, I had mistakenly put that Goku had almost gotten more power than Karin, due to carelessly mistaking mou sude ni/"already" for mou sugu ni/"almost"/"very soon". Sorry about that.

Karin taught everything that he could before, so there was nothing left to teach him, the only option was his magical drink that would either power up the user or kill the user.


Then in the Android Saga the humans decided to train like weakling, passing up the opportunity to train with the best on earth and in the best possible place. Kuririn decided to train with Master Roshi, which doesn't make sense since there is nothing left that Master Roshi can teach. Kuririn was already way stronger than Master Roshi at this point.
My point is this started in the Android Saga, however they never got a huge power boost, since their training was weak and ineffective.

They weren’t supposed to get a huge power boost. They had been resigned to cannon fodder since the Saiyan arc. Toriyama didn’t even bother to include Chaozu joining the fight because it would just be an extra character to draw. Yamcha was there just long enough to show the old geezer was strong and then dipped. This is the arc that concluded with Tenshinhan going “Yo I’m done being in the story peace out “

These aren’t characters in a Tabletop RPG meant to max out their stats. They’re supporting characters in a narrative work about hillbilly Jackie Chan becoming stronger.


And these characters had all trained with the highest ranking known God of the universe, except Kuririn who got all potential unlocked (by magic!!!). Doing the equivalent of “locking in” at the gym for 3 years was the best they were going to do.

[QuakingStar]

gains in the gym are lazy writing. beating up weaklings is lazy. But MAGIC is not lazy? Magic is by its nature something from nothing.

When it comes to physical and spiritual training, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. When they are training with partners, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. Magic on the other hand there is nothing to compare, since magic like you said they create things from nothing.

This is from DB:

Chapter: 54, P10.2-3
Context: after Kuririn says he and Goku will start training again once he returns to Kame House
Kame-sennin: “No no. I’ve already taught you practically all I have to teach. From now on, walk your own path. You should undergo your own training.”

After the 21st Martial, there was no point in training with Master Roshi since he taught them everything that they need to know.

Chapter: 113, P10.2-3
Context: Goku didn’t use Kinto’un to reach the tournament, since Kame-sennin told him not to use it while training.
Oolong: “D-don’t tell me you swam here…?!”
Goku: “Yeah. But just from this place called Yahhoi.”
Yamcha: “Y-Yahhoi…?!”
Bulma: “Th-that’s like almost on the opposite side of the Earth…!”
Oolong: “Wh-what were you thinking…!”

Master Roshi told Goku not to rely on his Kinto'un, as a way for his training.


Chapter: 150, P13.2-4
Context: Goku asks Karin to train him more
Karin: “Unfortunately…There’s nothing more for me to teach you…[ ] Yeah…I understand how you feel, but…You’ve already acquired enough power to surpass even me”…
Note: Previously, I had mistakenly put that Goku had almost gotten more power than Karin, due to carelessly mistaking mou sude ni/"already" for mou sugu ni/"almost"/"very soon". Sorry about that.

Karin taught everything that he could before, so there was nothing left to teach him, the only option was his magical drink that would either power up the user or kill the user.


Then in the Android Saga the humans decided to train like weakling, passing up the opportunity to train with the best on earth and in the best possible place. Kuririn decided to train with Master Roshi, which doesn't make sense since there is nothing left that Master Roshi can teach. Kuririn was already way stronger than Master Roshi at this point.
My point is this started in the Android Saga, however they never got a huge power boost, since their training was weak and ineffective.

They weren’t supposed to get a huge power boost. They had been resigned to cannon fodder since the Saiyan arc. Toriyama didn’t even bother to include Chaozu joining the fight because it would just be an extra character to draw. Yamcha was there just long enough to show the old geezer was strong and then dipped. This is the arc that concluded with Tenshinhan going “Yo I’m done being in the story peace out “

These aren’t characters in a Tabletop RPG meant to max out their stats. They’re supporting characters in a narrative work about hillbilly Jackie Chan becoming stronger.


