Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:08 am

Shreyas_Singh wrote:It's been 72 episodes now and Super's schedule hasn't really improved much. We're still getting the rushed "patchwork" episodes. Does anyone have ANY idea when it will reach the "decent schedule phase" ? I mean there are some really talented animators on the show and it really pains me to see that they can't display their full potential , like this show has a lot of plot contrivances and continuity issues but its still engaging to watch because of the characters . I just want it finally have consistently decent animation so that we can enjoy the fights without worrying :(
Super will never have a decent schedule. It has been said many times already, but I'll say it again the lack of pre-production hurt it so bad that it still hasn't recovered and I highly doubt it ever will. Hell, Super doesn't even have a series composer and there's 3 series directors already. That's a clear sign of how fucked up the series is.

Super just came out of nowhere. Thanks to the inexperienced production committee and their awful management. At best, we'll get one good episode followed by a couple of average ones and then followed by a couple of bad ones and so on.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Shreyas_Singh » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:19 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Shreyas_Singh wrote:It's been 72 episodes now and Super's schedule hasn't really improved much. We're still getting the rushed "patchwork" episodes. Does anyone have ANY idea when it will reach the "decent schedule phase" ? I mean there are some really talented animators on the show and it really pains me to see that they can't display their full potential , like this show has a lot of plot contrivances and continuity issues but its still engaging to watch because of the characters . I just want it finally have consistently decent animation so that we can enjoy the fights without worrying :(
Super will never have a decent schedule. It has been said many times already, but I'll say it again the lack of pre-production hurt it so bad that it still hasn't recovered and I highly doubt it ever will. Hell, Super doesn't even have a series composer and there's 3 series directors already. That's a clear sign of how fucked up the series is.

Super just came out of nowhere. Thanks to the inexperienced production committee and their awful management. At best, we'll get one good episode followed by a couple of average ones and then followed by a couple of bad ones and so on.
I see, thanks for replying guys,also sorry about that I have come this thread recently so I'm a complete noob. In that case I wish to see atleast one episode with top tier animation in the finale of this upcoming arc because while we've had some decent animation in chunks,even Shida and Otsuka were rushed in #66 . [optimism intensifies]
Feel free to correct me if I say something wrong.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by dhaval_dongre » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:02 am

72:
Had corrections from Tsuji, Karasawa, uncredited Shimanuki and a few from Higashide too. Tate's work was rushed and raw. It was interesting to see Karasawa do only corrections. Probably he is focusing on the next arc. Tate's work wasn't great or on his usual level, but it was still decent at the least, but his artwork was rough in a few places. Next week is off and the rest of the 4 episodes are SoL filler episodes. So I don't think Karasawa will popup again. I am pretty sure we will see Ishikawa, Kitano and Yashima again in that time period again. Manabe might popup but I want to see him directly in the Survival arc. Never really thought that Toei will do 11 episodes of filler after the FT arc. It will definitely help, but not sure to what degree. Guess will have to see how the first chunk of the next arc turns out.

We saw Erisa Tomita and Fukushima Toyoaki for the first time. Didn't see any unsual shots. Probably because of Tsuji's corrections I guess.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by kinisking » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:38 am

How do we know super doesn't have a series composer? Didn't king Ryu say he was during the Champa arc? Just because they made him delete the tweet doesn't mean be suddenly stopped being the series composer for that arc. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the series composer last arc and tomioka( might be butchering this guy's name) was the series composer for the FT arc.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:42 am

kinisking wrote:How do we know super doesn't have a series composer? Didn't king Ryu say he was during the Champa arc? Just because they made him delete the tweet doesn't mean be suddenly stopped being the series composer for that arc. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the series composer last arc and tomioka( might be butchering this guy's name) was the series composer for the FT arc.
King Ryuu was, but he isn't credited now, is he? Now, why would that happen? Why not credit the series composer? I'm not aware of any series that doesn't credit it's series composer and keeps it hidden. Maybe, someone more knowledgeable about this stuff can correct me, but everything points towards Super having no fixed person in charge of series composition.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by HeroR » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:08 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
kinisking wrote:How do we know super doesn't have a series composer? Didn't king Ryu say he was during the Champa arc? Just because they made him delete the tweet doesn't mean be suddenly stopped being the series composer for that arc. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the series composer last arc and tomioka( might be butchering this guy's name) was the series composer for the FT arc.
King Ryuu was, but he isn't credited now, is he? Now, why would that happen? Why not credit the series composer? I'm not aware of any series that doesn't credit it's series composer and keeps it hidden. Maybe, someone more knowledgeable about this stuff can correct me, but everything points towards Super having no fixed person in charge of series composition.
It doesn't seem to have an official composer, but one story writer did almost the entire Future Trunks Saga, much like how King Ryu wrote the majority of the Champa Saga.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Psykomatik » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:30 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
kinisking wrote:How do we know super doesn't have a series composer? Didn't king Ryu say he was during the Champa arc? Just because they made him delete the tweet doesn't mean be suddenly stopped being the series composer for that arc. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the series composer last arc and tomioka( might be butchering this guy's name) was the series composer for the FT arc.
King Ryuu was, but he isn't credited now, is he? Now, why would that happen? Why not credit the series composer? I'm not aware of any series that doesn't credit it's series composer and keeps it hidden. Maybe, someone more knowledgeable about this stuff can correct me, but everything points towards Super having no fixed person in charge of series composition.
Everything points towards the exact opposite. It seems obvious to me that King Ryu was series composer for the Champa arc and Atsuhiro Tomioka for the Trunks arc...

