"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Li'l Lemmy]

You're not telling me what you don't agree with. As I said, I made nothing but objective statements about Goten which has nothing do with personally likes or dislikes. He's at best a satellite character who exists in the Buu Saga to give moral support to Gohan, to be friends with Trunks, and to form Gotenks. At least Kale and Cali served the story, while Goten could have died in the Buu Saga and nothing would have changed in Super, which is not a good place for any character. Goten isn't a good written character because he's barely a character, which is the worst thing you can be, Imo, because even a bad or flawed personality is better than none at all or barely one. It's closed to impossible to hate Gohan as a character since there isn't much there to hate.

My apologies, I missed this portion. Although I confess, I'm not exactly certain what it is you're driving at. I've already conceded that Goten needs a lot more in terms of personality and purpose- in other words, you were mostly right in your objective observations.

At the moment I'd say that Caulifla has contributed about as much as Goten did in Z, so I suppose on that we would simply agree to disagree regarding each character's importance to the story and/or functionality as a plot device. She's clearly the more defined personality, but so far hasn't done anything that Goten didn't already do (have a best friend, be a super prodigy, participate in a tournament, perform fusion, etc). She has certainly done it all in fewer episodes, though.

Goten dying in the Boo arc would have had at least one tremendous impact on DBS; there would have been one less saiyan for the Super Saiyan God ritual, which would not have been possible.

[mfwlegend3]

[namekiansaiyan]

It is because they Saiyans and many fans will like just because they are new Saiyans. This fanbase does not seem to like much variety.

That's one way dismissed people who like Cali and Kale. They obviously don't like the characters, it's all because they're Saiyans.

You actually don't think that many people like them just because they are female Saiyans? You can easily tell that is a big reason for their 'popularity'.

[HeroR]

My apologies, I missed this portion. Although I confess, I'm not exactly certain what it is you're driving at. I've already conceded that Goten needs a lot more in terms of personality and purpose- in other words, you were mostly right in your objective observations.

At the moment I'd say that Caulifla has contributed about as much as Goten did in Z, so I suppose on that we would simply agree to disagree regarding each character's importance to the story and/or functionality as a plot device. She's clearly the more defined personality, but so far hasn't done anything that Goten didn't already do (have a best friend, be a super prodigy, participate in a tournament, perform fusion, etc). She has certainly done it all in fewer episodes, though.

Goten dying in the Boo arc would have had at least one tremendous impact on DBS; there would have been one less saiyan for the Super Saiyan God ritual, which would not have been possible.

My original point is that you called Cali and Kale badly written and a train wreck. My counterpoint was that 'bad writing' is something you can talk about objectively and nothing something that should be reduced to 'I personally dislike this character for such reason'. Like all of your grief about Kale and Cali have been personal, but then you tried to make your point-of-view objected with 'bad writer'. Granted, this may not have been your intention, but that is how you come off. Instead of having an honest discussion about the real flaws in their character, you overexaggerated their issues and it comes off as dishonest. Like, you don't want a real discussion about them, you just want to vent. Which is fine too, but you can do that without using hyperbolic about them.

Goten moved the plot in the Buu Saga, but we're talking now, not then. Plotwise, Goten has no purposed other than being Goku's other son. Cali also serves to show another side to the U6 Saiyans that others thought were all like Cabba and Kale isn't just her friend like Trunks is to Goten, but her student as well. Their relationship is closer to Piccolo and Gohan then Goten and Trunks.

I do see your point that Goten did served that purpose in Super.

You actually don't think that many people like them just because they are female Saiyans? You can easily tell that is a big reason for their 'popularity'.

That is you making assumptions. Unless you have talked to every Kale and Cali fan or did a poll, you can't just say 'the majority only likes them because they're female Saiyans'.

[Michsi]

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Man, this is just going to rile people up even more. This is one instance where I think spoilers do waaay more harm than good.

[Ziegander]

Kale LSSJ = 1,000,000,000,000 x base power multiplier confirmed.

[Ki Breaker]

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Man, this is just going to rile people up even more. This is one instance where I think spoilers do waaay more harm than good.

