Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:27 pm

The problem with Vegeta and Piccolo is that the latter must be much stronger than Vegeta before he has the SSJ power up. We can consider Piccolo surpassed by SSJ Vegeta, but not by much that he wouldn't consider fighting with Dr. Gero (and his training would have to be much more intense than Vegeta's). I'll consider both around this level in the Androids saga:

Vegeta - 180.000.000, stronger than Goku's power output as a SSJ in Namek.
Piccolo - 120.000.000, weaker than Goku and Vegeta, but enough to deal with Freeza.

Trunks' arrival:

Vegeta - 2.400.000, still weaker than Goku when both are at base (without his own SSJ).
Piccolo - 6.000.000, stronger than Vegeta, but not by much that he wouldn't consider a fight.

Freeza/Namek:

Vegeta - 2.000.000
Piccolo - 1.200.000

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:40 pm

Vegeta (trunks arc): 2,600,000
Piccolo (trunks arc): 2,400,000

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:44 pm

Zombie wrote:Vegeta (trunks arc): 2,600,000
Piccolo (trunks arc): 2,400,000

I'm actually okay with switching those two. Piccolo seems more than confident in taking on Vegeta, and he seems to be the one who is in charge at that point.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:50 pm

^ Status quo, though.

Vegeta had no qualms with challenging Piccolo either. I think they're close enough to the point it can go either way, but still a power advantage in favor of Vegeta.

Like a 100 vs. 96 type gap.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:00 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:^ Status quo, though.

Vegeta had no qualms with challenging Piccolo either. I think they're close enough to the point it can go either way, but still a power advantage in favor of Vegeta.

Like a 100 vs. 96 type gap.

There's also Goku asking if Piccolo beat Freeza first, before seeing if it was Vegeta. I agree that it could go either way, but what evidence there is slightly hinges towards Piccolo.

supercat · Post by **supercat** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:24 pm

Well even prior to his fusion with Kami, Piccolo was substantially stronger than any of the Base Saiyans in the Android arc, so it's quite plausible that it could have gone either way during Trunks' arrival.

Even if he opted out of reuniting with his other half, he would have remained leagues above any base Saiyan, considering how none of them were even remotely close to Final Form Frieza 100% by the events of BoG. This is of course, barring Base Goku / Vegeta after they've absorbed their SSG powers.

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:04 pm

Here's an evolution since the Freeza saga, using someone else's format:

Goku:
- versus Freeza = 3.000.000
- versus Androids = 3.600.000 -- 20% more powerful
- SSJ = 180.000.000 -- 50 times more powerful

Note: He couldn't output the power he had against Freeza due to his disease, but he trained, so I gave him a modest increase.

Vegeta:
- versus Freeza = 2.400.000
- Trunks' arrival = 3.000.000 -- 25% more powerful
- versus Androids = 3.600.000 -- 20% more powerful
- SSJ = 180.000.000 -- 50 times more powerful

Note: He is still 20 times weaker than Freeza to be considered a contestant in terms of power, but I gave him an increase as big as Goku's.

Piccolo:
- versus Freeza = 1.200.000
- Trunks' arrival = 6.000.000 -- 5 times more powerful
- versus Androids = 120.000.000 -- 20 times more powerful

Note: He obviously suppresses his power, and was not far behind a Super Saiyan, but definitely above a base Saiyan.

Gohan:
- versus Freeza = 280.000
- versus Androids = 1.400.000 -- 5 times more powerful
- first time SSJ = 2.800.000 -- 2 times more powerful

Note: I didn't consider a power up between Freeza and the Androids, but you could split that 5 into smaller increases.

Future Trunks:
- Trunks' arrival = 2.400.000
- versus Androids = 3.000.000 -- 25% more powerful
- SSJ = 150.000.000

Note: His Super Saiyan power at arrival matches Freeza's full power, hence dispatching of him very quickly, while being weaker than Goku.

--

I think these numbers are perfect, because while Trunks wasn't as powerful as Goku, he was catching up to Future Gohan and managed to beat Freeza before his power up, as a SSJ. The Future Androids allowed themselves to be matched at 50%, so twice than 120.000.000 is a potential number for Piccolo after he fuses with Kami, since Android 17 is the same. When facing SSJ Vegeta, they may have used only 75% of their power (which is 180.000.000) to give him false hopes.

