Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Whats the problem if the manga will have Goku using Kaio-ken x10 ? Even in the anime, the only problem with it was the 10% line, but that line was nowhere to be found in the manga. So even if Goku will use Kaio-ken x10 in the manga and will still be weaker than Beers, there would be no problem. Since no 10% and 70% line.

There's no problem in creating a plot hole. For me the problem is logic. Goku was saying he could fail and Kaioken would kill or wreck his whole body. Fine, then why after succeeding did he turn it up x10? Wouldn't that instantly kill him, if he hadn't mastered the technique? That's how we were show the Kaioken before, Goku didn't risk go much farther until he got better at it. There's progression.
Goku tell us the this is the Kaioken applied to SSJB, so we should view as the same old technique with the same limitations.

Even if we try to ignore the problems, then why didn't he go x20? A regular Kaioken would made perfect sense, x10 just seems dumb to me. It also takes away the tension of the scene, I saw Goku use the kaioken and thought "this will get interesting", he goes x10 "well I guess this is done". I think most viewers saw it this way.

What Goku said was activating the Kaio-Ken has 10% success rate. Once he did it, he can use the Kaio-Ken as long as his body can endure it, which is another matter all together. And it is obvious that the new Kaio-Ken doesn't have the same problems as the original Kaio-Ken since Goku could only used the original Kaio-Ken in very short bursts. Against Hit, once Goku turned it on, it stayed on until Goku powered down, even when he was standing still. As for why he didn't go to 20X, maybe he can't at the moment since using a Kaio-Ken X20 against Freeza nearly killed him, while he could safely used X10 as much as he wanted.

And I am not sure how it takes away from the tension of the fight since even with the Kaio-Ken X10 Goku still didn't beat Hit. So it wasn't like Goku powered up and instantly won.

[dbzfan7]

Whats the problem if the manga will have Goku using Kaio-ken x10 ? Even in the anime, the only problem with it was the 10% line, but that line was nowhere to be found in the manga. So even if Goku will use Kaio-ken x10 in the manga and will still be weaker than Beers, there would be no problem. Since no 10% and 70% line.

There's no problem in creating a plot hole. For me the problem is logic. Goku was saying he could fail and Kaioken would kill or wreck his whole body. Fine, then why after succeeding did he turn it up x10? Wouldn't that instantly kill him, if he hadn't mastered the technique? That's how we were show the Kaioken before, Goku didn't risk go much farther until he got better at it. There's progression.
Goku tell us the this is the Kaioken applied to SSJB, so we should view as the same old technique with the same limitations.

Even if we try to ignore the problems, then why didn't he go x20? A regular Kaioken would made perfect sense, x10 just seems dumb to me. It also takes away the tension of the scene, I saw Goku use the kaioken and thought "this will get interesting", he goes x10 "well I guess this is done". I think most viewers saw it this way.

I agree it's incredibly dumb. Going x10 after what he said should have killed him if just regular Kaio-Ken was life threatening. Hopefully the manga sticks with just regular Kaio-Ken.

[Noah]

I agree it's incredibly dumb. Going x10 after what he said should have killed him if just regular Kaio-Ken was life threatening. Hopefully the manga sticks with just regular Kaio-Ken.

Yes, and even with 10x he could even finish Hit!What the f***?! That freak me out!

Talking about it, how you guys have Hit anyway? Somewhat between 30% or 40% inferior to Beerus/Champa?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There's no problem in creating a plot hole. For me the problem is logic. Goku was saying he could fail and Kaioken would kill or wreck his whole body. Fine, then why after succeeding did he turn it up x10? Wouldn't that instantly kill him, if he hadn't mastered the technique?

Maybe his problem was to get Kaio-ken started, and once he has managed to use x2, he doesn't have any issue to go to higher levels, but at the same time he can't use its maximum level, which is x20. Kaio-ken is also used differently here than it was back in DBZ. In DBZ, where he used a mastered version in his base form, he was using it in bursts, while in Super, where he used an unmastered version in his SSB form, he was using it continuously.

[Khin]

Maybe his problem was to get Kaio-ken started, and once he has managed to use x2, he doesn't have any issue to go to higher levels.