And these characters had all trained with the highest ranking known God of the universe, except Kuririn who got all potential unlocked (by magic!!!). Doing the equivalent of “locking in” at the gym for 3 years was the best they were going to do.

Then in DBS Roshi becomes so strong that he he is now seemingly the strongest Human male character with Goku needing a serious base Kamehameha to defeat Buff Roshi, who already beat serious Tien. Goku implies Roshi had been training in secret the entire time, knowing he was being controlled. 17 was just on an Island fighting Poachers and the Cell Jrs for 10 years and he becomes a SSB level opponent. Toriyama does not CARE, he just wants to buff whichever character he wanted to buff and the only explanation for 17's growth is "17 has great potential" which sure, as a Cyborg enhanced at the cellular level and having basically unlimited energy who also never tires out as well... so training should be like a cheat code for him. Now imagine if even a Saiyan like Raditz was turned into a Cyborg? He'd be OP.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

Then in DBS Roshi becomes so strong that he he is now seemingly the strongest Human male character with Goku needing a serious base Kamehameha to defeat Buff Roshi, who already beat serious Tien. Goku implies Roshi had been training in secret the entire time, knowing he was being controlled. 17 was just on an Island fighting Poachers and the Cell Jrs for 10 years and he becomes a SSB level opponent. Toriyama does not CARE, he just wants to buff whichever character he wanted to buff and the only explanation for 17's growth is "17 has great potential" which sure, as a Cyborg enhanced at the cellular level and having basically unlimited energy who also never tires out as well... so training should be like a cheat code for him.

I don't know how Toriyama has anything to do with this, what he did was provide outlines for these arcs which seemingly lacked details such as how strong characters were supposed to be, that's why you'll see constant discrepancy between the anime and manga when it comes to the power levels, plus concepts being worked in different ways such as Gohan being in permanent ultimate state prior to the Super Hero arc, while in the anime he has to transform.
Toei had different writers for each episode of Super that's why the power levels are incosistent as hell, 17 fights SSJB Goku seemingly shows to be at the same level as him, only for in the Tournament to struggle against opponents who were clearly not supposed to be even SSJ3 Goku level, and he didn't seem to be superior to this Goku's form in the manga, and this is a character that we can't use the "was holding back" excuse because he has unlimited energy.
They pretty much did the same thing they did back then with characters like Yamcha and Tenshinhan in the Z anime after the Saiyajin arc, but in Super it got a lot worse because they had full freedom to play with it as there was no complete manga story for them to use as basis.

They made Goku spam Blue and use it against Kuririn and the Terror Forest's illlusions, who were all materializations of pre-Super villains plus Bulma.

In the case of Roshi, Toriyama indeed intended him to be stronger in the Fukkatsu no F movie, but never stronger than Kuririn or Tenshinhan as far as I remember.

[super michael]

gains in the gym are lazy writing. beating up weaklings is lazy. But MAGIC is not lazy? Magic is by its nature something from nothing.

When it comes to physical and spiritual training, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. When they are training with partners, it is easy to compare how their gains should be. Magic on the other hand there is nothing to compare, since magic like you said they create things from nothing.

This is from DB:

Chapter: 54, P10.2-3
Context: after Kuririn says he and Goku will start training again once he returns to Kame House
Kame-sennin: “No no. I’ve already taught you practically all I have to teach. From now on, walk your own path. You should undergo your own training.”

After the 21st Martial, there was no point in training with Master Roshi since he taught them everything that they need to know.

Chapter: 113, P10.2-3
Context: Goku didn’t use Kinto’un to reach the tournament, since Kame-sennin told him not to use it while training.
Oolong: “D-don’t tell me you swam here…?!”
Goku: “Yeah. But just from this place called Yahhoi.”
Yamcha: “Y-Yahhoi…?!”
Bulma: “Th-that’s like almost on the opposite side of the Earth…!”
Oolong: “Wh-what were you thinking…!”

Master Roshi told Goku not to rely on his Kinto'un, as a way for his training.


