Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

Well there's arguments to be made that Piccolo did get significantly stronger and arguments that he didn't.

Piccolo didn't want to fight Frost in his Final Form and knew he had no chance but if he was confident that he could go up against any form of Frost then he should be stronger than Frieza in his First Form.

So he should also be stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga. Which should also mean that the Gohan that Piccolo was fighting evenly with in training should be stronger than his previous Super Saiyan self too.

Perhaps that means that Gohan reached his Ultimate level power again so Piccolo is at that level but then maybe it doesn't at all.

Either way Piccolo should at the very least be stronger than Tagoma.

Not just First Form Frieza, but Final Form Frieza as well.

Assault Form Frost having the edge on Base Goku suggests that during their brief scuffle, the former was either marginally stronger or the two were on par with one another. This in-turn implies that Piccolo was confident in tangling with an opponent who was strong enough to scathe the same Base Goku that gave Final Form Frieza a good beating.

As far-fetched as it may seem, the following seems pretty plausible thus far.

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > / = Assault Form Frost > Final Form Frieza

[HeroR]

There's always the possibility that Goku didn't know Piccolo had got any stronger when he mentioned Buu first.

For all we know after the Frieza fight Goku and Vegeta went back to Beerus' planet. Piccolo started training with Gohan. We know that Goku can't sense energy on Earth with how far away he is so he wouldn't have known if Piccolo has surpassed Buu or not.

Piccolo's power is probably overrated anyway because they put emphasis on the fact that him fighting on the defensive and him being a strategically smart fighter was why he was able to put up a fight against someone he and Goku knew he had no chance in beating.

The problem I have with this is if Piccolo got such a power up, it would have been mentioned in some way. For example, when Piccolo left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Cell Games, Goku notes that Piccolo has gotten a lot stronger, although he was still no match against Cell. Goku could have easily said during Piccolo's match with Frost that Piccolo has gotten stronger or stronger than he thought. He didn't in either the anime or the manga. Instead, Goku was impressed by Piccolo fighting smart.

On that note, when Gohan said he has been training again and wanted to test his skills, Goku looked at Gohan and his eyes widened in surprise before busting into a huge smile. From the way the scene is presented, Goku isn't surprise that Gohan wants to fight, but Goku seemed surprise by Gohan's growth.

Also supercat, Goku and Vegeta did care who would be on their team. Vegeta didn't want Fat Buu because he got beating by Beerus, which shows the standards Vegete was thinking of. Goku also wanted the reborn Kid Buu over Piccolo, and both Goku and Vegeta wanted Gohan, but Goku acknowledge that Gohan didn't fight anymore. Which leaves only Piccolo as the next strongest fighter after Buu. Goku and Vegeta were more than willing to dump Piccolo for Gohan, not replaced Buu.

Plenty of power ups have gone unnoticed in GT, and even a few during the Frieza arc.

Ok, so you're basically saying that Gohan's improvements became apparent due to some vague facial expression of Goku's that presented no real notable indication of anything whatsoever. But let's just assume that you're right; Gohan's power up would mean that Piccolo has also gotten substantially stronger. Don't you think Piccolo having a slight upper hand in a sparring match against Gohan (who was seemingly sporting his Ultimate appearance) implies that the former is worlds above his previous incarnations? You went on about how Gohan presumably had this smile-eliciting growth right? So if that were the case, wouldn't Piccolo (who basically held the edge against Gohan) have also gained a significant amount of power?

Did I say that Goku and Vegeta didn't care? Last I checked, I made it pretty clear that while they did care about winning, doing so strictly through strategic means was not their priority. You may want to consider reading through other people's posts more thoroughly before responding, as doing so would help streamline these discussions.

GT is GT. Unless you were Goku it didn't matter what your power level was so why bother commenting on it.

I also don't know what you mean about the Freeza Saga. All power jumps were commented on like Vegeta getting stronger from being beating on Earth and him powering up after Zarbon trashed him. Krillin and Gohan getting their power unlock was commented on, with Vegeta mistaking Gohan for Goku, and Vegeta becoming stronger than the Ginyu Force. You also have Freeza's shock expression when he read Vegeta's power level, and everyone commenting on how powerful Piccolo became. Seriously, what power level wasn't commented on?