Yes, that's basically what happened. Goku said if he made a single mistake when he mixed Kaio-ken with Blue, his body would go berserk and would kill him. But he was able to do it successfully. He doesn't use Kaio-ken x20 because 'x10 was already too straining that using x20 would probably have a worse effect than when he used it against Freeza.

[Chiki]

Well, the two base theory sure has become a lot stronger since I took a break from the forum!

To recap, let me summarize the 3 theories which were present before I took a break:

1. Base Goku/Vegeta are around SSG level and so is the rest of U6 apart from Botamo. This theory has the obvious problem of Piccolo being many times stronger than SS3 Gotenks when he was absolutely nothing compared to him in the Buu saga. How did he get such an insane power boost?

If Goku mentions wanting Mr. Buu in the U6 tournament, then this theory will also be destroyed like theory 3. Because it implies that U6 apart from Hit and Botamo is around SSJ2 level or below that.

2. There are two different base forms, one with SSG power and one without. This theory has the problem of not being explained during the anime. But it cleanly solves the problem of Piccolo being too strong.

3. Base Goku/Vegeta have been retconned to be SS3 level. This super weak theory, which was already bad because it relied on a retcon lol, has been completely destroyed. With the new information that Base Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>> SS3 Gotenks and Base Goku giving costumed Beerus a good fight, there is no reason to take this seriously or talk about it anymore.

Seems like the only way to go is theory 2. Hopefully we'll get more information out of Super soon enough, maybe during the next arc. We already got enough info to destroy the really horrible retcon theory.

I have to disregard the latter as less impressive regardless of the aura. I see no reason for Beerus being technically "bloodlusted" in the faux fight, while I can see Copy-Vegeta wanting to deal with Gotenks as soon as possible.

Um no, Beerus said he wanted to deal with Goku as soon as possible while he was in Monaka's costume. Goku is SSG level or slightly below, period.

[LowRyder2005]

Um no, Beerus said he wanted to deal with Goku as soon as possible while he was in Monaka's costume. Goku is SSG level or slightly below, period.

Well, Whis says that Beerus is restraining himself like never before (and apparently, he can't even fight properly because of the costume), so he may be well below the initial BOG Beerus, for all we know.

There's nothing really wrong in believing that Base Goku and Vegeta could still be simply around Enraged Vegeta for now either, to me. It fits almost perfectly with Gotenks somewhat not completely failing against a Copy-Vegeta that probably wants to kill him, unless we get an explanation on how the Copy was toying with him or how he was saving his energy against Gotenks in his fight with Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Two more things I just noticed:

-Vegeta outright tells Gotenks to fight Copy Vegeta, halfway through when he takes a break. As if Gotenks could at least keep him busy in base, rather than being turned to paste by the first hit.

-Goku senses Vegeta and Gotenks' ki, and immediately comes to the conclusion that they're having a serious fight, rather than noting that Vegeta's ki is a lot lower than it should be.

[dbzfan7]

Two more things I just noticed:

-Vegeta outright tells Gotenks to fight Copy Vegeta, both at the beginning and halfway through when he takes a break. As if Gotenks could at least keep him busy, rather than being turned to paste by the first hit.

-Goku senses Vegeta and Gotenks' ki, and immediately comes to the conclusion that they're having a serious fight, rather than noting that Vegeta's ki is a lot lower than it should be.

Interesting. I recall Vegeta immediately told Gotenks when he was going to fight Beerus to not even bother. Yet here he's fine with letting him fight the monster that stole his power without being terrified.

[Chiki]

Um no, Beerus said he wanted to deal with Goku as soon as possible while he was in Monaka's costume. Goku is SSG level or slightly below, period.

Well, Whis says that Beerus is restraining himself like never before (and apparently, he can't even fight properly because of the costume), so he may be well below the initial BOG Beerus, for all we know.

There's nothing really wrong in believing that Base Goku and Vegeta could still be simply around Enraged Vegeta for now either, to me. It fits almost perfectly with Gotenks somewhat not completely failing against a Copy-Vegeta that probably wants to kill him, unless we get an explanation on how the Copy was toying with him or how he was saving his energy against Gotenks in his fight with Goku.

He might be below BoG Beerus (70% of BoG Beerus) but that doesn't mean Goku is weaker than SSG. Given SSB and Kaioken x10 it seems that SSG has been retconned to be like 20% of 100% Beerus.