Chapter: 150, P13.2-4
Context: Goku asks Karin to train him more
Karin: “Unfortunately…There’s nothing more for me to teach you…[ ] Yeah…I understand how you feel, but…You’ve already acquired enough power to surpass even me”…
Note: Previously, I had mistakenly put that Goku had almost gotten more power than Karin, due to carelessly mistaking mou sude ni/"already" for mou sugu ni/"almost"/"very soon". Sorry about that.

Karin taught everything that he could before, so there was nothing left to teach him, the only option was his magical drink that would either power up the user or kill the user.


Then in the Android Saga the humans decided to train like weakling, passing up the opportunity to train with the best on earth and in the best possible place. Kuririn decided to train with Master Roshi, which doesn't make sense since there is nothing left that Master Roshi can teach. Kuririn was already way stronger than Master Roshi at this point.
My point is this started in the Android Saga, however they never got a huge power boost, since their training was weak and ineffective.

They weren’t supposed to get a huge power boost. They had been resigned to cannon fodder since the Saiyan arc. Toriyama didn’t even bother to include Chaozu joining the fight because it would just be an extra character to draw. Yamcha was there just long enough to show the old geezer was strong and then dipped. This is the arc that concluded with Tenshinhan going “Yo I’m done being in the story peace out “

These aren’t characters in a Tabletop RPG meant to max out their stats. They’re supporting characters in a narrative work about hillbilly Jackie Chan becoming stronger.


And these characters had all trained with the highest ranking known God of the universe, except Kuririn who got all potential unlocked (by magic!!!). Doing the equivalent of “locking in” at the gym for 3 years was the best they were going to do.

Before the Android Saga, Goku wanted to train with anyone for 3 years. He offered the humans a chance to train with himself but they refused. In the Cell Saga the humans were given the opportunity to train in the ROSAT and again they refused. It isn't like Goku said they are too weak to train with him, they clearly didn't want to train someone equal or superior to themselves. The same with the ROSAT, they were allowed to use it, but they all refused.

Piccolo trained in the ROSAT, while Vegeta and Future Trunks trained a second time in the ROSAT but they couldn't make a difference, however at least they tried their best.


If in DBS they wanted the humans to make huge gains, then they should have put some effort to how they gained their powers.


Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P11.5, P12.1
Context: after catching Bubbles
Kaio: “He may be the one who can master the Kaio-Ken!!! The Kaio-Ken that I drew up in my dreams, but could never master myself!!!!”

Goku is the only one to have mastered the Kaioken, which not even Kaio could master it himself.

[QuakingStar]

Spoiler:

Then in DBS Roshi becomes so strong that he he is now seemingly the strongest Human male character with Goku needing a serious base Kamehameha to defeat Buff Roshi, who already beat serious Tien. Goku implies Roshi had been training in secret the entire time, knowing he was being controlled. 17 was just on an Island fighting Poachers and the Cell Jrs for 10 years and he becomes a SSB level opponent. Toriyama does not CARE, he just wants to buff whichever character he wanted to buff and the only explanation for 17's growth is "17 has great potential" which sure, as a Cyborg enhanced at the cellular level and having basically unlimited energy who also never tires out as well... so training should be like a cheat code for him.

I don't know how Toriyama has anything to do with this, what he did was provide outlines for these arcs which seemingly lacked details such as how strong characters were supposed to be, that's why you'll see constant discrepancy between the anime and manga when it comes to the power levels, plus concepts being worked in different ways such as Gohan being in permanent ultimate state prior to the Super Hero arc, while in the anime he has to transform.
Toei had different writers for each episode of Super that's why the power levels are incosistent as hell, 17 fights SSJB Goku seemingly shows to be at the same level as him, only for in the Tournament to struggle against opponents who were clearly not supposed to be even SSJ3 Goku level, and he didn't seem to be superior to this Goku's form in the manga, and this is a character that we can't use the "was holding back" excuse because he has unlimited energy.
They pretty much did the same thing they did back then with characters like Yamcha and Tenshinhan in the Z anime after the Saiyajin arc, but in Super it got a lot worse because they had full freedom to play with it as there was no complete manga story for them to use as basis.