Gohan was most likely fighting at Piccolo's level because they were training. Why would Gohan use his full power and flattened Piccolo when the point of the training is to get back in shape. It is the same reason why Goku and Vegeta train in his base forms. Long story short, Gohan most likely wasn't in his Ultimate form and was purposely matching his power to Piccolo, who got the upper hand because he is more skilled, experience, and in better shape. Goku's expression is him showing that he thinks Gohan has gotten stronger since the Resurrection 'F' Saga. You see Goku pause, and looked over Gohan for several seconds. With Piccolo, there is no acknowledge at all of his growth to the point the was literally everyone's last choice. In fact, Goku often use Piccolo as a low bar joke.

[ZombieVito]

Well there's arguments to be made that Piccolo did get significantly stronger and arguments that he didn't.

Piccolo didn't want to fight Frost in his Final Form and knew he had no chance but if he was confident that he could go up against any form of Frost then he should be stronger than Frieza in his First Form.

So he should also be stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga. Which should also mean that the Gohan that Piccolo was fighting evenly with in training should be stronger than his previous Super Saiyan self too.

Perhaps that means that Gohan reached his Ultimate level power again so Piccolo is at that level but then maybe it doesn't at all.

Either way Piccolo should at the very least be stronger than Tagoma.

Not just First Form Frieza, but Final Form Frieza as well.

Assault Form Frost having the edge on Base Goku suggests that during their brief scuffle, the former was either marginally stronger or the two were on par with one another. This in-turn implies that Piccolo was confident in tangling with an opponent who was strong enough to scathe the same Base Goku that gave Final Form Frieza a good beating.

As far-fetched as it may seem, the following seems pretty plausible thus far.

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > / = Assault Form Frost > Final Form Frieza

I just don't understand why everyone puts Assault Frost that high. Goku took a death beam to the face in the manga and was completely fine. In the anime he just got dust on him and he again was completely fine after their fight.

It's obvious Frost was not superior or equal to Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

I just don't understand why everyone puts Assault Frost that high. Goku took a death beam to the face in the manga and was completely fine. In the anime he just got dust on him and he again was completely fine after their fight.

It's obvious Frost was not superior or equal to Goku.

Frost was fine too. Is it ever implied Goku was holding back power in his base against Frost?

Speaking of which, Piccolo was perforated by one of Frost's quick-fired Death Beams. This is pretty notable because Goku just used his hand to block several of those beams when Freeza fired them at him, despite Freeza being noticeably superior to him at the time. That seems to indicate a significant gap in power is required for a quickly fired finger beam to just penetrate your enemy like a bullet. Moreover, Piccolo's "feats" in that battle were:

-Blocked a round of punches from his enemy

-Still fighting after being punched a few times

-Could have defeated his enemy with an attack that amplifies his power x3.5

So, while Piccolo clearly wasn't many times weaker than Frost, there's nothing really indicating that he was any stronger relative to Frost than Gotenks was to base Copy-Vegeta, or that Goku wasn't on the money when he said Piccolo was terribly outclassed. Hence why I have Gotenks, Piccolo, and the current Ultimate Gohan around the same strength ("tired Frost" is around base Goku/Vegeta IMO; just enough to give either trouble... Piccolo seemingly thinking that him fighting a lesser form of Frost would be a fairer fight would imply that the jump from Frost's 3rd form to his 4th isn't that large).

EDIT: Another interesting Frost-related tidbit. Cabba is surprised when he transforms, and Champa comments that he didn't know Frost could do that. Possibly implying that Cabba was just referring to 1st form Frost when he said Frost was a superior hand to hand fighter compared to him.

[Bullza]

Assault Form Frost having the edge on Base Goku suggests that during their brief scuffle, the former was either marginally stronger or the two were on par with one another. This in-turn implies that Piccolo was confident in tangling with an opponent who was strong enough to scathe the same Base Goku that gave Final Form Frieza a good beating.