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:52 am

Psykomatik wrote: Everything points towards the exact opposite. It seems obvious to me that King Ryu was series composer for the Champa arc and Atsuhiro Tomioka for the Trunks arc...
Believe what you want. The fact is Super doesn't credit the person whether it was King Ryuu or Tomioka Atsuhiro as series composer. Toriyama Akira is credited instead and I think we all know that he isn't involved besides providing outlines in the anime production at all.

Unless シリーズ構成(series composition) credit is provided to anyone else other than Toriyama it's more than likely that Super has no one incharge. It makes perfect sense if you look at it. Scripting is a pre-production thing and Super has little to no pre-production. So, it falls at the shoulders of the series director and producer who hires script writers to write scripts as fast as possible based off of Toriyama's outline.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Universe Survival arc is scripted majorly by someone else like how the Trunks arc was by Tomioka who never had written any scripts before for Super and was hired by Hatano.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:07 am

I watched a little late since I had tonsillitis this weekend, but I was pretty disappointed. I didn't expect gold from Tate, I only wanted the action sequences to have his usual flow. Oh well, he has been stretched thin these past few weeks. Karasawa was there I guess. Also, pretty sure I saw some Shimanuki, but only in a few mundane shots. Naturally, I'll be checking in to Ajay's video to make sure I didn't miss anything.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:38 am

Shreyas_Singh wrote:It's been 72 episodes now and Super's schedule hasn't really improved much. We're still getting the rushed "patchwork" episodes. Does anyone have ANY idea when it will reach the "decent schedule phase" ? I mean there are some really talented animators on the show and it really pains me to see that they can't display their full potential , like this show has a lot of plot contrivances and continuity issues but its still engaging to watch because of the characters . I just want it finally have consistently decent animation so that we can enjoy the fights without worrying :(
Things improved pretty dramatically from F to Champa, and then again improved from Champa to Trunks, so things have steadily been improving from arc to arc. These inbeween episodes have been particularly interesting, especially with the seer volume of them, which is why the theory that these episodes exist solely to improve the schedule for the next arc. We'll find out soon enough.
Saikyo no Senshi wrote: Super will never have a decent schedule. It has been said many times already, but I'll say it again the lack of pre-production hurt it so bad that it still hasn't recovered and I highly doubt it ever will. Hell, Super doesn't even have a series composer and there's 3 series directors already. That's a clear sign of how fucked up the series is.
I think that's a bit too big of an assumption, the schedule has clearly been improving over time and unless something horrible happens it should get to an decent place eventually since the show is unlikely to end any time soon. These 10 weeks of filler are hopefully to bring the biggest improvement to the production that we have seen, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Also since we know we've had at least one series composer that was never credited as having the role they probably just don't credit them because they want to pimp out Toriyama's involvement in the show as a selling point.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:01 am

ArchedThunder wrote:These 10 weeks of filler are hopefully to bring the biggest improvement to the production that we have seen, but we'll just have to wait and see..
Recently been watching one punch man, if Dragonball had the animation of those fights, the godly battles would really come alive, one punch man somehow really captures the intensity of fights, maybe Dragonball will come close to it one day
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by iAnimationLover_ » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:26 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:These 10 weeks of filler are hopefully to bring the biggest improvement to the production that we have seen, but we'll just have to wait and see..
Recently been watching one punch man, if Dragonball had the animation of those fights, the godly battles would really come alive, one punch man somehow really captures the intensity of fights, maybe Dragonball will come close to it one day

One punch man had an entire year of pre production though xD And Katsoyoshi Nakatsuru was a KA on episode 1!