[LowRyder2005]

Um no, Beerus said he wanted to deal with Goku as soon as possible while he was in Monaka's costume. Goku is SSG level or slightly below, period.

Well, Whis says that Beerus is restraining himself like never before (and apparently, he can't even fight properly because of the costume), so he may be well below the initial BOG Beerus, for all we know.

There's nothing really wrong in believing that Base Goku and Vegeta could still be simply around Enraged Vegeta for now either, to me. It fits almost perfectly with Gotenks somewhat not completely failing against a Copy-Vegeta that probably wants to kill him, unless we get an explanation on how the Copy was toying with him or how he was saving his energy against Gotenks in his fight with Goku.

He might be below BoG Beerus (70% of BoG Beerus) but that doesn't mean Goku is weaker than SSG. Given SSB and Kaioken x10 it seems that SSG has been retconned to be like 20% of 100% Beerus.

I didn't say Goku needs to be weaker than SSG.
I was just stating that if you take that statement literally, as in "Beerus is restraining himself more than any other time we've seen him restraining", current Base Goku may be around Rageta/ SS3 Goku (combining the fight with Beerus and the episode with Copy-Vegeta) without necessarily creating contradictions.

With "initial BOG Beerus" I meant to one which fought SS3 Goku.

[Bullza]

Well, the two base theory sure has become a lot stronger since I took a break from the forum!

No it hasn't. In fact because once again it was not brought up when Goku fought Beerus in base it continues to make the theory less likely the more episodes that pass.

Also the third theory wasn't that he was SSJ3 level but SSJ3 level+. Which if he's not at Super Saiyan God level in base would still technically be true. In between SSJ3 and SSJG. Now it can be narrowed down further to say Mystic Gohan level+.

Option 1 is most likely now, if not then Option 3. Option 2 it certainly isn't.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Um no, Beerus said he wanted to deal with Goku as soon as possible while he was in Monaka's costume. Goku is SSG level or slightly below, period.

Well, Whis says that Beerus is restraining himself like never before (and apparently, he can't even fight properly because of the costume), so he may be well below the initial BOG Beerus, for all we know.

There's nothing really wrong in believing that Base Goku and Vegeta could still be simply around Enraged Vegeta for now either, to me. It fits almost perfectly with Gotenks somewhat not completely failing against a Copy-Vegeta that probably wants to kill him, unless we get an explanation on how the Copy was toying with him or how he was saving his energy against Gotenks in his fight with Goku.

He might be below BoG Beerus (70% of BoG Beerus) but that doesn't mean Goku is weaker than SSG. Given SSB and Kaioken x10 it seems that SSG has been retconned to be like 20% of 100% Beerus.

I was wondering when you were going to show back up....

[TheMikado]

^I've noticed a lot of people, myself included have had to take mental breaks after thinking about Super too hard.

[AvatarReiko]

What are the current power rankings? Haven't watched Super since the beginning of the tournament arc and haven't had I chance to catch.

[Lord Beerus]

What are the current power rankings? Haven't watched Super since the beginning of the tournament arc and haven't had I chance to catch.

- Omni King
- Omni King's Guards
- Vados
- Whis
- Beerus
- Champa
- Hit
- SSJB Goku
- SSJB Vegeta
- Golden Freeza
- SSJ Goku/Vegeta
- Final Form Frost
- SSJ Cabba
- Magetta
- Piccolo
- Base Cabba
- Assault Form Frost
- First Form Frost
- Botama

The jury is still out on Base Goku/Vegeta, as their strength continues to fluctuate in the show, but as of the most recent episode, they seem to stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

What are the current power rankings? Haven't watched Super since the beginning of the tournament arc and haven't had I chance to catch.

- Omni King
- Omni King's Guards
- Vados/Whis
- Beerus/Champa
- SSB KKx10 Goku
- Hit/SSB Goku/Vegeta
- Golden Freeza
- SS1 Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
- Magetta
- Final Form Frost
- Piccolo
- Assault Form Frost/ Base Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
- Final Form Freeza
- First Form Frost
- Botama
- Majin Boo

[LowRyder2005]

What are the current power rankings? Haven't watched Super since the beginning of the tournament arc and haven't had I chance to catch.