But Goku wasn't taking that fight seriously. In the manga they fought very briefly, Frost knocked him down with a death beam to the face and then Goku hopped up, unscathed talking about how he was a slow starter and how the attack woke him up.

He knew Frost was still holding back so he transformed himself to show him he was doing the same.

That was still the same in the anime though it was made to look less convincing what with Frost flying through his Kamehameha but the implication is that he wasn't trying as hard as he could.

Certainly not like when he fought Frieza or Hit in the same form. So Base Goku could be well above Frost's third form.

[supercat]

Plenty of power ups have gone unnoticed in GT, and even a few during the Frieza arc.

Ok, so you're basically saying that Gohan's improvements became apparent due to some vague facial expression of Goku's that presented no real notable indication of anything whatsoever. But let's just assume that you're right; Gohan's power up would mean that Piccolo has also gotten substantially stronger. Don't you think Piccolo having a slight upper hand in a sparring match against Gohan (who was seemingly sporting his Ultimate appearance) implies that the former is worlds above his previous incarnations? You went on about how Gohan presumably had this smile-eliciting growth right? So if that were the case, wouldn't Piccolo (who basically held the edge against Gohan) have also gained a significant amount of power?

Did I say that Goku and Vegeta didn't care? Last I checked, I made it pretty clear that while they did care about winning, doing so strictly through strategic means was not their priority. You may want to consider reading through other people's posts more thoroughly before responding, as doing so would help streamline these discussions.

GT is GT. Unless you were Goku it didn't matter what your power level was so why bother commenting on it.

Because both shows have one major thing in common; Toei.

I also don't know what you mean about the Freeza Saga. All power jumps were commented on like Vegeta getting stronger from being beating on Earth and him powering up after Zarbon trashed him. Krillin and Gohan getting their power unlock was commented on, with Vegeta mistaking Gohan for Goku, and Vegeta becoming stronger than the Ginyu Force. You also have Freeza's shock expression when he read Vegeta's power level, and everyone commenting on how powerful Piccolo became. Seriously, what power level wasn't commented on?

Krillin was only noted to have become stronger twice (at most three times), despite his power growing incrementally during their battle against Frieza. Additionally, once the tyrant transformed, he received no recognition whatsoever. Why? Because whatever he gained was likely so trivial, it wasn't worth mentioning.

Gohan was most likely fighting at Piccolo's level because they were training. Why would Gohan use his full power and flattened Piccolo when the point of the training is to get back in shape. It is the same reason why Goku and Vegeta train in his base forms. Long story short, Gohan most likely wasn't in his Ultimate form and was purposely matching his power to Piccolo, who got the upper hand because he is more skilled, experience, and in better shape. Goku's expression is him showing that he thinks Gohan has gotten stronger since the Resurrection 'F' Saga. You see Goku pause, and looked over Gohan for several seconds. With Piccolo, there is no acknowledge at all of his growth to the point the was literally everyone's last choice. In fact, Goku often use Piccolo as a low bar joke.

I've debated against all kinds of odd theories, but this one by far takes the cake. Before we go further, let me ask you a question... Can you read Goku's mind? More to the point, do you think a show that is likely designed for a younger demographic would utilize such a subtle cue as a means of conveying something as crucial as a power up?

But again, let's just assume that you're right; we still don't have any evidence that Gohan was holding back. So we now have two speculations, with zero evidence. On top of that, the second speculation is presumably contradicted by Gohan's "facial expression" as he looked like he was exerting a good amount of effort.

So Goku making one light-hearted joke about Piccolo should be interpreted as a running gag? Yeah okay.

[supercat]

Assault Form Frost having the edge on Base Goku suggests that during their brief scuffle, the former was either marginally stronger or the two were on par with one another. This in-turn implies that Piccolo was confident in tangling with an opponent who was strong enough to scathe the same Base Goku that gave Final Form Frieza a good beating.

