Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Chiki wrote:
The anime has shitty writing when it comes to battle powers thanks to Toei, it always had. Seeing how things went in Z filler & GT, I don't see any reason to sit and find reason to ridiculous power-ups through training, they just happen.
But it's not Z filler or GT. Toriyama gives the outline for every arc.
I'm pretty sure all Toriyama provides is just basic notes like "Character X defeats Character Y", "Character A, B and C meet Characters E, F and G", "Character H fights Character I in a long and epic fight" or "Group R travel to Location S and talk to Characters N and M". Vague outlines for the plot in that kind of fashion and then Toei fill in all the blanks.
We can't say for certain, I think it's much more detailed than that.

It can't just be a coincidence that Goku and Vegeta only go SSJ for weaker guys like Final Form Frost, Magetta and Cabba but not Final Form Frieza, Hit and Copy Vegeta.
base Goku/Vegeta are seemingly as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc (enough to easily defeat, but not one-shot, SS3 Gotenks),
Nope, wrong. BoG less than 10% Beerus owned Ultimate Gohan without even touching him. 100% Beerus in a Monaka costume struggled against Base Goku.

100% Beerus in Monaka costume = Base Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus > less than 10% Beerus > SSJ2 Angry Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:38 pm

Chiki wrote: Nope, wrong. BoG less than 10% Beerus owned Ultimate Gohan without even touching him. 100% Beerus in a Monaka costume struggled against Base Goku.
He wasn't 100%, he was explicitly stated to be restraining himself more than ever. Obviously if he was at 100%, or 10%, or even 1%, he would've swatted base Goku like a bug. He's stronger than base Goku x500, bare minimum.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:45 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Chiki wrote: Nope, wrong. BoG less than 10% Beerus owned Ultimate Gohan without even touching him. 100% Beerus in a Monaka costume struggled against Base Goku.
He wasn't 100%, he was explicitly stated to be restraining himself more than ever. Obviously if he was at 100%, or even 10%, he would've swatted base Goku like a bug.
No he wasn't. Beerus spoke to himself in his mind, saying that he was going to end it quickly. Meaning he wasn't lying. He was obviously 100%. How is that "restraining himself more than ever?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpdZi_NTIxw

Go to 2:34.

And he was never stated to be "restraining himself more than ever." Did you watch the ep? Show me a Youtube video of this. I've just watched the battle and they say things like "he snapped!" meaning he wasn't restraining himself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:48 pm

Chiki wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Chiki wrote: Nope, wrong. BoG less than 10% Beerus owned Ultimate Gohan without even touching him. 100% Beerus in a Monaka costume struggled against Base Goku.
He wasn't 100%, he was explicitly stated to be restraining himself more than ever. Obviously if he was at 100%, or even 10%, he would've swatted base Goku like a bug.
No he wasn't. Beerus spoke to himself in his mind, saying that he was going to end it quickly. Meaning he wasn't lying. He was obviously 100%.
He was obviously bullshitting. Because, as we already know, he's bare minimum hundreds of times stronger than base Goku (SS multiplies base power by 50 still judging by the Monaka fight, SSB provides another massive boost on top of that, and then Goku goes KK x10 and is still weaker than Beerus), enough to move faster than he could see and knock him out with a poke if he was serious. But that didn't happen, ergo, he wasn't at 100%. Or, to make it simple, Goku with several huge boosts is still inferior to Beerus, so Beerus without those same boosts obviously is far inferior to Beerus.
How is that "restraining himself more than ever?"
Context: Beerus dons a Monaka costume, and fights with Goku.

 15:47 | Piccolo: "Beerus-sama is having trouble?!"
 15:48 | Jaco: "It's because he's got that costume to worry about."
 17:46 | Whis: "He might have started to enjoy this. He's never fought in such restraint before"
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by VegetaSSJBlue » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:52 pm

Chiki wrote: 100% Beerus in Monaka costume = Base Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus > less than 10% Beerus > SSJ2 Angry Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan
<OBNOXIOUS REACTION IMAGES REMOVED BY MODERATOR>

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:52 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Context: Beerus dons a Monaka costume, and fights with Goku.

 15:47 | Piccolo: "Beerus-sama is having trouble?!"
 15:48 | Jaco: "It's because he's got that costume to worry about."
 17:46 | Whis: "He might have started to enjoy this. He's never fought in such restraint before"
No one lies to themselves or "bullshits" in their head unless they have a severe mental illness which we know Beerus doesn't.