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Gashif Aldi » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:33 am

iAnimationLover_ wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:These 10 weeks of filler are hopefully to bring the biggest improvement to the production that we have seen, but we'll just have to wait and see..
Recently been watching one punch man, if Dragonball had the animation of those fights, the godly battles would really come alive, one punch man somehow really captures the intensity of fights, maybe Dragonball will come close to it one day

One punch man had an entire year of pre production though xD And Katsoyoshi Nakatsuru was a KA on episode 1!
Wait what?! Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru? Does anyone know why he's not working on Modern Dragon Ball material (except for Yo! Son Goku and his friends...)? I heard that he is a very talented guy and had worked on DBZ in the 90s.
I mean he's at TOEI right? It looked like DBS is really missing a bunch of animators and time. Seriously, the management team are idiots.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:35 am

Gashif Aldi wrote:
Wait what?! Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru? Does anyone know why he's not working on Modern Dragon Ball material (except for Yo! Son Goku and his friends...)? I heard that he is a very talented guy and had worked on DBZ in the 90s.
I mean he's at TOEI right? It looked like DBS is really missing a bunch of animators and time. Seriously, the management team are idiots.
He's not a Toei animator and Toei can't force their animators work on Super.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Ajay » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:39 am

Gashif Aldi wrote:Wait what?! Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru? Does anyone know why he's not working on Modern Dragon Ball material (except for Yo! Son Goku and his friends...)? I heard that he is a very talented guy and had worked on DBZ in the 90s.
I mean he's at TOEI right? It looked like DBS is really missing a bunch of animators and time. Seriously, the management team are idiots.
He worked on Resurrection 'F' and episode 1 of Super.

He worked on Pop in Q, as did Tate, but the time frame on that film is totally unknown. Could have even been before Super.

As for better animators, well, you can't conjure up good animators from thin air, and Super isn't the most desirable project to work on.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by kinisking » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:49 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Psykomatik wrote: Everything points towards the exact opposite. It seems obvious to me that King Ryu was series composer for the Champa arc and Atsuhiro Tomioka for the Trunks arc...
Believe what you want. The fact is Super doesn't credit the person whether it was King Ryuu or Tomioka Atsuhiro as series composer. Toriyama Akira is credited instead and I think we all know that he isn't involved besides providing outlines in the anime production at all.

Unless シリーズ構成(series composition) credit is provided to anyone else other than Toriyama it's more than likely that Super has no one incharge. It makes perfect sense if you look at it. Scripting is a pre-production thing and Super has little to no pre-production. So, it falls at the shoulders of the series director and producer who hires script writers to write scripts as fast as possible based off of Toriyama's outline.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Universe Survival arc is scripted majorly by someone else like how the Trunks arc was by Tomioka who never had written any scripts before for Super and was hired by Hatano.
Maybe they want to publicly list Toriyama as the series composer to get people's attention? Doesn't mean they don't have a series composer behind the scenes. Especially when a person already tried announcing he was one. It's more likely thst they wanted to keep it a secret than it is that they fired him from the job.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:50 pm

Ajay wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:I'm also curious about people that don't like Yamamuro, how do you feel about Tsuji? Better or worse than him so far?
I feel similarly about them both. Neither of them really draw anywhere close to what I want Dragon Ball to look like, nor do they really do any noteworthy animation that I've seen. That said, in supervisor roles, they're very good at hiding anything that deviates from the character sheets. That works well for shows like Super where most deviations aren't for the best, but their corrections are severe, which means the best idiosyncrasies of good animators are lost. It's why I like Manabe so much -- he corrects well, but lets the animators underneath still have a voice. Either way, I'm fine with both on Super.

If Tsuji were to take over, I'd be sad, as it wouldn't fix any of the issues I have with Yamamuro's designs or his approach. I've grown warmer and warmer to Karasawa as his style has developed recently, and I honestly wouldn't mind if he were to take the reigns, actually. He dropped a lot of Yamamuro traits pretty heavily recently -- definitely for the better. If he ever decides to draw noses properly, I think I might find myself in heaven!
Interesting. I don't have any problems with Yamamuro and actually love his work, but someone will have to take his spot sooner of later when he leaves.
I also think Karasawa would be a great choice.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by iAnimationLover_ » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:04 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Ajay wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:I'm also curious about people that don't like Yamamuro, how do you feel about Tsuji? Better or worse than him so far?
I feel similarly about them both. Neither of them really draw anywhere close to what I want Dragon Ball to look like, nor do they really do any noteworthy animation that I've seen. That said, in supervisor roles, they're very good at hiding anything that deviates from the character sheets. That works well for shows like Super where most deviations aren't for the best, but their corrections are severe, which means the best idiosyncrasies of good animators are lost. It's why I like Manabe so much -- he corrects well, but lets the animators underneath still have a voice. Either way, I'm fine with both on Super.