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Let me try:

Gohan:
~Namek 500,000
~Trunks arrival 500,000
~Versus Androids 9,000,000

Piccolo
~Namek 1,500,000
~Trunks arrival 4,200,000
~Versus Androids 500,000,000

Goku
~Namek 3,000,000
---------SSJ 150,000,000
~Trunks arrival 6,000,000
------------------SSJ 300,000,000
~Versus Androids 12,000,000
---------------------SSJ 600,000,000

Vegeta
~Namek 2,400,000
~Trunks arrival 4,500,000
~Versus Androids 12,500,000
---------------------SSJ 625,000,000

supercat · Post by **supercat** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:29 pm

Truhan wrote:Here's an evolution since the Freeza saga, using someone else's format:

Goku:
- versus Freeza = 3.000.000
- versus Androids = 3.600.000 -- 20% more powerful
- SSJ = 180.000.000 -- 50 times more powerful

Note: He couldn't output the power he had against Freeza due to his disease, but he trained, so I gave him a modest increase.

Vegeta:
- versus Freeza = 2.400.000
- Trunks' arrival = 3.000.000 -- 25% more powerful
- versus Androids = 3.600.000 -- 20% more powerful
- SSJ = 180.000.000 -- 50 times more powerful

Note: He is still 20 times weaker than Freeza to be considered a contestant in terms of power, but I gave him an increase as big as Goku's.

Piccolo:
- versus Freeza = 1.200.000
- Trunks' arrival = 6.000.000 -- 5 times more powerful
- versus Androids = 120.000.000 -- 20 times more powerful

Note: He obviously suppresses his power, and was not far behind a Super Saiyan, but definitely above a base Saiyan.

Gohan:
- versus Freeza = 280.000
- versus Androids = 1.400.000 -- 5 times more powerful
- first time SSJ = 2.800.000 -- 2 times more powerful

Note: I didn't consider a power up between Freeza and the Androids, but you could split that 5 into smaller increases.

Future Trunks:
- Trunks' arrival = 2.400.000
- versus Androids = 3.000.000 -- 25% more powerful
- SSJ = 150.000.000

Note: His Super Saiyan power at arrival matches Freeza's full power, hence dispatching of him very quickly, while being weaker than Goku.

That looks pretty solid in my opinion. The only thing that I would disagree on is Future Trunks' placement. I've personally always had him marginally stronger than SSJ Goku (Namek), somewhere in the realm of ~170,000,000 - 175,000,000 as a Super Saiyan, sounded about right to me.

Piccolo seems a bit high, but I suppose it makes sense, given how tremendously he progressed during his three years of training. Anywhere in the neighborhood of ~2,800,000 (on the exceptionally low end) and upwards of ~5,000,000 (on the high end of the spectrum), seems pretty reasonable, in my opinion.

If BoG is thrown into the mix, I'd have the following:

Base Goku - 60,000,000 - 80,000,000 (he must have been notably weaker than Frieza to elicit a remark from Beerus)
Base Vegeta - 55,000,000 - 75,000,000
Base Trunks - 25,000,000
Base Goten - 24,000,000
Piccolo - 1,800,000,000

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:45 pm

Future Trunks (trunks arc) has to be way stronger than Goku (nemek). Future Trunks was confident in taking Mecha Frieza in seconds, which was at least on par with Goku SSJ (namek).

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:47 pm

ahill1 wrote:Future Trunks (trunks arc) has to be way stronger than Goku (nemek). Future Trunks was confident in taking Mecha Freeza in seconds, which was at least on par with Goku SSJ (namek).

Future Trunks took on Freeza, who was using 50% of his power (we have to assume he didn't power up), so that makes SSJ Trunks 2 times stronger than him at 120.000.000. We can increase the numbers, but that would only bloat the multipliers, in my opinion. Besides, Trunks was catching up to Future Gohan before he died, who wasn't as strong as Goku around the Future Androids' activation.

EDIT: I just checked Herms' translations, and he powered up since his last defeat (but there's nothing saying that he was using 100% of his power), but it shouldn't be by much. It's just a matter of increasing the others as well.

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:07 pm

Yes I assume Mecha Frieza was only using half of his power. Even so Trunks told Freeza go to maximum power, and if there's one thing Future Trunks does not do is underestimate your opponent. So he had to be 100% confident of his victory. Akira Toriyama is keen to show that Freeza was nothing more than fodder that time. Something like this:

Goku SSJ ( namek ) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza ( 100% ) 160,000,000
Future Trunks ( mecha freeza saga ) 240,000,000
Goku SSJ ( mecha freeza saga ) 300,000,000

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:12 pm

ahill1 wrote:Yes I assume Mecha Freeza was only using half of his power. Even so Trunks told Freeza go to maximum power, and if there's one thing Future Trunks does not do is underestimate your opponent. So he had to be 100% confident of his victory. Akira Toriyama is keen to show that Freeza was nothing more than fodder that time. Something like this:

Goku SSJ ( namek ) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza ( 100% ) 160,000,000
Future Trunks ( mecha freeza saga ) 240,000,000
Goku SSJ ( mecha freeza saga ) 300,000,000

What about Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan? You'd have to bloat their increase to keep up. Vegeta had just achieved a reasonable level to become a SSJ with my numbers (3.000.000), even if he didn't transform, so that could work as Goku imagining that he did. Piccolo would only be marginally stronger, since he had been training "more or less..." every day. Gohan... Well, he had much room to improve.