The restraint = the costume. He's never fought with such a costume before. I'm not sure why you have trouble understanding that sentence.
VegetaSSJBlue wrote:
Chiki wrote: 100% Beerus in Monaka costume = Base Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus > less than 10% Beerus > SSJ2 Angry Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan

<IMAGES SNIPPED>
If you have something smart to say, you should say it. You won't be able to prove any of my arguments wrong, though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:56 pm

Chiki wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Context: Beerus dons a Monaka costume, and fights with Goku.

 15:47 | Piccolo: "Beerus-sama is having trouble?!"
 15:48 | Jaco: "It's because he's got that costume to worry about."
 17:46 | Whis: "He might have started to enjoy this. He's never fought in such restraint before"
No one lies to themselves or "bullshits" in their head unless they have a severe mental illness which we know Beerus doesn't.
So then do you want to explain why he didn't immediately defeat the guy we know he's hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:58 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Chiki wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Context: Beerus dons a Monaka costume, and fights with Goku.

 15:47 | Piccolo: "Beerus-sama is having trouble?!"
 15:48 | Jaco: "It's because he's got that costume to worry about."
 17:46 | Whis: "He might have started to enjoy this. He's never fought in such restraint before"
No one lies to themselves or "bullshits" in their head unless they have a severe mental illness which we know Beerus doesn't.
So then do you want to explain why he didn't immediately defeat the guy we know he's hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than?
We don't know that though. Why would Beerus be nervous about SSB Kaioken Goku, before he even went Kaioken x10?

I think SSB Kaioken Goku probably got uncomfortably close to Beerus in power (maybe 80% of 100% Beerus). I can't explain Kaioken x10, though. Hopefully the manga won't do Kaioken x10. Then we can use that for power levels instead.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:02 pm

Chiki wrote: We don't know that though. Why would Beerus be nervous about SSB Kaioken Goku, before he even went Kaioken x10?
Alright, so talking to you was a waste then.
I think SSB Kaioken Goku probably got uncomfortably close to Beerus in power (maybe 80% of 100% Beerus).
That would still make Beerus x100 stronger than base Goku and x2 stronger than SSB Goku, and therefore still strong enough to swat him like a bug. Jesus.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:06 pm

VegetaSSJBlue wrote:
Chiki wrote: 100% Beerus in Monaka costume = Base Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10% Beerus > less than 10% Beerus > SSJ2 Angry Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan

Image

Image
Every time anyone has this attitude on this kind of topic, it just further supports why people say Battle Power discussion is the biggest cancer in the Dragon Ball fandom.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:19 pm

Chiki wrote:But it's not Z filler or GT. Toriyama gives the outline for every arc.
And? Toei still add things, expand things, and change things. It's even worse than it was with DB/Z, because Toriyama only gives an outline instead of a whole manga. The manga is supposed to be closer to Toriyama's story draft (which only expands on Toriyama's story draft & has Toriyama's supervision), and look how different it is from the anime... meaning that either Toei is changing a lot of things, or Toriyama's story draft doesn't have many details. And seeing how many things are both similar & different between the anime & manga, it seems that Toriyama just doesn't give many details.

The facts are, in the anime, Goku just gets much, much stronger by absorbing the power of SSG, making his SS form as strong as SSG, and his base form x50 weaker. We see that Vegeta did the same thing, but through training instead of going through SSG, and they both achieved SSB through Whis' training. We see that Piccolo can now spar with Ultimate Gohan, to Goku's surprise. We see that the U6 fighters were good opponents for Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo.

The movies & manga show us different & more reasonable things, which makes sense since they are not written by Toei and have more involvement from Toriyama. Goku & Vegeta absorb the power of SSG and became come at the same level as SSG in their base forms, making their SS form useless, and become even stronger after achieving SSB thanks to Whis' training. The manga retcons this by having no mention of Goku & Vegeta ever absorbing the power of SSG (or if you want to connect the movies with the manga, assume that Goku & Vegeta absorbed the power of SSG & achieved the SbG form, which they have abandoned after FnF), and they achieve SSB thanks to Whis' training. Piccolo never trains with Gohan to get randomly stronger, and the U6 fighters (minus Hit) fight with base/SS Goku, base/SS Vegeta, and Piccolo, who are all nowhere near the level of gods & and still at the level they were since Boo arc, bringing the lazy Botamo, the dirty Frost, and the young Cabba at a reasonable level instead of SS3+ level like the anime did.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:58 pm

As usual, your argument is obviously wrong since Base Goku did extremely well against Beerus going all out (100% or close to that, since Beerus himself said he would try to end it quickly) in Monaka's costume in ep 43.
He wasn't going all out. A Beerus at 100% is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku using Kaioken x10, against Base Goku there would be no fight. He was hampered by the suit and Whis stopped it before it got too serious.
Do you honestly think Ultimate Gohan would do so well against 100% Beerus in Monaka's outfit? Not happening.
No but what does that have to do with anything?

Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan hence Mystic Gohan+ and so he performed better against Beerus than Gohan would.

There's no two bases theory though, that's the most obvious thing of all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:04 pm

Bullza wrote:
As usual, your argument is obviously wrong since Base Goku did extremely well against Beerus going all out (100% or close to that, since Beerus himself said he would try to end it quickly) in Monaka's costume in ep 43.
He wasn't going all out. A Beerus at 100% is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku using Kaioken x10, against Base Goku there would be no fight. He was hampered by the suit and Whis stopped it before it got too serious.
Do you honestly think Ultimate Gohan would do so well against 100% Beerus in Monaka's outfit? Not happening.
No but what does that have to do with anything?

Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan hence Mystic Gohan+ and so he performed better against Beerus than Gohan would.

There's no two bases theory though, that's the most obvious thing of all.
Pretty much.

Copy-Vegeta took all of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' attacks without flinching. He didn't 'power up' until Goku arrived. So if there is a two base theory, their non-god base is still stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Now you could say that Gotenks is weaker than he was in the Buu Saga, but usually when characters get weaker it is noted in some way, like with Gohan, and Copy-Vegeta compliments Trunks on his effects after defusing. So if Gotenks is weaker, it isn't a noticeable decrease.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:25 am

I think Beerus' reactions towards Goku vs. Hit and their own mini-fight are very contradictory and the notion that the Gods of Destruction's power is absolute is more and more being shaken. Even Zenou complimented Goku's performance. There is the possibility that Goku might face Gods of Destruction from the remanining universes. I think this discussion is still open for debate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:11 am

Chiki wrote:We can't say for certain, I think it's much more detailed than that.

It can't just be a coincidence that Goku and Vegeta only go SSJ for weaker guys like Final Form Frost, Magetta and Cabba but not Final Form Frieza, Hit and Copy Vegeta.
And I was actually beginning to wonder if anyone still adhered to that ridiculous two base theory... Well at least it's somewhat entertaining and refreshing to see old news resurface every now and then.

That said, I'm going to break this down as simply as possible, so that there is no room for misinterpretation.

What is the two base theory?

The two base theory was never stated to be a thing; it was some random fan-made theory that flooded numerous threads in hopes of justifying Piccolo's stellar performance against Frost.

How can Base Goku be so powerful?

Goku absorbed the powers of an SSG. This concept was outwardly manifested on two separate occasions:

First and foremost, he performed exceptionally well against Beerus during the events of BoG, despite fighting in base form.

Secondly, he was apparently able to tangle with Monaka-Beerus, who was seemingly exerting far more ki than he did against SSJ3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Mr. Buu, and Gotenks.

But Base Goku was shown exhibiting a different aura against Final Form Frieza.

If this SBG aura is a thing, it sure as heck isn't a consistent means of supporting its cause.

But we've never seen such large power increases in the past.

This series has long held a track record of introducing new characters who could easily trump even the strongest of their predecessors while powering up existing ones with little to no consistency in the amount of improvement. In fact, the only thing that's been consistent is the progressive increase in strength for both new and old characters. I can't recall there ever being a set amount that a particular character was limited to; so even if Piccolo went from Perfect Cell-tier to some unspecified Buuhan-busting level, it really doesn't surprise me.

I mean, would anyone have guessed that Frieza could become this powerful a few years ago? Or that some Zarbon-tier fodder could gain the power to beat down Base Gohan and post-RoSaT Piccolo in merely 4 months?

In-universe explanation to Piccolo's power-up?

Piccolo trained with a weakened Ultimate Gohan for a decent amount of time. I don't think I need to explain this one in-depth if you've seen the Android arc.

Why were Goku and Vegeta initially leaning towards keeping Buu on their team over Piccolo?