If Tsuji were to take over, I'd be sad, as it wouldn't fix any of the issues I have with Yamamuro's designs or his approach. I've grown warmer and warmer to Karasawa as his style has developed recently, and I honestly wouldn't mind if he were to take the reigns, actually. He dropped a lot of Yamamuro traits pretty heavily recently -- definitely for the better. If he ever decides to draw noses properly, I think I might find myself in heaven!
Interesting. I don't have any problems with Yamamuro and actually love his work, but someone will have to take his spot sooner of later when he leaves.
I also think Karasawa would be a great choice.

I would want Shida or Nakatsuru

I especially want to see Nakatsuru's take on supers character designs xD But i guess I'm asking for too much .-.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:13 pm

I honestly wouldn't mind these non-consequential episodes looking as rough as they are as long as the major arcs have a consistent quality. I have a major worry that Universe Survival arc will befall the same fate as the Champa arc with lackluster kick-off fights. That scenario would be all more disheartening given that, despite the show's lack of any kind real pre-production, its managed to still pull out some damn good looking episodes and the episode as whole have been generally getting better in terms of their average quality, despite being rushed out of the gate like EP72 was. I'm not really asking for the Universe Survival arc to look great from start to finish, but I'd hope with this extended stretch of filler episode, the animators have enough time to get their shit together for the episodes that really matter.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 72

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:05 pm

As far as we know, Super episodes tend to be animated in 6-10 weeks, but I'm willing to bet that the episodes made on the lower end of that scale has more to do with Super's ability to get staff than anything. I'd like to hear some people's input on what I'm thinking the possible outcomes of the 10 weeks of filler will be.

Absolute best case (and very unlikely) scenario of this 10 weeks of filler is bringing the production to the point were some episodes could have upwards of 20 weeks for animation, similar to Pokemon, but again that is absolute best case scenario and is VERY unlikely. In the unlikely event that this is what happens it would be much easier for Super to get staff, especially if Hatano Morio is still on the show. Nobody should expect this large of an improvement, this is pie the the sky stuff, but not necessarily completely impossible.

Middle of the road scenario, which I think is relatively likely would be this improving the schedule by about 5 weeks, giving Super upwards of 15-ish weeks for some episodes. I base this on there being 5 weeks between Champa and Trunks, where as we are getting 10 weeks here, giving us an extra 5 weeks between arcs (not exactly the most scientific conclusion since production isn't a straight line). With this episodes would probably be made in 10-15 weeks, with regular episodes on the lower end and that being a pretty average turn around time for an anime episode, and the large episodes being on the upper end and that being an above average turn around(and pretty in line with its piers). This outcome would also greatly improve Super's ability to grab staff, not as well as the absolute best case scenario obviously, but it would still make the show much more attractive to work on. While I think this outcome is fairly likely I also don't think anyone should expect this one either, I'd say there is still a sizable chance this is not the outcome so to avoid disappointment it'd probably be better to hope for this, but expect worse.

Lower end scenario, the production is improved by 2-3 weeks, with episodes typically being made in 8-12 weeks, potentially 13 for a giant episode. This would make Super's production only average, but still far more workable than previously and would make it easier to grab staff, but not nearly as easily as the middle of the road scenario. While 8-12 weeks would only be a small improvement it would still have a large effect on Super and would likely be enough for the majority of episodes to be supervised by one person. I'm not really basing this off of anything, but I would say that this and the middle of the road scenario probably have similar chances of being the outcome, but to avoid disappointment I think this should be the expectation.

Almost worst case scenario, no improvements are made to the production and the quality of the arc will be pretty much identical to the Trunks arc. I see this as being more likely than the absolute best case scenario, but much less likely than the middle and lower end scenarios, but still likely enough that we should be prepared for it.

Absolute worst case holy shit everything is on fire scenario, the quality of these filler episodes is what we will get for the next arc. I'd like to think this scenario is about as likely as the best case scenario.

TLDR; I think expecting as little as 2 weeks of improvement to the schedule, hoping for upwards of 5, and being prepared for no improvements is the most logical way to look at the effect of 10 weeks of filler.

Thoughts?

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