Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because this line further illustrates the weakness of #19 and #20, he's doubting the level of threat Future Trunks told them the androids were.

It doesn't further illustrate their weakness, Piccolo's basically saying:

"Were you not as strong as expected... or have we just grown too strong...?"

If the latter part is true, which the way he says it implies, then #20 would still be as strong as expected and Piccolo and the others would've just grown too strong for the expected Androids.

Still don't understand why that's important to Kuririn's line.

My point is #17 and #18 don't have to be included in Krillin's line, at least in my opinion.

I don't put SS Trunks that above Mecha Freeza, but irrelevant anyway.

Why? Trunks told Freeza and Cold to come at him full power.

#20 had already absorbed energy at that point of the battle, so did #19 when Vegeta arrived at that battlefield, not sure why that's relevant to prove that the androids were stronger than Freeza from the start.

It doesn't have to be from the start, but I mean overall including post-absorptions I think it's a bit redundant for them to be weaker than fodder like Freeza.

A sick Goku not too much stronger than 3 years back was stronger, so what's the big deal here?

Did you not read the two quotes? Monsters with power beyond imagination. Trunks said he could barely escape even going one-on-one. How would he be stronger?

Who said sick Goku isn't too much stronger than Yardrat Goku?

[Doctor.]

My point is #17 and #18 don't have to be included in Krillin's line, at least in my opinion.

Does it matter who Kuririn is referring to? He was just asking Goku if he was scared an opponent stronger than Freeza showed up, whether he was talking about 17 and 18 or Cell is irrelevant to the point. Kuririn didn't know Goku saw all in his dreams, and the last opponents Goku saw were post-absorption #19 and pre-absorption #20, so the implication is that he considered #19 and #20 inferior to Freeza, otherwise he wouldn't have made the comparison. He wouldn't have mentioned Freeza at all, if #19 and #20 where stronger.

Why? Trunks told Freeza and Cold to come at him full power.

Because Gohan says when Freeza arrives that he can still power-up further and then when they fought Trunks, nobody of the Dragon Team noticed a significant power increase like they should have if Freeza was being serious. So I can only assume Freeza was being arrogant, or it takes time to go 100% like on Namek.

It doesn't have to be from the start, but I mean overall including post-absorptions I think it's a bit redundant for them to be weaker than fodder like Freeza.

I don't think they're weaker than Freeza after absorptions, anyway. I was arguing about their power when they first appeared.

Did you not read the two quotes? Monsters with power beyond imagination. Trunks said he could barely escape even going one-on-one. How would he be stronger?

Meh. Again, those statements by Vegeta and Piccolo were after the androids had absorbed Ki, I already agree they're stronger than Freeza there.

Who said sick Goku isn't too much stronger than Yardrat Goku?

Piccolo saying Goku should be much stronger, that's all. Plus, #19 not killing Goku, yet he was doing plenty of damage to Vegeta.

Tenshinhan certainly seemed surprised enough, but with how weak he is, any power increase in the millions is already enough to do that.

[LightBing]

Because this line further illustrates the weakness of #19 and #20, he's doubting the level of threat Future Trunks told them the androids were.

It doesn't further illustrate their weakness, Piccolo's basically saying:

"Were you not as strong as expected... or have we just grown too strong...?"

If the latter part is true, which the way he says it implies, then #20 would still be as strong as expected and Piccolo and the others would've just grown too strong for the expected Androids.

You have to take into account the context. Piccolo has no idea exactly how strong the androids were supposed to be, just that Trunks said they were really powerful. If he could make a direct comparison why not just say they are weaker, after all he felt Trunks 3 years ago. Trunks who said himself to be able to fight one-on-one evenly with them(future #18 and future #17).
The ambiguity of the line is to disregard them, without totally crapping on them.That's how I see it.

[ahill1]

Only Trunks (Android arc) could fight against the Androids; Trunks (android arc) > > > Trunks (mecha arc)

Goku (yardrat saga) > > Future Trunks (yardrat saga). Yet the power of Goku just gave a little hope to Trunks and Trunks knew that Goku would train for 3 years, though Vegeta's son wasn't sure as to the outcome of the fight. For me the Z warriors hoped that the androids were at least 2 x stronger than Goku (yardrat saga) and 3 x stronger than Trunks.