They made Goku spam Blue and use it against Kuririn and the Terror Forest's illlusions, who were all materializations of pre-Super villains plus Bulma.

In the case of Roshi, Toriyama indeed intended him to be stronger in the Fukkatsu no F movie, but never stronger than Kuririn or Tenshinhan as far as I remember.

17 can in fact hold back and power up. Future 17 literally tells Gohan he was only using half his power last time they fought. Goku and 17 both were stated to be holding back in their sparring fight as Goku was testing 17 and 17 just wasn't going FP and both Goku and Vegeta agree that 17 was about as strong as they were after the ToP, but of course they would not be referring to Blue Evolved or UI and they were clearly not equals. 17 for a fact can get stronger, and he does so in the manga and anime through training. He was fighting SS3 Goku and wasn't struggling at all, in fact when Goku saw his Ki attack he was about to unleash Goku wanted to stop the fight while 17 was unbothered. SSB level is also not one set level as RoF SSB level would be shat on by FT Saga SSB level, and ToP Blue level would shit on FT Saga SSB level and so forth.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

17 can in fact hold back and power up. Future 17 literally tells Gohan he was only using half his power last time they fought. Goku and 17 both were stated to be holding back in their sparring fight as Goku was testing 17 and 17 just wasn't going FP and both Goku and Vegeta agree that 17 was about as strong as they were after the ToP, but of course they would not be referring to Blue Evolved or UI and they were clearly not equals. 17 for a fact can get stronger, and he does so in the manga and anime through training. He was fighting SS3 Goku and wasn't struggling at all, in fact when Goku saw his Ki attack he was about to unleash Goku wanted to stop the fight while 17 was unbothered. SSB level is also not one set level as RoF SSB level would be shat on by FT Saga SSB level, and ToP Blue level would shit on FT Saga SSB level and so forth.

I don't disagree that he trained and got a lot stronger though, my point was more about how Toriyama has probably nothing to do with the power levels, that's why they are worked different when you compare the anime and the manga.
Regardless of what Goku said after the ToP, in the manga he still decided to stop at SSJ3 when testing 17, with the two pretty much being equal, the fight works as the equivalent to SSJB Goku vs 17 in the anime.
In the anime 17 shows some impressive feats such as using a full power blast to get Jiren off-guard. But then there are episodes where he needs to team up in order to beat weaker opponents such as U3 warriors. With other characters things are more clear because they can transform, but with 17 it was probably complicated for the writers to work with his power. Later on his blasts only do major damage to Jiren after he was already weakened to the point of being slightly stronger than Base Goku and Final Form Freeza together.
In the manga his self-destruction has no effects on Jiren, but is able to destroy his attack in the anime. So I think it highly depends.

As for SSJB, in the anime it's because Goku and Vegeta got stronger in their base forms throughout the arcs, I think that could even be the reason why Toei introduces SSJB + Kaioken earlier, as they likely didn't see the transformation being overpowered. The manga also has Goku and Vegeta getting stronger in their base forms but stops at the Zamasu arc so what happens is the transformation being overpowered, then being enhanced with power control through 3 arcs, so the form will naturaly be better in the posterior arcs because they learned how to make better use of it ala Cell arc's Full Power SSJ. In the manga SSJB Goku managed to be nearly superior to Full Power Fused Zamasu, while in the anime he needed to use Kaioken to overwhelm Pre-Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

[QuakingStar]

17 was not struggling with SS3 Goku at all, and after the ToP Goku and Vegeta agree 17 is about as strong as they are. Obviously he would only be comparing with the staple form they have been using which is SSB. About is also not equal. 17 is a SSB level fighter, he just isn't the same strength as SSB Goku for example.