But Goku wasn't taking that fight seriously. In the manga they fought very briefly, Frost knocked him down with a death beam to the face and then Goku hopped up, unscathed talking about how he was a slow starter and how the attack woke him up.

He knew Frost was still holding back so he transformed himself to show him he was doing the same.

That was still the same in the anime though it was made to look less convincing what with Frost flying through his Kamehameha but the implication is that he wasn't trying as hard as he could.

Certainly not like when he fought Frieza or Hit in the same form. So Base Goku could be well above Frost's third form.

First and foremost, nothing explicitly stated that Goku was holding back.

Secondly, I did indicate that the two could have been equal didn't I? I mean, why the fuck should I assume that Base Goku was stronger than Assault Form Frost when we see the exact opposite? Things are becoming unnecessarily convoluted again.

While Goku holding back does make sense, I have no reason to believe that he was actually stronger than Frost's Assault Form; the latter straight up flew through a Kamehameha while managing to land some clean hits. Holding back or not, these are all feats that hint towards the two being equal at the very least in my opinion.

[namekiansaiyan]

I just don't understand why everyone puts Assault Frost that high. Goku took a death beam to the face in the manga and was completely fine. In the anime he just got dust on him and he again was completely fine after their fight.

It's obvious Frost was not superior or equal to Goku.

Frost was fine too. Is it ever implied Goku was holding back power in his base against Frost?

Speaking of which, Piccolo was perforated by one of Frost's quick-fired Death Beams. This is pretty notable because Goku just used his hand to block several of those beams when Freeza fired them at him, despite Freeza being noticeably superior to him at the time. That seems to indicate a significant gap in power is required for a quickly fired finger beam to just penetrate your enemy like a bullet. Moreover, Piccolo's "feats" in that battle were:

-Blocked a round of punches from his enemy

-Still fighting after being punched a few times

-Could have defeated his enemy with an attack that amplifies his power x3.5

So, while Piccolo clearly wasn't many times weaker than Frost, there's nothing really indicating that he was any stronger relative to Frost than Gotenks was to base Copy-Vegeta, or that Goku wasn't on the money when he said Piccolo was terribly outclassed. Hence why I have Gotenks, Piccolo, and the current Ultimate Gohan around the same strength ("tired Frost" is around base Goku/Vegeta IMO; just enough to give either trouble... Piccolo seemingly thinking that him fighting a lesser form of Frost would be a fairer fight would imply that the jump from Frost's 3rd form to his 4th isn't that large).

The blocking and dodging by Piccolo was done by him to fool Frost. He could have blocked and dodged Frost's attacks with ease all day long. When Piccolo got punched and kicked it did not have an effect him at all and the fake pain was used to fool Frost.The fight also showed that he could compete and to do that his power has to be close to Frost and he also did all that while charging the Special Beam Cannon. The fight also showed why Gohan and Gotenks were not picked by Toriyama to fight because they lack skill and fighting ability so would have lost to Frost easily. Piccolo is the only other fighter except from Vegeta and Goku who could make Frost cheat.

[Chiki]

Alright, so talking to you was a waste then.

It's only a waste if you get offended when I tell you basic facts that happened in the anime.



It's a fact that Beerus was nervous about SSB Kaioken Goku. I'm sorry, it's a fact, and nothing you say will change that.

This was BEFORE Beerus knew about Kaioken x3, x4, x10 etc.

That would still make Beerus x100 stronger than base Goku and x2 stronger than SSB Goku, and therefore still strong enough to swat him like a bug. Jesus.

You must think this is some kind of a slamdunk argument or something, but I'm afraid it's not. In BoG and RoF, SSG Goku is 60% of Beerus as confirmed by Toriyama and Toriyama also confirmed that he kept almost the full power of SSG in BoG after losing it. In RoF, SSB Goku is obviously still weaker than Beerus. If Base Goku is a 6 in RoF, SSB Goku is an 8, then SSB is a x1.33333 boost in RoF. I'm sorry, but this is also a fact proven by Toriyama himself. SSB is a very small boost in the movies. Dunno about Super, but Hit's fight against Goku seems to indicate that it is a similarly small boost.