Here's a hint: Freeza could have increased his power by 1.25 since Namek, which doesn't deny that he was indeed powered up with his Mech design, but only to 75.000.000, which could have been doubled to match Goku's. However, we didn't see Freeza bulk up like he had before, so I prefer to think that he was not Full Power, despite Trunks' taunt.

ahill1 · Post by **ahill1** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Yeah. Piccolo was the most increased their power; Piccolo (potential)> Saiyans base (potential) - all this because of their union with Nail. I do not think Gohan has increased its power at that time, his mother must have forced him to study.

Arrival of Trunks

Gohan 500,000

Piccolo 4,200,000

Vegeta 4,500,000

Future Trunks 4,800,000
~ SSJ 240,000,000

Goku 6,000,000
~ SSJ 300,000,000

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:10 pm

Just finished my battle powers of the DBZ/Kai portion of the manga, plus Jaco/JSAT/BoG/FnF.

Spoiler:

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:19 pm

I personally think your gap between SBG Goku and SSGSS Goku is way too small. An exhausted and wrecked Golden Freeza stated that there was no way Vegeta could defeat him and Vegeta responded by going SSGSS instead of just beating him up without transforming. That implies that somebody who is most likely way below SSGSS Goku is still >> SBG Vegeta in my opinion. You could argue Vegeta was being excessive, but I personally think it'd be more impressive if he stomped Freeza in base showing how powerful he is without transforming.

Overall, it's a good list. I obviously disagree with things like #20 post <<< #19 post or pre-Kami Piccolo <<<< Freeza, but we just don't agree so I don't see the point in debating. I am however curious as to why you have Tenshinhan stronger than Krillin during the Freeza fight.

EDIT: I also personally disagree with the super tight gaps between the Boo arc Saiyans.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:59 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I personally think your gap between SBG Goku and SSGSS Goku is way too small. An exhausted and wrecked Golden Freeza stated that there was no way Vegeta could defeat him and Vegeta responded by going SSGSS instead of just beating him up without transforming. That implies that somebody who is most likely way below SSGSS Goku is still >> SBG Vegeta in my opinion. You could argue Vegeta was being excessive, but I personally think it'd be more impressive if he stomped Freeza in base showing how powerful he is without transforming.

I wanted to place Golden Freeza, SSGSS Goku, and SSGSS Vegeta as far away as possible from Beerus, since the 2 SSGSS together they can only rival him, not beat him, and Freeza doesn't stand a chance. I don't think Freeza used much logic when he said that Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat him, I think he would be able to, but not extremely easily. SbG Vegeta could even deflect a ki blast without showing any effort, and without it even being directed to him, and he could even make it go accurately to wherever he wanted (at Sorbet). Vegeta also wanted badly to show him his SS form. He could have reverted to his base after showing it to him to say him "ha, you are so weak I don't even need SS", but he could have done the same when Freeza reverted to his true form, yet he didn't. Which probably means that Vegeta wanted to kick Freeza's ass & kill him as a Super Saiyan.

Overall, it's a good list. I obviously disagree with things like #20 post <<< #19 post or pre-Kami Piccolo <<<< Freeza, but we just don't agree so I don't see the point in debating.

I know your opinion about Piccolo, but why do you disagree about #19 & #20? #19 absorbed a Kamehameha from a weakened SS Goku and energy directly from SS Vegeta, enough for him to need a senzu, but still be strong enough to rip him in pieces with his strength. #20 had only absorbed all of the energy from Yamcha, a ki blast from SS Vegeta, and some energy from a supressed Piccolo. Even though #20 starts stronger, #19's absorbtions sound greater enough to make that irrelevant. Unless there is evidence that suggest otherwise that I missed?

I am however curious as to why you have Tenshinhan stronger than Krillin during the Freeza fight.