[angeldreamZ004]

I'm not saying he can't be SSJB Level, what I'm saying is that the anime and the manga work with it different. Showing is more important than telling, and Toei shows us a 17 that is a lot more impressive than the one in the manga also thanks to more screentime, he does a lot more to Jiren than he does in the manga.
I know he doesn't struggle against SSJ3 Goku, my point is that regardless of that Toyotaro still decided to make Goku use that form to test him, instead of God or straight up Blue like Toei did. Both in the end had the goal of showing that 17 wasn't stronger than Goku, but equal, or else Toyotaro would've made him force to use God or Blue to show superiority, but he decided to not make it seem like he was much superior to him because it wasn't meant to be them at their full power. (Also we're probably only talking about this because I wrote wrong in a previous post, with "ssj3 goku level opponents" I meant ssj2 not 3 and how Toei made him struggle against those opponents, and "he didn't seem to be superior to this form of goku in the manga" right after made it seem like I was referring to SSJ3 but I actually tried to refer to Blue, my bad)
We don't how much how much further 17 would force Goku to go, the line after the tournament ends could be referring to SSJB + Kaioken as well.
Then in the Anime Tournament 17 engages a lot more in the fight against Jiren than in the manga. This only leads me to understand that Toyotaro tried to expose more the idea that he was the weakest among them (SSJB Goku & Vegeta, Golden Freeza), unlike Toei in the anime (despite the inconsistences), but it's my guess.

[QuakingStar]

He was already confirmed weaker than Goku, Vegeta and Frieza. But yeah, Toriyama simply says he has "Great Potential" and had him training with the Cell Jr's and fighting off Poachers for 10 years. So for Roshi to be secretly training and become so strong that at FP Tien cannot beat him, and then for them to say he is stronger than Goten and Trunks, just not when they use SS that goes to show Roshi made a gargantuan leap in power too. DBS just has a problem with making people astronomically stronger with no actual good explanation. Gohan was always the type to grow like that for example. but Roshi and 17? Nah.

[super michael]

Master Roshi never trained with Mr Popo and Kami and he never learned how to fly. It never made sense how in the manga of DBS Master Roshi gained fake UI, the one who should have got it should have been Piccolo. He has all the memories and experience of Nails and Kami.

Cell Jr doesn't exist in the anime version of DBS, plus when Piccolo questions what type of training C17 and his answer was that he just protects the island. They could have easily explained that C17 having his bomb removed and infinity ki leak into his body boosted his power, that would have been believable. Future C17 and C18 never got their bomb removed and their power is way lower than their present version in DBS.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

Master Roshi never trained with Mr Popo and Kami and he never learned how to fly. It never made sense how in the manga of DBS Master Roshi gained fake UI, the one who should have got it should have been Piccolo. He has all the memories and experience of Nails and Kami.

But yourself gave the explanation for it, it's "Fake UI', what Roshi did was simply show Goku a fighting style that resembles UI, whose was never restricted to the teachings of Popo / Kami, then Goku by observing translates it into a transformation that gives him access to the actual UI, which is straight up a technique not just a fighting style.

As for Piccolo, i don't know if you're talking about Real UI or "fake UI", but the former it's simply because he lacks the training and god ki for it. The latter though indeed there's nothing holding him.

[QuakingStar]

Spoiler:

Master Roshi never trained with Mr Popo and Kami and he never learned how to fly. It never made sense how in the manga of DBS Master Roshi gained fake UI, the one who should have got it should have been Piccolo. He has all the memories and experience of Nails and Kami.

But yourself gave the explanation for it, it's "Fake UI', what Roshi did was simply show Goku a fighting style that resembles UI, whose was never restricted to the teachings of Popo / Kami, then Goku by observing translates it into a transformation that gives him access to the actual UI, which is straight up a technique not just a fighting style.

As for Piccolo, i don't know if you're talking about Real UI or "fake UI", but the former it's simply because he lacks the training and god ki for it. The latter though indeed there's nothing holding him.