Trunks(mecha arc) can 1-2 shot Mecha Freeza
Mecha arc Goku is stronger than Trunks
Sick Goku is much stronger than Mecha arc Goku
Sick Goku was not capable of one-shot 19(initial)
So 19>>>Freeza

[ahill1]

I'll post my list here. I'm not sure who's stronger: Goku SSJ(mecha freeza saga) or Android 19(initial).

Dragon Ball arc


Goku 10
~Oozaru 100

Yamcha 9

Kuririn 7

Gyumao 15

Roshi 20


21st Budokai

Bacterian 12

Yamcha 12

Ranfan 13.5

Giran 14

Kuririn 16

Namu 19

Goku 20
~Oozaru 200

Roshi 20


Red Ribbon part 1

Silver 10

Murasaki 16

Metallic 18

Goku 20

A-8 24


Red Ribbon part 2

Kuririn 16

Pirate Robot 17

Blue 18

Goku 22


Red Ribbon part 3

Blue 18

Bora 18.5

Goku 22

Tao Pai Pai 30

Goku(post karin) 36

Karin 67


Uranai Baba arc

Draculaman 10.6

Invisible man 11

Yamcha 12

Kuririn 16

Mummy 22

Akkuman 26

Son Gohan 34.2

Goku 36


22nd Budokai

Panput 22

Chapa-o 34

Chaozu 38

Yamcha 40

Kuririn 40

Tsuru 55

Roshi 60

Tenshinhan 70

Goku 70


Piccolo Daimao

flashback
Roshi(young) 63
Tsuru(young) 63
Mutaito 67

Kuririn 40

Cymbal 45

Tambourine 60

Yajirobe 66

Karin 67

Tenshinhan 70

Goku 70

Drum 90

Old Piccolo Daimao 150

Young Piccolo Daimao 200

Goku(post water) 200

Mr Popo 275

Kami 310


23rd Budokai

Chapa-o 50

Chaozu 120

Yajirobe 120

Chi Chi 130(weekly jump)

Cyborg Tao 150

Yamcha 165

Kuririn 180

Tenshinhan 220

Shen 300

Kami 310

Piccolo Jr 375

Goku(weighted) 220
~W/o weights 380


Suggestions are welcome!

[Hugo Boss]

Honestly, I don't think the difference between Super Saiyan Goku in that fight and on Namek was any significant. He trained for 3 years for sure but even so his gains (if at all) should be minor without special conditions. The ones that were said to be significantly stronger were Vegeta and Piccolo only. Also, I have a hard time picturing Piccolo's powerlevel anywhere near Freeza's without namekian fusions. Then, #19 and #20 are even less impressive.

[ahill1]

I understand your point of view, Hugo Boss. But it was suggested there is a big difference between Goku (yardrat arc) and Androids, even so Goku still had confidence in his power. Goku's power gave only a little hope for Trunks, then was involved a big difference between future androids and Goku / Trunks. So I ask: Goku was so confident going against androids supposedly much stronger than Trunks if he had not made a considerable power up? So he must have had substantial gains. Trunks (android arc) said he could do very well against the androids and Goku (android arc) is even stronger than Trunks, so Son Goku (android arc) have to be close or equal to the future androids, which crush yardrat Goku.

Goku SSJ namek 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza 160,000,000
Future Trunks(mecha freeza saga) 240,000,000
Goku(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000
Future Trunks(android saga) 450,000,000
Goku(android saga) 480,000,000
Future 18 480,000,000
Future 17 500,000,000

[LightBing]

I understand your point of view, Hugo Boss. But it was suggested there is a big difference between Goku (yardrat arc) and Androids, even so Goku still had confidence in his power. Goku's power gave only a little hope for Trunks, then was involved a big difference between future androids and Goku / Trunks. So I ask: Goku was so confident going against androids supposedly much stronger than Trunks if he had not made a considerable power up? So he must have had substantial gains. Trunks (android arc) said he could do very well against the androids and Goku (android arc) is even stronger than Trunks, so Son Goku (android arc) have to be close or equal to the future androids, which crush yardrat Goku.