This looks good enough to me, at least there is a reason for their fusion and finally ends the they could have known it all along but still never used it once or hinted it anywhere at all, seriously, them knowing hakai is also cool because different Universe duh..
That was all a load of bullshit and not even worth arguing against..

This, on the other hand makes more sense, Cauliflowa can't reach SS3 and rightfully so, having a shitty attitude shouldn't automatically grant powers..
Fusion happens and Goku dosen't teach them, Champa does..
It's a great way of handling seemingly bad plot points..

And Now, we wait for the execution..
Hopefully, it will be made tolerable enough to give a shot..

[Michsi]

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Man, this is just going to rile people up even more. This is one instance where I think spoilers do waaay more harm than good.

This looks good enough to me, at least there is a reason for their fusion and finally ends the they could have known it all along but still never used it once or hinted it anywhere at all, seriously, them knowing hakai is also cool because different Universe duh..
That was all a load of bullshit and not even worth arguing against..

This, on the other hand makes more sense, Cauliflowa can't reach SS3 and rightfully so, having a shitty attitude shouldn't automatically grant powers..
Fusion happens and Goku dosen't teach them, Champa does..
It's a great way of handling seemingly bad plot points..

And Now, we wait for the execution..
Hopefully, it will be made tolerable enough to give a shot..

Ahh, see, I think I misinterpreted that line about SSJ3 despite that I too believed the fusion would be used to reach SSJ3

I thought this meant they each would master SSJ3 and then fuse. Jumped the gun there a little.

As I said a few posts ago, them reaching SSJ3 as a fusion should appease those who feel they're going through power-ups a little too fast.

[MisteryOne]

I'm actually interested on how Kefla will look design like, and if it is going to be a metamoran fusion or something new. I doubt they will handle it well considering the failure Merged Zamasu was, but if they manage to do it well, it could be pretty awesome.

[HeroR]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Man, this is just going to rile people up even more. This is one instance where I think spoilers do waaay more harm than good.

This looks good enough to me, at least there is a reason for their fusion and finally ends the they could have known it all along but still never used it once or hinted it anywhere at all, seriously, them knowing hakai is also cool because different Universe duh..
That was all a load of bullshit and not even worth arguing against..

This, on the other hand makes more sense, Cauliflowa can't reach SS3 and rightfully so, having a shitty attitude shouldn't automatically grant powers..
Fusion happens and Goku dosen't teach them, Champa does..
It's a great way of handling seemingly bad plot points..

And Now, we wait for the execution..
Hopefully, it will be made tolerable enough to give a shot..

Ahh, see, I think I misinterpreted that line about SSJ3 despite that I too believed the fusion would be used to reach SSJ3

I thought this meant they each would master SSJ3 and then fuse. Jumped the gun there a little.

As I said a few posts ago, them reaching SSJ3 as a fusion should appease those who feel they're going through power-ups a little too fast.

I think everyone is jumping the gun. Cali's line neither confirmed or deny she gets Super Saiyan 3 through normal means or fusion.

[Ziegander]

Eh... if they fuse just so they can go SSJ3, then... I mean, I shouldn't even have to say this, but then the power scaling would be broken, again.

In base they should already be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was in the Buu saga. It sounds completely insane, but if the power scaling follows any logical metric as established by any of Z's previous power scaling (and I'm not saying it does), then base Caulifla is at least as strong as base Cabba who can go toe to toe with base Vegeta who is at least as strong as base Goku and base Goku/Vegeta are maybe a smidge less powerful than Final Form Freeza who completely dominated Super Saiyan Gohan in RoF with his FIRST FORM, a severely weakened Gohan, sure, and one who honestly may not even have had the power his dad did when he originally went Super Saiyan on Namek, but regardless, if you put SSJ RoF Gohan at 75 million, half his dad's power on Namek, and put First Form Freeza at 120 million, his 100% final form power on Namek, then Final Form Freeza from RoF would have a power level of 27 billion, compared with the generally accepted figure of 8 billion for SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku. Seems obvious to me that Goku's base power in RoF would be at least 20 billion or so. So, yeah, if Caulifla can keep up with Cabba, and she can, then she can keep up with Vegeta, and if she can do that, her base power level is at minimum 2x to 3x, and maybe even higher, than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku. So... the idea that they couldn't go SSJ3 without fusing seems... odd... to me.