The facts are, in the anime, Goku just gets much, much stronger by absorbing the power of SSG, making his SS form as strong as SSG, and his base form x50 weaker.

Then explain why Goku never turned SSJ to fight against Hit and Final Form Frieza. Why go straight to SSB? "Bad writing" isn't a good argument. This is not a coincidence.

He wasn't going all out. A Beerus at 100% is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku using Kaioken x10, against Base Goku there would be no fight. He was hampered by the suit and Whis stopped it before it got too serious.

Yes, Beerus 100% was extremely hampered by the suit. He was 100% serious, but he couldn't utilize his full power to not destroy the outfit. I don't deny that Beerus wasn't using his full power there.

No but what does that have to do with anything?

Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan hence Mystic Gohan+ and so he performed better against Beerus than Gohan would.

Everything. Wtf is the purpose of saying "Mystic Gohan+" when Base Goku is so much stronger than him? A single hit from Beerus in Monaka's costume would have knocked Mystic Gohan out. On the other hand, Base Goku had a 5 minute fight with Beerus in Monaka's costume. The gap between them is absolutely massive, akin to the gap between Ultimate Gohan and SSG Goku.

At this point, you should just admit that Base Goku is around SSG Goku's level of strength. You don't even have a reason to deny it anymore since your Base Goku = SS3 Goku idea was proven to be completely wrong. I don't know why you're so stubborn about saying Toriyama retconned, lol.

What is the two base theory?

The two base theory was never stated to be a thing; it was some random fan-made theory that flooded numerous threads in hopes of justifying Piccolo's stellar performance against Frost.

You guys really need to stop being so arrogant and full of yourselves. No, it's not a random fan-made theory. It's in Dragon Ball Heroes as "Saiyan Beyond God."

In-universe explanation to Piccolo's power-up?

Piccolo trained with a weakened Ultimate Gohan for a decent amount of time.

Why didn't Buu Saga Piccolo train with SSJ Gotenks in the RoSaT then? He could've easily beaten Buu if he had!

imply put, he lacked a credible sparring partner to train with during Majin Buu and Babidi's brief reign of terror, as Gotenks was either all over the place or taking a nap.

Why couldn't he have gone in the RoSaT with Gotenks?

[AvatarReiko]

How does current Piccolo compare to Buu saga Goku, Gotenks and the Buu forms?

Is SSB still weaker than SSJ God Red or has that been retconned?

[Chiki]

How does current Piccolo compare to Buu saga Goku, Gotenks and the Buu forms?

Is SSB still weaker than SSJ God Red or has that been retconned?

SSB is still stronger than SSG.

How does current Piccolo compare to them? Depends on whether or not you accept the two base theory. If you reject it, then he can oneshot all of them, Buuhan included. So he's far more powerful. If you accept it, then he would get owned by everyone. A huge difference huh?

[namekiansaiyan]

How does current Piccolo compare to Buu saga Goku, Gotenks and the Buu forms?

Is SSB still weaker than SSJ God Red or has that been retconned?

SSB is still stronger than SSG.

How does current Piccolo compare to them? Depends on whether or not you accept the two base theory. If you reject it, then he can oneshot all of them, Buuhan included. So he's far more powerful. If you accept it, then he would get owned by everyone. A huge difference huh?

2 base theory is just made up by fans so unless stated you have to assume there is 1 base.

[Chiki]

How does current Piccolo compare to Buu saga Goku, Gotenks and the Buu forms?

Is SSB still weaker than SSJ God Red or has that been retconned?

SSB is still stronger than SSG.

How does current Piccolo compare to them? Depends on whether or not you accept the two base theory. If you reject it, then he can oneshot all of them, Buuhan included. So he's far more powerful. If you accept it, then he would get owned by everyone. A huge difference huh?

2 base theory is just made up by fans so unless stated you have to assume there is 1 base.

Why do people keep repeating "THE TWO BASE THEORY IS MADE UP BY FANS!!!!"?