Goku SSJ namek 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza 160,000,000
Future Trunks(mecha freeza saga) 240,000,000
Goku(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000
Future Trunks(android saga) 450,000,000
Goku(android saga) 480,000,000
Future 18 480,000,000
Future 17 500,000,000

I don't remember Goku being confident. Kuririn asked him if he could defeat them and he said he didn't know.
Also I strongly disagree that Goku doubled his power in the year he was training in Yardrat. When he mentions, he spent a considerable amount of time trying to control Super Saiyan and learning Shunkan Ido. Also, I don't believe Goku was stronger than Trunks when he first appeared.

[ahill1]

Just for Goku attend the fight shows that he was confident.

Mecha Frieza is slightly stronger than Goku SSJ in namek.
Trunks suggests he can beat Mecha Frieza instantly, it implies at least a 1.5x gap.
SSJ Goku (yardrat saga) > SSJ Goku (trunks estimation) > Trunks(yardrat saga) - this implies at least a 1.25x gap.

Goku (yardrat saga) >> Trunks (yardrat saga) >>> Mecha Frieza> = SSJ Goku (namek)

Thus it is quite possible that Goku doubled his power at that time.

[ZombieVito]

So I was slightly reworking my Buu saga power levels and I wanted to see where you guys put these three:

Super Buu:
Gotenks [SSJ3]:
Gohan [Ultimate]:

I also was reading Daizenshuu 2 and found this interesting quote:

Gotenks' most powerful form. In a few days' training, the two of them learn Super Saiyan 3, which took Goku many years to do. This form possesses the ability to fight equally with Majin Buu.

What do you guys think?

[ahill1]

Super Buu 10
Gotenks (SSJ3) 10
Ultimate Gohan 15

[RandomGuy96]

So I was slightly reworking my Buu saga power levels and I wanted to see where you guys put these three:

Super Buu:
Gotenks [SSJ3]:
Gohan [Ultimate]:

I also was reading Daizenshuu 2 and found this interesting quote:

Gotenks' most powerful form. In a few days' training, the two of them learn Super Saiyan 3, which took Goku many years to do. This form possesses the ability to fight equally with Majin Buu.

What do you guys think?

I think the Daizenshuu is just making a subjective judgement of a fight scene. Which certainly wasn't even.

[Hugo Boss]

Just for Goku attend the fight shows that he was confident.

Mecha Freeza is slightly stronger than Goku SSJ in namek.

Goku was not confident, just curious about how strong they androids really were. And he attended at fights he knew he couldn't win, like with Cell.

Also, Mecha Freeza's comment is not definitive proof that he is stronger than Goku. The latter said he went too easy against Freeza.

[ahill1]

We saw the facial expression of Goku that he is confident. He is not sure that will win, but is excited about fighting really strong opponents, something he would not be if it had not substantially increased his power.
The Mecha Freeza's comment suggests that he is> = SSJ Goku (namek); he has confidence in his powers, but still not so sure ... Does he hoped that Goku had increased his powers? I do not know ... If Goku is a 150 then Mecha Frieza is definitely 155-160. You are a supporter of the 120 million number for Freeza? I'm not ... Freeza was pretty damn close to Goku. I would put Freeza at least 94% of Goku SSJ based on the fight they had.

Freeza(100%) 141,000,000
Goku SSJ(namek) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza(100% unseen) 155,000,000
Mirai Trunks SSJ 240,000,000
Goku SSJ(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000

[Hugo Boss]

Goku seemed to be confident when he heard from #20 that Dr. Gero didn't research about his fight on Namek. Despite that, you can see Goku is still worried about his heart condition, if that will allow him to figure out the true strength of his opponents. Even if he made significant progress during these years, the situation was clearly not on his favor, but his curiosity won that day.

Well, I support the fact that Goku took Freeza too lightly on Namek, while Mirai Trunks had the intention to kill him. Those two circunstances may suggest Goku didn't use full power against Freeza, while Trunks did (as he implied he would go full from the beggining "unlike Son Goku").

[ahill1]

Good points; but to me it makes little sense Goku hold back against Freeza since all he wanted was to fight to avenge Krillin. Also Goku did not know how to suppress his power since he was recently turned into SSJ. I do not think Goku could kill Freeza instantly as did Trunks. What are your numbers Hugo Boss?

