Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kaboom wrote:"Strongest in the history of Z" means "strongest so far."
It means strongest in Z. BOG is Z. And if Whis is stronger than Beers, so can be Vegetto.
Rocketman wrote:
I don't have to accept stupid lines from BoG any more than I have to accept stupid lines from GT. Since both are complete shit, I prefer not to.
I'm not applying anything regarding BOG (besides some Toriyama-approved things) to the "real" DB, I'm discussing BOG's own universe and its contradictions.
... Maybe Vegetto is weaker according to BOG than according to the original?
Kaboom wrote:"Strongest in the history of Z" means "strongest so far."
It means strongest in Z. BOG is Z. And if Whis is stronger than Beers, so can be Vegetto.
No. None of the promotional stuff said that Beers is the strongest character in the movie. The promotional stuff want to say that Beers is stronger than anything we have seen so far. Even in the movie, Beers is supposed to be the strongest in the universe, until he reveals that Whis is even stronger (there is even a line that says "This must mean that the real strongest in the universe is…", but I'm not sure if that's the exact line).
Even in the movie, it's implied that Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than Super Vegetto, since Goku couldn't believe that there is such a realm of power. This wouldn't make sense if Vegetto is stronger, since Goku is Vegetto, meaning that he knows Vegetto's full power, and wouldn't be surprised that Super Saiyan God is so unimaginably strong.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You mixed "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" & BoG together?! That's a mess.
Not really, it fits together quite nicely.
What's so nice about a mathematical battle power that shouldn't be possible? What's so nice about Goku getting millions of times stronger? These things never happened in Dragon Ball, not even GT did such things.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
hleV wrote:They didn't say that Beers is strongest among everyone we've seen in Z before. They said Beers is strongest in Z.
And then we learn that the actual strongest is Whis. This isn't a contradiction, it's a revelation. We know that Beers is stronger, and then we learn that Whis is even stronger, and that there are guys in the other universes that are probably even stronger than that. This doesn't make Vegetto stronger than Beers.
But like I said, even ignoring that line, Whis, Beers, and God Goku are implied to be stronger in the movie itself.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You mixed "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" & BoG together?! That's a mess.
Not really, it fits together quite nicely.
What's so nice about a mathematical battle power that shouldn't be possible? What's so nice about Goku getting millions of times stronger? These things never happened in Dragon Ball, not even GT did such things.
Goku has also never fought the God of destruction, whom is in a realm of power Goku never thought could exist. I have no problem with Goku not only getting millions of times stronger but billions of times stronger.
Rocketman wrote:I don't have to accept stupid lines from BoG any more than I have to accept stupid lines from GT. Since both are complete shit, I prefer not to.
Well Toriyama was heavily involved with BoG as opposed to GT, not to mention Toriyama says GT is a side story where as he connects BoG with the original manga with his statement about Kaio's planet. What's so wrong with a SSJ God being stronger than a fusion of 2 SSJs?
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I have no problem with Goku not only getting millions of times stronger but billions of times stronger.
This is too much. Way too much, and needlessly too much.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I have no problem with Goku not only getting millions of times stronger but billions of times stronger.
This is too much. Way too much, and needlessly too much.
I don't see how. Goku sets the bar pretty damn high for himself and he didn't even think someone can be in this realm of power.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I don't see how. Goku sets the bar pretty damn high for himself and he didn't even think someone can be in this realm of power.
God Goku could be 100 times stronger than, say, Ultimate Gohan. But billions of times? No, just... no.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I don't see how. Goku sets the bar pretty damn high for himself and he didn't even think someone can be in this realm of power.
God Goku could be 100 times stronger than, say, Ultimate Gohan. But billions of times? No, just... no.
No... Goku at bare minimum has to be at least 10,000x stronger than his base self to surpass Super Vegetto and that's being hella generous.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I don't see how. Goku sets the bar pretty damn high for himself and he didn't even think someone can be in this realm of power.
God Goku could be 100 times stronger than, say, Ultimate Gohan. But billions of times? No, just... no.
No... Goku at bare minimum has to be at least 10,000x stronger than his base self to surpass Super Vegetto and that's being hella generous.
That is if you take "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" as an actual BP multiplication, which there is no reason for me to believe this. If that's the case, then Gotenks is Goten + Trunks.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:That is if you take "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" as an actual BP multiplication, which there is no reason for me to believe this. If that's the case, then Gotenks is Goten + Trunks.
It's like addition, not specifically addition.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
If you go by the statement of Goku not surpassing Freeza in base, then the numbers aren't as outrageous.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Well Toriyama was heavily involved with BoG as opposed to GT, not to mention Toriyama says GT is a side story where as he connects BoG with the original manga with his statement about Kaio's planet.
Don't care, much the same way people don't care that Lucas made Greedo shoot first.
What's so wrong with a SSJ God being stronger than a fusion of 2 SSJs?
~*~*~*~*GOKUUUU*~*~*~*~
After all the anger and jokes about GT's "Godku", I'm honestly surprised so many people are happily swallowing literally turning Goku into a god.
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Well Toriyama was heavily involved with BoG as opposed to GT, not to mention Toriyama says GT is a side story where as he connects BoG with the original manga with his statement about Kaio's planet.
Don't care, much the same way people don't care that Lucas made Greedo shoot first.
What's so wrong with a SSJ God being stronger than a fusion of 2 SSJs?
~*~*~*~*GOKUUUU*~*~*~*~
After all the anger and jokes about GT's "Godku", I'm honestly surprised so many people are happily swallowing literally turning Goku into a god.
At that point your just ignoring what the author states and that my friend leaves you with no credibility. You know I get this vibe that you absolutely despise Goku. Why is that? SSJ God isn't Goku specific.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Rocketman wrote:After all the anger and jokes about GT's "Godku", I'm honestly surprised so many people are happily swallowing literally turning Goku into a god.
Out of complete fairness here... The problem is that GT just made Goku the very best by a wide margin from the start with no apparent reason or explanation most of the time, and turned him into a complete spotlight hog on top of it.
[Spoilers] But in Battle of Gods, Goku gets his Super Saiyan 3 ass handed to him effortlessly by Beers in the very first fight of the movie. The eventual "Super Saiyan God" solution actually has some believable why and how behind it, requires the help of the others instead of just brushing them off, the power is exhausted very quickly, it's not exclusive to Goku, and in the end, he can't even actually defeat the "bad guy" with it. It's very different from Goku being inexplicably overpowered in GT.[/Spoilers]
TheMightyOzaru wrote:You know I get this vibe that you absolutely despise Goku. Why is that? SSJ God isn't Goku specific.
I don't despise Goku, I despise Goku-wank. Y'know, all the "Oh Goku, you're the best, nobody else can do it but youuuu~" shit.
Gohan, O He Of Surpassing-His-Father Potential, gets all of it unlocked by the King of the Gods. NOO GOKU DID MOUNTAIN TRAINING NOW HE IS STRONGEST AGAIN AND ALSO A GOD
Vegeta: "Why does Goku get the powerup?" YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH IT'S GOKU TIME