I honestly don't think Goku and Vegeta gave a shit about who fought on their team, as long as there was some foundation to fall back on during a time of despair. We're talking about a battle-hungry Saiyan duo, who presumably prioritized fighting the powerhouses of Universe 6, over strategizing and forming the best team. In any case, Even if Piccolo was a few notches above SSJ Vegetto, the difference would appear negligible to them, as their mind-boggling progressions likely make anything from the Buu arc seem trivial. Meaning, they probably knew that no one but them would make or break the situation, and that if they themselves were to lose, the remaining members would make little to no difference.

If Piccolo could become so strong, why didn't he just train during the Buu arc?

Simply put, he lacked a credible sparring partner to train with during Majin Buu and Babidi's brief reign of terror, as Gotenks was either all over the place or taking a nap. By the time Gotenks was in the RoSaT, there was no time to train, as Super Buu was already watching them all like a hawk.

From an out-of-universe standpoint, it's much akin to how Frieza refrained from training before embarking on his journey to Earth with Cold; power increases weren't part of the story at the time nor necessitated in any shape or form.

As some of the others have pointed out, we've seen plenty of inconsistencies scattered throughout GT and to a lesser extent Z; this is likely just another example of that.

Personally, I find these inconsistent power ups rather amusing, as they add flexibility and ultimately help make things more dynamic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:04 am

There's always the possibility that Goku didn't know Piccolo had got any stronger when he mentioned Buu first.

For all we know after the Frieza fight Goku and Vegeta went back to Beerus' planet. Piccolo started training with Gohan. We know that Goku can't sense energy on Earth with how far away he is so he wouldn't have known if Piccolo has surpassed Buu or not.

Piccolo's power is probably overrated anyway because they put emphasis on the fact that him fighting on the defensive and him being a strategically smart fighter was why he was able to put up a fight against someone he and Goku knew he had no chance in beating.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:23 am

Bullza wrote:There's always the possibility that Goku didn't know Piccolo had got any stronger when he mentioned Buu first.

For all we know after the Frieza fight Goku and Vegeta went back to Beerus' planet. Piccolo started training with Gohan. We know that Goku can't sense energy on Earth with how far away he is so he wouldn't have known if Piccolo has surpassed Buu or not.

Piccolo's power is probably overrated anyway because they put emphasis on the fact that him fighting on the defensive and him being a strategically smart fighter was why he was able to put up a fight against someone he and Goku knew he had no chance in beating.
Overrated or not, blocking a punch with one hand while exerting all of his concentration into one source implies that he wasn't worlds below Frost as some like to believe. Barring minor battle feats, he was still able to tangle with someone who is presumably stronger than Base Goku.

Assault Form Frost gaining the upper hand during his brief scuffle with Base Goku implies that the former is at least on par with the latter; so naturally, a transformation would more than likely give the Frieza look-alike the edge. To put it in perspective, if SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even touch Copy-Vegeta, it's unlikely that he would fare any better against Assault Form Frost, let alone Final Form Frost (someone Piccolo didn't fare terribly against).

Below are a few more points pertaining to the matter.

Copy-Vegeta was stronger than his counterpart from the tournament.

Even though Copy-Vegeta was presumably an upgraded version of the Saiyan prince, he was still likely suppressed; this is implied by his smug demeanor during his battle with SSJ3 Gotenks.

Buuhan, who is probably around 3-4x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, would still likely find the young SSJ3 moderately challenging if he were to go as low as 50% of his full power. While it'd still be a fairly one-sided battle in his favor, I doubt it'd be anything remotely akin to a clean sweep.

Goku lacked confidence in Piccolo's ability to trump Frost.

Piccolo being being this helpless fodder against Frost is nothing more than an exaggeration that was quickly contradicted in the ring. Goku likely doubted Piccolo because he himself was taken down; but his skepticism holds little validity, as he was completely unaware of the fact that he was cheated out of victory.

While I do agree the emphasis was on Piccolo being this tactician with nearly unrivaled battle ingenuity, it's been established quite a few times that strategy alone doesn't hold much weight against a vastly superior opponent.
Last edited by supercat on Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:01 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:39 am

Bullza wrote:There's always the possibility that Goku didn't know Piccolo had got any stronger when he mentioned Buu first.

For all we know after the Frieza fight Goku and Vegeta went back to Beerus' planet. Piccolo started training with Gohan. We know that Goku can't sense energy on Earth with how far away he is so he wouldn't have known if Piccolo has surpassed Buu or not.