It's in Dragon Ball Heroes as "Saiyan Beyond God."

[Bullza]

First and foremost, nothing explicitly stated that Goku was holding back.

It wasn't said just heavily implied.

Frost blasted him in the face, knocked Goku down, Goku with a smile on his face then hops back up completely unhurt much to Frost's surprise, says that his attack "woke him up" and that he's "a slow starter" whilst stretching.

We see Frost winning but the implication is that Goku was not fighting seriously.

Yes, Beerus 100% was extremely hampered by the suit. He was 100% serious, but he couldn't utilize his full power to not destroy the outfit. I don't deny that Beerus wasn't using his full power there.

So what's the problem? Beerus wasn't using his full power so he would have been using a certain amount of power to give Goku a good fight, that's it.

Everything. Wtf is the purpose of saying "Mystic Gohan+" when Base Goku is so much stronger than him?

That's what the + is there for. Before we knew he was stronger than SSJ3 so he was SSJ3+. With the recent episode where Copy Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Gotenks we can now say he's Mystic Gohan+.

If he somehow fought Super Vegito and won then he'd be Super Vegito+.

At this point, you should just admit that Base Goku is around SSG Goku's level of strength.

That is what I've said.

You don't even have a reason to deny it anymore since your Base Goku = SS3 Goku idea was proven to be completely wrong.

I never said that.

It's in Dragon Ball Heroes as "Saiyan Beyond God."

That's not what supports the two base theory. There's regular base Goku and then he powered up after he absorbed the power of God and now since then in Resurrection F onwards he's this "Saiyan Beyond God".

He can't switch it on and off which is what the two base theory is. There's his base before and there's his base now and that's it.

[TheMikado]

Hahahaha OMG this thread! Months later we are still debating the Piccolo vs Frost, Beerus vs SSBxKK vs SSBxKK10, and the 2 base theory!!
This is exactly why power levels DO MATTER. I feel like I should make a thread explaining this because I hear it repeated all the time when story elements do not line up correctly.
I don't think anyone cares that X character is 0.5% more powerful then X as stage 2 while enraged.. but a general understanding on a characters capabilities is a general requirement for a narrative.

[HeroR]

Plenty of power ups have gone unnoticed in GT, and even a few during the Frieza arc.

Ok, so you're basically saying that Gohan's improvements became apparent due to some vague facial expression of Goku's that presented no real notable indication of anything whatsoever. But let's just assume that you're right; Gohan's power up would mean that Piccolo has also gotten substantially stronger. Don't you think Piccolo having a slight upper hand in a sparring match against Gohan (who was seemingly sporting his Ultimate appearance) implies that the former is worlds above his previous incarnations? You went on about how Gohan presumably had this smile-eliciting growth right? So if that were the case, wouldn't Piccolo (who basically held the edge against Gohan) have also gained a significant amount of power?

Did I say that Goku and Vegeta didn't care? Last I checked, I made it pretty clear that while they did care about winning, doing so strictly through strategic means was not their priority. You may want to consider reading through other people's posts more thoroughly before responding, as doing so would help streamline these discussions.

GT is GT. Unless you were Goku it didn't matter what your power level was so why bother commenting on it.

Because both shows have one major thing in common; Toei.

I also don't know what you mean about the Freeza Saga. All power jumps were commented on like Vegeta getting stronger from being beating on Earth and him powering up after Zarbon trashed him. Krillin and Gohan getting their power unlock was commented on, with Vegeta mistaking Gohan for Goku, and Vegeta becoming stronger than the Ginyu Force. You also have Freeza's shock expression when he read Vegeta's power level, and everyone commenting on how powerful Piccolo became. Seriously, what power level wasn't commented on?

Krillin was only noted to have become stronger twice (at most three times), despite his power growing incrementally during their battle against Frieza. Additionally, once the tyrant transformed, he received no recognition whatsoever. Why? Because whatever he gained was likely so trivial, it wasn't worth mentioning.