When Piccolo fused with Kami, he was still God of Earth. Like Dende he should have possessed God Ki and therefore able to sense it(Piccolo is able to sense it later somehow anyway). This means that even if he doesn't know how to access it yet Piccolo should have God Ki within. The next step for Piccolo should be training to tap into and master his God Ki, the boost it would give to Piccolo and his Orange form would be huge too.

[MasenkoHA]

Spoiler:

Master Roshi never trained with Mr Popo and Kami and he never learned how to fly. It never made sense how in the manga of DBS Master Roshi gained fake UI, the one who should have got it should have been Piccolo. He has all the memories and experience of Nails and Kami.

But yourself gave the explanation for it, it's "Fake UI', what Roshi did was simply show Goku a fighting style that resembles UI, whose was never restricted to the teachings of Popo / Kami, then Goku by observing translates it into a transformation that gives him access to the actual UI, which is straight up a technique not just a fighting style.

As for Piccolo, i don't know if you're talking about Real UI or "fake UI", but the former it's simply because he lacks the training and god ki for it. The latter though indeed there's nothing holding him.

When Piccolo fused with Kami, he was still God of Earth. Like Dende he should have possessed God Ki and therefore able to sense it(Piccolo is able to sense it later somehow anyway). This means that even if he doesn't know how to access it yet Piccolo should have God Ki within. The next step for Piccolo should be training to tap into and master his God Ki, the boost it would give to Piccolo and his Orange form would be huge too.

When Piccolo and Kami re-assimilated there was no longer a God of Earth. That’s kinda why Dende got recruited

[super michael]

But yourself gave the explanation for it, it's "Fake UI', what Roshi did was simply show Goku a fighting style that resembles UI, whose was never restricted to the teachings of Popo / Kami, then Goku by observing translates it into a transformation that gives him access to the actual UI, which is straight up a technique not just a fighting style.

As for Piccolo, i don't know if you're talking about Real UI or "fake UI", but the former it's simply because he lacks the training and god ki for it. The latter though indeed there's nothing holding him.

When Piccolo fused with Kami, he was still God of Earth. Like Dende he should have possessed God Ki and therefore able to sense it(Piccolo is able to sense it later somehow anyway). This means that even if he doesn't know how to access it yet Piccolo should have God Ki within. The next step for Piccolo should be training to tap into and master his God Ki, the boost it would give to Piccolo and his Orange form would be huge too.

When Piccolo and Kami re-assimilated there was no longer a God of Earth. That’s kinda why Dende got recruited

Piccolo may not be a God of Earth, but he fused with Kami who was the God of Earth with plenty of experience using God Ki and God techniques. We know Dende God Ki is still weak and requires more time for his Godly powers to grow.

Kami does say that when they fuse, Piccolo will know everything that Kami knows. On Namek we saw Piccolo knew things that Nail knew, which Dende noticed that Piccolo fused with Nail.

[QuakingStar]

But yourself gave the explanation for it, it's "Fake UI', what Roshi did was simply show Goku a fighting style that resembles UI, whose was never restricted to the teachings of Popo / Kami, then Goku by observing translates it into a transformation that gives him access to the actual UI, which is straight up a technique not just a fighting style.

As for Piccolo, i don't know if you're talking about Real UI or "fake UI", but the former it's simply because he lacks the training and god ki for it. The latter though indeed there's nothing holding him.

When Piccolo fused with Kami, he was still God of Earth. Like Dende he should have possessed God Ki and therefore able to sense it(Piccolo is able to sense it later somehow anyway). This means that even if he doesn't know how to access it yet Piccolo should have God Ki within. The next step for Piccolo should be training to tap into and master his God Ki, the boost it would give to Piccolo and his Orange form would be huge too.

When Piccolo and Kami re-assimilated there was no longer a God of Earth. That’s kinda why Dende got recruited

God Ki doesn't disappear, that would make no sense. Piccolo like Kid Buu just doesn't know how to use it or tap into it.

[tinlunlau]

Had anyone happen to see this in their Facebook threads? Other than a few flaws, it's not bad for AI. Buu's hands though...

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1D1cjAgbRy/