Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Yeah I thought the compatison was to Beerus. That was something that people found odd before but now they've retconned Beerus' power and he's over 19x stronger than SSJG then it doesn't really disprove anything now.

Considering how strong Frieza was I don't think it's particularly farfetched anymore.

Why Cabba is as strong is a mystery but whatever and how Super Saiyan ties into it I don't know.

[LowRyder2005]

So what exactly contradicts Base Goku/Vegeta from being as strong as Super Saiyan God again?

I'm all over the place in where to actually place them but it's not impossible that they could be that strong is it?

From a personal point-of-view, unless one would start by claiming that it's "bad writing", "Toriyama forgets about continuity" and such, it'd be exactly having Piccolo able to beat a weakened opponent that a Super Saiyan God can't beat at full power with six months of random training with a Gohan who got so weak that he can barely go Super Saiyan (when he could do it easily in BOG, and when he could still go Chou if he needed extra power), I guess. It basically destroys every narrative continuity from Buu Saga up to the very tournament.

Now, I still have Base Goku and Base Vegeta at least considerably stronger than Goku SS3 if they get serious (it would be a perfectly reasonable consequence of gaining some kind of "godly power") given the Freeza's fight and Beerus' recent brief skirmish, but to me it's painfully clear that in the tournament Goku and Vegeta take it very, very easy against anyone both when fighting in base (always without drawing extra power, I base this on the fact that not even once they show an hint of an aura and/or a kiai) and when fighting in SS form (Frost = gets stomped; SS Cabba = Vegeta was feigning being at disadvantage; he is no match). And the fact that Piccolo + six months of perfectly normal training can do as much as scratch one of their best fighters seals the deal, to me.

On a side note, an argument could be made for Magetta's durability being far superior to anything seen in Z or even having the sheer power to take SS Vegeta on, nevertheless. This would be based on Vegeta expressly referring to his punches being dangerous.
But given that Frost is supposed to be the best of the team as a fighter (bar Hit and the-not-yet-seen SS Cabba), this further cements in my head the idea that Vegeta is still going in a ki-consumption mode, but Magetta's is nigh-invulnerability ends up forcing him to put him down with a fully-powered attack.

[LightBing]

Piccolo apparently being close to such a level, with nobody saying anything should be noted. Way too significant to be overlooked.

In the manga, Goku doesn't absorb the God Power. The narrator just says he and Vegeta trained with Whis and obtained SSJB, which surpassed SSJG. The way Goku talks, it appears Mr.Boo takes precedence to Piccolo, when thinking about the tournament. So it's likely the status quo is maintained, Mr.Boo and Piccolo don't see to have gained power, at least significant power.
Which reinforces the idea that the base Saiyans aren't even close to God Level.

[dbzfan7]

When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back). He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again).

I don't think he has that potential unleashed state anymore. Looked like Base Gohan vs Piccolo to me. I wondered if he did considering his new hair style, but it turns out just like Krillin, he reverted right back to the BOG look. I think he's still the base/SSJ user at the moment. Especially considering he's still being retrained. Also his eyebrows in the fight look more like base than Ultimate, which even Super shows a difference with.

[LowRyder2005]

When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back). He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again).

I don't think he has that potential unleashed state anymore. Looked like Base Gohan vs Piccolo to me. I wondered if he did considering his new hair style, but it turns out just like Krillin, he reverted right back to the BOG look. I think he's still the base/SSJ user at the moment. Especially considering he's still be retrained. Also his eyebrows in the fight look more like base than Ultimate.

Oh, my idea is the same, actually; I agree that we have no idea if he can even go Chou again right now.
I mentioned a 70% simply because I was specifically going for a non-conservative estimation.

[dbzfan7]

When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back). He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again).

I don't think he has that potential unleashed state anymore. Looked like Base Gohan vs Piccolo to me. I wondered if he did considering his new hair style, but it turns out just like Krillin, he reverted right back to the BOG look. I think he's still the base/SSJ user at the moment. Especially considering he's still be retrained. Also his eyebrows in the fight look more like base than Ultimate.

Oh, my idea is the same, actually; I agree that we have no idea if he can even go Chou again right now.
I mentioned a 70% simply because I was specifically going for a non-conservative estimation.

It's also one of the many reasons I don't buy Piccolo being so strong as some believe. That would in turn make Gohan ridiculously strong, despite him being trained from the basics, and not seemingly having his full power back. It'd also make SSJ Gohan stronger than or close to SSJ Goku/Vegeta according to some lists that have Piccolo above base Goku/Vegeta, which makes no sense at all.

[Bullza]

it'd be exactly having Piccolo able to beat a weakened opponent that a Super Saiyan God can't beat at full power with six months of random training with a Gohan who got so weak that he can barely go Super Saiyan

But Goku and Piccolo did say he had no chance at beating him and Piccolo didn't even want to fight him in his Final Form. Throughout the fight all he did was fight on the defensive and never even got hit until the cheat move at the end.

The anime does mess that up a bit by saying the Special Beam canopnon could have beat him though.

But the things that point to Base being equal to Super Saiyan God are

1. Him stopping Beerus' blast

2. Taking "hits" and a blast directly from an unrestrained Beerus and briefly being stunned.

3. Goku saying that Vegeta had powered up hugely and didn't even recognise him at first.

4. Whis' comparison of them being at the low end of the God realm or whatever was said.

5. Vegeta being able to sense God Ki.

6. Super Saiyan Blue being the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God which should mean they have the power of Super Saiyan God without Super Saiyan.

7. The 5 Z Fighters being no match at all for Frieza in his First Form and then got tremendously more powerful in his Final Form and Base Goku can still match him.