I took the filler fight vs the Ginyu Tokusentai on Kaio's planet into account, since that's all we have to meassure their power. Piccolo made huge gains, so I see no reason to assume that they didn't. I placed Tenshinhan at this level because he split in two during the fight, and defeated a member of the Ginyu Tokusentai with each body.

I also personally disagree with the super tight gaps between the Boo arc Saiyans.

Is there any specific reason, or it's just your opinion?

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:16 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I wanted to place Golden Freeza, SSGSS Goku, and SSGSS Vegeta as far away as possible from Beerus, since the 2 SSGSS together they can only rival him, not beat him, and Freeza doesn't stand a chance. I don't think Freeza used much logic when he said that Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat him, I think he would be able to, but not extremely easily. SbG Vegeta could even deflect a ki blast without showing any effort, and without it even being directed to him, and he could even make it go accurately to wherever he wanted (at Sorbet). Vegeta also wanted badly to show him his SS form. He could have reverted to his base after showing it to him to say him "ha, you are so weak I don't even need SS", but he could have done the same when Freeza reverted to his true form, yet he didn't. Which probably means that Vegeta wanted to kick Freeza's ass & kill him as a Super Saiyan.

That is valid reasoning, I concede.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I know your opinion about Piccolo, but why do you disagree about #19 & #20? #19 absorbed a Kamehameha from a weakened SS Goku and energy directly from SS Vegeta, enough for him to need a senzu, but still be strong enough to rip him in pieces with his strength. #20 had only absorbed all of the energy from Yamcha, a ki blast from SS Vegeta, and some energy from a supressed Piccolo. Even though #20 starts stronger, #19's absorbtions sound greater enough to make that irrelevant. Unless there is evidence that suggest otherwise that I missed?

Well, #20 was questionable as being as strong as expected (strong enough to whoop SS Trunks from 3 years back), while #19 wasn't even considered. That implies something like: Artificial Humans (expected) >= Android #20 post >/>> Android #19 post IMO. There was also Android #20 being faster than Vegeta thought which could place him not miles below Vegeta (IMO).

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I took the filler fight vs the Ginyu Tokusentai on Kaio's planet into account, since that's all we have to meassure their power. Piccolo made huge gains, so I see no reason to assume that they didn't. I placed Tenshinhan at this level because he split in two during the fight, and defeated a member of the Ginyu Tokusentai with each body.

I also agree with the filler, I just personally feel if Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan for the rest of the series, he might as well be here also. I usually tend to place Krillin around 320,000 personally, based on Vegeta's comment about his power.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Is there any specific reason, or it's just your opinion?

It's more my opinion I suppose. There is Vegeta saying Gohan is trash which, and Vegeta having to be brought fa~ar beyond his natural limits just to match Goku.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:35 pm

If you're taking Super into account, the base saiyans are probably too strong. Speaking of which, your gaps between the base saiyans in the Buu arc are ridiculously tiny. Vegeta said that the gap between him and Goku hadn't really changed since Cell, and he had to have his dormant power brought out beyond its limits just to match Goku in the same form. You also have Dabra as stronger than pre-Majin Vegeta, even though Vegeta said he could end Dabra, and Dabra seemed somewhat inferior in strength to even SS2 Gohan.

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:43 pm

I don't actually agree that Vegeta had to be brought very far from his limits, but enough to match Goku with a Majin power up, which has nothing to do with what his body was capable of transforming into. Say, imagine that 30.000k was the power level to consider a SSJ3 transformation: due to Vegeta's lower level, he wasn't able to transform further, but the Majin power up brought him beyond his natural limits to match Goku, who could transform.

During the Cell games, I believe Vegeta was about equal to Goku at base, but since he didn't rest to achieve that power, he wasn't able to unleash his Full Power with a mastered SSJ state. That's what made the difference between him and Goku, the fact that the latter could tap onto a higher multiplier (i.e. full power) and reach a level that was out of reach for Vegeta. Putting these in numbers:

Goku:
- at Base = 12.000.000
- SSJ (FP) = 960.000.000 -- 80 times the increase (arbitrary 1.6 times the SSJ multiplier)

Vegeta:
- at Base = 11.400.000
- SSJ (G2) = 684.000.000 -- 60 times the increase (arbitrary 1.2 times the SSJ multiplier)

- at Base = 12.000.000 -- / 0.95 from before
- SSJ = 600.000.000 -- 50 times the increase at the Cell games

We could infer that mastering SSJ and unleashing its full power was better in the long run, because both had similar power levels at base. Vegeta didn't rest in wanting to become stronger, and so he screwed himself, but if he powered up to Grade 2, things would have been different for the Cell Jr (perhaps).

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