Gohan was most likely fighting at Piccolo's level because they were training. Why would Gohan use his full power and flattened Piccolo when the point of the training is to get back in shape. It is the same reason why Goku and Vegeta train in his base forms. Long story short, Gohan most likely wasn't in his Ultimate form and was purposely matching his power to Piccolo, who got the upper hand because he is more skilled, experience, and in better shape. Goku's expression is him showing that he thinks Gohan has gotten stronger since the Resurrection 'F' Saga. You see Goku pause, and looked over Gohan for several seconds. With Piccolo, there is no acknowledge at all of his growth to the point the was literally everyone's last choice. In fact, Goku often use Piccolo as a low bar joke.

I've debated against all kinds of odd theories, but this one by far takes the cake. Before we go further, let me ask you a question... Can you read Goku's mind? More to the point, do you think a show that is likely designed for a younger demographic would utilize such a subtle cue as a means of conveying something as crucial as a power up?

But again, let's just assume that you're right; we still don't have any evidence that Gohan was holding back. So we now have two speculations, with zero evidence. On top of that, the second speculation is presumably contradicted by Gohan's "facial expression" as he looked like he was exerting a good amount of effort.

So Goku making one light-hearted joke about Piccolo should be interpreted as a running gag? Yeah okay.

Whether GT is made by Toei is a none factor. GT rarely gave the power of anyone if they wren't named Goku since he was the only one worth a crap in that show.

I also have no idea what you are talking about with Freeza. All of Freeza's transformations were commented on. When he went into his third form, Piccolo is shocked that Freeza got much faster and Krillin says that all the damaged from before got healed. When Freeza transformed for the final time, Krillin comments how small Freeza is before Piccolo said that Freeza's power is beyond any form before. Also, Krillin power didn't increase during the battle with Freeza. He isn't a Saiyan, he doesn't get stronger from near death experiences. His power remained exactly where it was after the Elder Namek awakening his latent power. Gohan on the other hand made many gains, which were all commented on, especially after Freeza nearly killed him.

And since this is a show for kids, wouldn't it be more important to say when a character makes noticeable improvements instead of trying to say someone is using their strongest form based on how their eyes are design in a given scene. Also, holding back while training has been shown in the show like with Goku and Vegeta sparring each other. So why would one first assume that Gohan is using his ultimate power against Piccolo while training, when there is a history of characters holding back against a weaker opponent or sparring partner.

We don't have evident Gohan is holding back, but you don't have any evident that he's going all out. So we can only based our assumption on the history of the show, and the history of the show doesn't support Piccolo gaining a big power jump because no one said a thing. Not Goku, not Vegeta, not Krillin, not one said anything about Piccolo getting stronger when the series makes it a point to say when someone is much stronger. They did it with Vegeta in this last episode where Goku notes that Vegeta has improved. So it's odd that no one made a one-off statement, 'oh, Piccolo has gotten better', or 'Piccolo has improved more than I thought'. So saying Piccolo jumped to being maybe around Perfect Cell's level to rivaling one of the Buu forms seems extremely unlikely since there is a big power different between Cell and even the weakest Buu form.

[TheMikado]

^ to be fair to GT the only time they made power comparisons was when they were legitimately faced with powerful foes. An example being General Rildo and Goku's comment. GT was bad but no where near this bad. I'm not sure why that myth continues on.

[Chiki]

So what's the problem? Beerus wasn't using his full power so he would have been using a certain amount of power to give Goku a good fight, that's it.

....The problem is that Beerus wanted to finish it quickly, not give Goku a good fight. This is a fact and he stated it himself as simply as possible. I don't know what more I have to do to make it easy to understand.

That's what the + is there for. Before we knew he was stronger than SSJ3 so he was SSJ3+. With the recent episode where Copy Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Gotenks we can now say he's Mystic Gohan+.

If he somehow fought Super Vegito and won then he'd be Super Vegito+.

It's extremely misleading. It's like saying Whis is Yamcha+ because he's stronger than Yamcha. Lol

I never said that.