8. The image in the Resurrection F manga.

9. The Saiyan Beyond God label.

10. Goku putting up a good fight against Beerus in the episode the other week.

[Lord Beerus]

Looks like Base Goku is the very least a good deal stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as he was able block an attack from Copy Vegeta and seemed to practically shrug off an an Attack from him. And judging from the NEP, it seems as though Goku doesn't power up beyond his base form to fight Copy Vegeta either.

[ZombieVito]

So I guess the theory is proven then?

[Bullza]

New episode. According to Herms the water just stole Vegeta's powers and doesn't actually make them any stronger so Copy Vegeta = Base Vegeta

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge him with a full forced attack and was effortlessly stomped.

Base Goku looks to be match for Copy Vegeta, naturally.

So it does give an idea of how Toei at least stacks things up. At this point Buu arc characters are pretty much fodder. Frieza is definitely stronger than Kid Buu, Super Buu even (and probably with absorptions).

I dunno I'd they probably are just as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base.

[DragonHermit]

DB has gotten to the point where there are contradictions in power levels.

Even so, if Toriyama didn't write the filler, I see no point in using it to measure power levels.

[pacz360]

And people say base goku and vegeta aren't stronger than ssj3 tier+ characters this proves that at Least u6 fighters are much stronger than most fuckers in the buu saga.

[Neon Z]

When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back). He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again).

I don't think he has that potential unleashed state anymore. Looked like Base Gohan vs Piccolo to me. I wondered if he did considering his new hair style, but it turns out just like Krillin, he reverted right back to the BOG look. I think he's still the base/SSJ user at the moment. Especially considering he's still being retrained. Also his eyebrows in the fight look more like base than Ultimate, which even Super shows a difference with.

Gohan had the "ultimate" face (with the fully outlined eyes) in the Pan episode though, if you really think that means anything.

[Bullza]

DB has gotten to the point where there are contradictions in power levels.

It'd be contradicting if he'd had trouble. He beat him as he should have beaten him, effortlessly.

All the Universe 6 fighters make a mockery of Buu saga level characters. Except maybe Botamo, we don't know really exactly where he stands.

It shouldn't be surprising, this is how Dragon Ball works, characters get stronger as they go on and make previous threats look like dirt. This is three sagas past the Buu saga now, they shouldn't be expected to be close.

[dbzfan7]

When he's training with Piccolo he still says that, although more powerful than his ROF's self, he's still in the process of getting re-trained from scratch (to presumably gain the power he had lost back). He may be at 70% of his former power during the Buu Saga at the time of the tourney (having re-unlocked his Chou form again).

I don't think he has that potential unleashed state anymore. Looked like Base Gohan vs Piccolo to me. I wondered if he did considering his new hair style, but it turns out just like Krillin, he reverted right back to the BOG look. I think he's still the base/SSJ user at the moment. Especially considering he's still being retrained. Also his eyebrows in the fight look more like base than Ultimate, which even Super shows a difference with.

Gohan had the "ultimate" face (with the fully outlined eyes) in the Pan episode though, if you really think that means anything.

I'd have too look again. Gohan vs Beerus has different eyes and look compared to fighting Piccolo. That I checked.

[pacz360]

DB has gotten to the point where there are contradictions in power levels.

Even so, if Toriyama didn't write the filler, I see no point in using it to measure power levels.

Um theres no contradiction here it proves that base goku and vegeta are simply this strong.

[TheMikado]

DB has gotten to the point where there are contradictions in power levels.

Even so, if Toriyama didn't write the filler, I see no point in using it to measure power levels.

Um theres no contradiction here it proves that base goku and vegeta are simply this strong.

Yeah so does this pretty much mean all universe 7 characters are God Tier?

[pacz360]

DB has gotten to the point where there are contradictions in power levels.

Even so, if Toriyama didn't write the filler, I see no point in using it to measure power levels.

Um theres no contradiction here it proves that base goku and vegeta are simply this strong.

Yeah so does this pretty much mean all universe 7 characters are God Tier?

Goku and vegeta are just buu and piccolo aren't

[supercat]

DB has gotten to the point where there are contradictions in power levels.

It'd be contradicting if he'd had trouble. He beat him as he should have beaten him, effortlessly.

All the Universe 6 fighters make a mockery of Buu saga level characters. Except maybe Botamo, we don't know really exactly where he stands.

It shouldn't be surprising, this is how Dragon Ball works, characters get stronger as they go on and make previous threats look like dirt. This is three sagas past the Buu saga now, they shouldn't be expected to be close.

This is exactly what I've been trying to articulate; with the possible exception of Botamo, I can't see any form of Buu even fazing Champa's team of powerhouses.

Final Form Frost > Tired Final Form Frost > Piccolo > / = Assault Form Frost > / = Final Form Frieza > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Vegetto > Third Form Frieza > / = SSJ Vegetto > Second Form Frieza > First Form Frieza = Buuhan = First Form Frost > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Mr. Buu

For those of you who believe that Kid Buu was in fact the finest contender of his incarnations:

Final Form Frost > Tired Final Form Frost > Piccolo > / = Assault Form Frost > / = Final Form Frieza > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Vegetto > Third Form Frieza > / = SSJ Vegetto > Second Form Frieza > First Form Frieza = Kid Buu = First Form Frost > Buuhan > Buutenks > SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

In any case, I feel like Buu just took Broly's title as the most overrated character.

[dbzfan7]

So with this ep I now do my lunacy levels.

Omni King
Omni Guards
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
SSJBKK10 Goku
Hit Time Skip Max
SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit
SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Cabba
SSJ Gohan
True Frost
Assault Form/Base Goku/Base Vegeta/Googeta (For now)
Tired Frost
Piccolo/Base Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Boo
1st Form Frost
Botamo