I agree with most of Lord Beerus' placements. Combining quotes and feats, I say:

- Omni King
- Omni King's Guards
- Vados / Whis (each states or implies to be stronger than the other)
- Beerus (he's supposed to be fitter than Champa)
- Champa
- Hit/ SSB Goku + Kaioken * 10 (again, Hit was said to be fighting under disadvantageous conditions, but the most we know is that he "might" have defeated SSB + Kaioken Goku)
- SSB Goku/ SSB Vegeta
- Golden Freeza
- SS Goku/Vegeta
- Magetta (not the best martial artist and yet, apparently, he is the only fighter who forces Super Saiyan Vegeta to get serious 'cause of his durability... it may be debated, though, if the high temperature was meant to somehow weaken Vegeta a lot or not)
- SS Cabbe (not 100% sure if he's actually stronger than Base Goku/ Base Vegeta; yes, Vegeta does say that he and Cabbe are evenly matched in Base Form, but then you have Super Saiyan Vegeta no-selling the enraged SS Cabbe's super-dramatic-earth-shaking punch to the face, suggesting that he was actually much much stronger than the fellow Saiyan. On the other hand, it feels much safer to put him above them than below)
- Base Goku/ Base Vegeta (Vegeta is apparently convinced that SS3 Gotenks could at least buy some time against himself in Base Form... Base Forms shouldn't therefore be able to fingerflick to oblivion Buu Saga characters; a Beerus who is "restraining himself like never before" is able to have an enjoyable fight against a Base Goku who, however, appears to be warming up. These should mean that the Base Forms are considerably stronger than the initial BOG characters, in theory, but not overwhelmingly so)
- Final Form Freeza (Goku says that by training, Frost may become stronger "just like Freeza did"; the true meaning behind this choice of words may be debatable, I took it as Goku suggesting that according to what he had seen he believed Freeza had trained harder than Frost)
- Final Form Frost/ Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
- Assault Form Frost/ Mr. Buu (tentative placement for Mr. Buu, who is most likely still supposed to be stronger than Piccolo and weaker than Gotenks; Goku says that he was still in the warming up phase against AF Frost, and doesn't seem in trouble against the opponent. Got a very strong impression that that we are actually supposed to believe that he turns Super Saiyan on just to incite Frost to show his true power)
- Piccolo/ First Form Frost/ Base Cabbe (Piccolo says he wanted Frost to dial back to his first form to have an equal fight; Base Cabbe probably hasn't seen any form of Frost other than the first one, and still says Frost is the better martial artist... Base Cabbe could still be Assault Form tier, though; trying to take the events from an in-universe perspective, there's little to no reason to believe that Piccolo is much stronger than usual)
- Botamo (he has the same gimmick as Magetta, basically, but his attacks are much weaker and his speed is subpar)

[Bullza]

- Omni King
- Omni King's Guards
- Vados
- Whis
- Beerus
- Champa
- Hit
- SSJB Goku
- SSJB Vegeta
- Golden Freeza
- SSJ Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
- Magetta
- Final Form Frost
- Base Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
- Buu
- Piccolo

[Khin]

What are the current power rankings? Haven't watched Super since the beginning of the tournament arc and haven't had I chance to catch.

• Zeno
• Zeno's Attendants/ Guards
• Whis | Vados (Going by the manga, Vados is slighly strong than Whis)
• Beerus | Champa (Champa was stated to be weaker than Beerus, but i don't think he is that much weaker.)
• SSB + Kaio-ken x10 Goku | Hit [Full Power] (It was stated that Hit can kill Goku had he went all out in their match.)
• Hit [0.5 seconds Time Skip] (Destroyed SSB Goku)
• SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta | Golden Freeza (They are all equals imo.)
• Hit [0.1 second Time Skip] (Gets destroyed by SSB Goku)
• SS Goku | SS Vegeta | Magetta (Magetta is hard to put, but i'd put him in the same tier as SS Goku and SS Vegeta, due to how he was able to give Vegeta a hard time.)
• SS Cabba (SS Vegeta easily tanked Cabba's punch in the forehead, probably due to how injured Cabba is when he turned Super Saiyan.)
• Final Form Frost (Gets destroyed by SS Goku)
• Assault Form Frost | Base Goku | Base Vegeta | Base Cabba (I think they are all equals, though Frost is probably slighly stronger than the three.)
  
• Piccolo | First Form Frost
• Botamo