[Sayo-chan]

We saw the facial expression of Goku that he is confident. He is not sure that will win, but is excited about fighting really strong opponents, something he would not be if it had not substantially increased his power.
The Mecha Freeza's comment suggests that he is> = SSJ Goku (namek); he has confidence in his powers, but still not so sure ... Does he hoped that Goku had increased his powers? I do not know ... If Goku is a 150 then Mecha Freeza is definitely 155-160. You are a supporter of the 120 million number for Freeza? I'm not ... Freeza was pretty damn close to Goku. I would put Freeza at least 94% of Goku SSJ based on the fight they had.

Freeza(100%) 141,000,000
Goku SSJ(namek) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza(100% unseen) 155,000,000
Mirai Trunks SSJ 240,000,000
Goku SSJ(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000

I'm in favor of the 120,000,000 number because it's official. With that said, I don't recall ever hearing an explanation for how Freeza was heavily battle damaged by the time he went 100%, but still at 100%. Someone tried to tell me that SSJ revitalized Goku, but how about Freeza?

[LightBing]

Good points; but to me it makes little sense Goku hold back against Freeza since all he wanted was to fight to avenge Krillin. Also Goku did not know how to suppress his power since he was recently turned into SSJ. I do not think Goku could kill Freeza instantly as did Trunks. What are your numbers Hugo Boss?

He avenged Kuririn by humiliating him with his clear victory, he didn't want to kill Freeza. He didn't supress his power, just didn't finish the fight. By the end he's just dodging Freeza attacks and dismissing him.

We saw the facial expression of Goku that he is confident. He is not sure that will win, but is excited about fighting really strong opponents, something he would not be if it had not substantially increased his power.
The Mecha Freeza's comment suggests that he is> = SSJ Goku (namek); he has confidence in his powers, but still not so sure ... Does he hoped that Goku had increased his powers? I do not know ... If Goku is a 150 then Mecha Freeza is definitely 155-160. You are a supporter of the 120 million number for Freeza? I'm not ... Freeza was pretty damn close to Goku. I would put Freeza at least 94% of Goku SSJ based on the fight they had.

Freeza(100%) 141,000,000
Goku SSJ(namek) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza(100% unseen) 155,000,000
Mirai Trunks SSJ 240,000,000
Goku SSJ(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000

I'm in favor of the 120,000,000 number because it's official. With that said, I don't recall ever hearing an explanation for how Freeza was heavily battle damaged by the time he went 100%, but still at 100%. Someone tried to tell me that SSJ revitalized Goku, but how about Freeza?

I think the 100% is of his damaged state, and both SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza are actually weaken by a good margin. With the official numbers just stating their maximum if they were healed. This would help explain how Freeza, thinks he might win against Goku on Earth, and that if he needs help his father might step in. He never actually fought SSJ Goku at his best.

Here's my numbers for both.(My SSJ multiplayer is x40)

Goku - 2.500.000
Kaioken x10 - 25.000.000
Kaioken x20 - 50.000.000
Super Saiyan - 100.000.000
After the Kaioken x20 kamehameha - 1.500.000
Genki Dama - 70.000.000
Damaged Super Saiyan - 60.000.000
(Goku doesn’t think he can defeat Freeza when he feels him transformed in his third form.)

Freeza First Form - 530.000
Second Form Suppressed 1 - 1.050.000
Second Form Suppressed 2 - 1.250.000
Second Form Unsuppressed - 1.550.000
Third Form - 3.000.000
True Form - 4.500.000
50% Power - 45.000.000
100% Power - 90.000.000
Damaged from the Genki Dama - 28.000.000
Damaged 70% - 39.200.000
Damaged 100% - 56.000.000

[Noah]

So... In the last DBS episode, Beerus said to a FP SSJ Goku that he would had suffered to defeat Freeza (don't know if it is a sub thing), but what the fuck this means?

Beerus said that Goku is nowhere near to defeat Freeza in his base and then that even as a FP SSJ he would have struggled more?

[Kaboom]

Are you watching bad, rushed, day-one subs? Don't watch bad, rushed, day-one subs. Unless you're talking about a different line altogether, this is what Beerus said this time around:

This time, Beerus is even harsher on base Goku: "it seems impossible for you to have defeated Freeza" (same line as before, but now with 到底)

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/630175424614498309