Are you serious? Come on, don't lie. I can dig up many more posts than this one in which you say Base is around SSJ3 BoG Goku level:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 2#p1084092

Or #3 is the case and Base/SSJ was SSJG level just during the Beerus fight and then then most if the power went dormant afterwards. So Base is just SSJ3 level or more.

That's not what supports the two base theory. There's regular base Goku and then he powered up after he absorbed the power of God and now since then in Resurrection F onwards he's this "Saiyan Beyond God".

He can't switch it on and off which is what the two base theory is. There's his base before and there's his base now and that's it.

Someone already corrected you some weeks ago and he can turn it on and off in Heroes.

[Bullza]

The problem is that Beerus wanted to finish it quickly, not give Goku a good fight. This is a fact and he stated it himself as simply as possible.

He couldnt have wanted to finish it that quickly if he wasn't using his full power. He wasn't using his full power so he was using an unknown amount of power that was enough to give Goku a good fight.

It's extremely misleading. It's like saying Whis is Yamcha+ because he's stronger than Yamcha. Lol

Well that would be obvious. Base Goku's strenght was partly unknown, some believed him to be weaker than Buu but I believed based on what we knew that he was at least SSJ3 level. Now we know he's at least probably Mystic Gohan level. So the range has been narrowed down.

Are you serious? Come on, don't lie. I can dig up many more posts than this one in which you say Base is around SSJ3 BoG Goku level:

I wasn't specifically referring to that SSJ3. Gotenks is SSJ3. I was already saying before when people were saying Goku was weaker than Buu that Frieza would have to be at least as strong as SSJ3.

I even said it was arguable that Frieza in his first form was SSJ3 level because of how strong Super Saiyan Gohan should be.

Someone already corrected you some weeks ago and he can turn it on and off in Heroes.

That's just a game. The same ordinary Goku can transform into SSJ4, SSJG and SSJB.

Him turning on and off this power in the movies or the show isn't a thing. There's just how he was before and how he is now which is stronger because he absorbed the power of a God.

A before and after not an on and off.

[Chiki]

He couldnt have wanted to finish it that quickly if he wasn't using his full power. He wasn't using his full power so he was using an unknown amount of power that was enough to give Goku a good fight.

...Why do you keep repeating "He wanted to give Goku a good fight!!!"? He didn't. He said he wanted to finish it quickly. He NEVER said he wanted to give Goku a good fight. Go on Youtube and find a vid where he says he wanted to give Goku a good fight. You can go to fanfiction.net and write something about it if you wish, but the fact is that he was 100% serious vs. Base Goku.

Well that would be obvious. Base Goku's strenght was partly unknown, some believed him to be weaker than Buu but I believed based on what we knew that he was at least SSJ3 level. Now we know he's at least probably Mystic Gohan level. So the range has been narrowed down.

At least? That means he might be Mystic Gohan level. No, we know for sure he's way above Mystic Gohan level. It's about as meaningful as saying that Beerus is Oolong+. He's at least as strong as Oolong.

I wasn't specifically referring to that SSJ3. Gotenks is SSJ3. I was already saying before when people were saying Goku was weaker than Buu that Frieza would have to be at least as strong as SSJ3.

I even said it was arguable that Frieza in his first form was SSJ3 level because of how strong Super Saiyan Gohan should be.

Look, it's one thing if you're wrong, and another thing if you lie about it. Here's a tier list you gave before:

This is how I have it now.

Buu arc

SSJ3 Gotenks - 8
SSJ3 Goku - 1

Champa arc

Goku - 1.58

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 3#p1073284

1.58 is much closer to 1 than it is to 8. You had Champa Arc Base Goku at 1.5 of SSJ3 Goku, putting him at x1.5 of SSJ3 Goku's level of strength.

That's just a game. The same ordinary Goku can transform into SSJ4, SSJG and SSJB.

Him turning on and off this power in the movies or the show isn't a thing. There's just how he was before and how he is now which is stronger because he absorbed the power of a God.

A before and after not an on and off.

It's just a game, and not official confirmation, I agree with that; but it's received acknowledgement and therefore is not merely a fan theory with no basis.