Piccolo's power is probably overrated anyway because they put emphasis on the fact that him fighting on the defensive and him being a strategically smart fighter was why he was able to put up a fight against someone he and Goku knew he had no chance in beating.
The problem I have with this is if Piccolo got such a power up, it would have been mentioned in some way. For example, when Piccolo left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Cell Games, Goku notes that Piccolo has gotten a lot stronger, although he was still no match against Cell. Goku could have easily said during Piccolo's match with Frost that Piccolo has gotten stronger or stronger than he thought. He didn't in either the anime or the manga. Instead, Goku was impressed by Piccolo fighting smart.

On that note, when Gohan said he has been training again and wanted to test his skills, Goku looked at Gohan and his eyes widened in surprise before busting into a huge smile. From the way the scene is presented, Goku isn't surprise that Gohan wants to fight, but Goku seemed surprise by Gohan's growth.

Also supercat, Goku and Vegeta did care who would be on their team. Vegeta didn't want Fat Buu because he got beating by Beerus, which shows the standards Vegete was thinking of. Goku also wanted the reborn Kid Buu over Piccolo, and both Goku and Vegeta wanted Gohan, but Goku acknowledge that Gohan didn't fight anymore. Which leaves only Piccolo as the next strongest fighter after Buu. Goku and Vegeta were more than willing to dump Piccolo for Gohan, not replaced Buu.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:17 am

HeroR wrote:
Bullza wrote:There's always the possibility that Goku didn't know Piccolo had got any stronger when he mentioned Buu first.

For all we know after the Frieza fight Goku and Vegeta went back to Beerus' planet. Piccolo started training with Gohan. We know that Goku can't sense energy on Earth with how far away he is so he wouldn't have known if Piccolo has surpassed Buu or not.

Piccolo's power is probably overrated anyway because they put emphasis on the fact that him fighting on the defensive and him being a strategically smart fighter was why he was able to put up a fight against someone he and Goku knew he had no chance in beating.
The problem I have with this is if Piccolo got such a power up, it would have been mentioned in some way. For example, when Piccolo left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Cell Games, Goku notes that Piccolo has gotten a lot stronger, although he was still no match against Cell. Goku could have easily said during Piccolo's match with Frost that Piccolo has gotten stronger or stronger than he thought. He didn't in either the anime or the manga. Instead, Goku was impressed by Piccolo fighting smart.

On that note, when Gohan said he has been training again and wanted to test his skills, Goku looked at Gohan and his eyes widened in surprise before busting into a huge smile. From the way the scene is presented, Goku isn't surprise that Gohan wants to fight, but Goku seemed surprise by Gohan's growth.

Also supercat, Goku and Vegeta did care who would be on their team. Vegeta didn't want Fat Buu because he got beating by Beerus, which shows the standards Vegete was thinking of. Goku also wanted the reborn Kid Buu over Piccolo, and both Goku and Vegeta wanted Gohan, but Goku acknowledge that Gohan didn't fight anymore. Which leaves only Piccolo as the next strongest fighter after Buu. Goku and Vegeta were more than willing to dump Piccolo for Gohan, not replaced Buu.
Plenty of power ups have gone unnoticed in GT, and even a few during the Frieza arc.

Ok, so you're basically saying that Gohan's improvements became apparent due to some vague facial expression of Goku's that presented no real notable indication of anything whatsoever. But let's just assume that you're right; Gohan's power up would mean that Piccolo has also gotten substantially stronger. Don't you think Piccolo having a slight upper hand in a sparring match against Gohan (who was seemingly sporting his Ultimate appearance) implies that the former is worlds above his previous incarnations? You went on about how Gohan presumably had this smile-eliciting growth right? So if that were the case, wouldn't Piccolo (who basically held the edge against Gohan) have also gained a significant amount of power?

Did I say that Goku and Vegeta didn't care? Last I checked, I made it pretty clear that while they did care about winning, doing so strictly through strategic means was not their priority. You may want to consider reading through other people's posts more thoroughly before responding, as doing so would help streamline these discussions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:39 am

Well there's arguments to be made that Piccolo did get significantly stronger and arguments that he didn't.

Piccolo didn't want to fight Frost in his Final Form and knew he had no chance but if he was confident that he could go up against any form of Frost then he should be stronger than Frieza in his First Form.

So he should also be stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga. Which should also mean that the Gohan that Piccolo was fighting evenly with in training should be stronger than his previous Super Saiyan self too.

Perhaps that means that Gohan reached his Ultimate level power again so Piccolo is at that level but then maybe it doesn't at all.

Either way Piccolo should at the very least be stronger than Tagoma.

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