I know, I know. Super broke power scaling. None of the above actually matters. But... but consistency... but consistency... *cries quietly in the corner*

[Michsi]

I think everyone is jumping the gun. Cali's line neither confirmed for deny she gets Super Saiyan 3 through normal means or fusion.

Comes with the territory of speculation. Secret is not to be so gung-ho about it I'd say.

[SansrivaaL]

I have a good feeling about this Kefla thing being introduced, this normally happens when they push something that seemingly looks bad but ends up being one of the greatest things they coulda done, just like Goku Black and Freeza.
As for the spoilers it doesnt say Cauli goes SSJ3 just yet, by the off chance that she does get it and then fusion the next ep... it would really piss me off to a degree but if it plays out like
[spoiler]Goku: This is SSJ3
Cauli: I cant do it...
Kale: What do we do sis?
Chanpa: Hey! listen up, try fusing! "demonstrates or tells them a unique way to fuse"
Goku: Oh yeah.. I remember the kids back on my universe could go SSj3 after they fused, you guys should try it.
Kefla: "goes SSJ3" oh shit.. this feels tingly![/spoiler]
Basically I have no problem if Kefla goes SSJ3, but if Cauli and Kale goes SSJ3 separately then yeah, that'll sting.

[HeroR]

I have a good feeling about this Kefla thing being introduced, this normally happens when they push something that seemingly looks bad but ends up being one of the greatest things they coulda done, just like Goku Black and Freeza.
As for the spoilers it doesnt say Cauli goes SSJ3 just yet, by the off chance that she does get it and then fusion the next ep... it would really piss me off to a degree but if it plays out like
[spoiler]Goku: This is SSJ3
Cauli: I cant do it...
Kale: What do we do sis?
Chanpa: Hey! listen up, try fusing! "demonstrates or tells them a unique way to fuse"
Goku: Oh yeah.. I remember the kids back on my universe could go SSj3 after they fused, you guys should try it.
Kefla: "goes SSJ3" oh shit.. this feels tingly![/spoiler]
Basically I have no problem if Kefla goes SSJ3, but if Cauli and Kale goes SSJ3 separately then yeah, that'll sting.

Except for the most part people were excited when they heard about Goku Black. It was only this site, which is filled with Negative Nancies, that treated the idea as absolutely terrible. The same with Kale and Cali fusion. Most like or are interesting idea. It's only this site that is overly negative.

[Ziegander]

Basically I have no problem if Kefla goes SSJ3, but if Cauli and Kale goes SSJ3 separately then yeah, that'll sting.

I just wonder why it bothers so many people so much.

I'll admit, the tingly back sensation being how Caulifla learned to go SSJ seemed like a massively insulting slap to the face and just remarkably, tremendously poor writing. HOWEVER, like I said, Goku was painfully weaker than these girls when he learned how to go SSJ3 and we have no idea what he went through to acquire the form, if anything. In base form, Goku had a power level of something like 20 million, maybe less even, when devised the SSJ3 form offscreen in otherworld. Caulifla has a power level in her base form in the billions. In fact, she is probably, literally, at least 1,000 times stronger in her base form than Goku was at the time. I suppose I could buy Kale having rather pathetic base power, even as low as someone like Master Roshi (hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if he could beat base Kale), but Caulifla and Cabba are extraordinarily powerful in their base forms compared to anything from Z, far stronger even than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku was without ever transforming into Super Saiyans. Caulifla and Cabba are probably like 100 to 200 times stronger in their Super Saiyan form than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku.

[namekiansaiyan]

Kafla going SS3 will just burn through energy quickly and the fusion will not last long. That means Frieza will have to wait less time to torutue them.

[HeroR]

Basically I have no problem if Kefla goes SSJ3, but if Cauli and Kale goes SSJ3 separately then yeah, that'll sting.

I just wonder why it bothers so many people so much.

I'll admit, the tingly back sensation being how Caulifla learned to go SSJ seemed like a massively insulting slap to the face and just remarkably, tremendously poor writing. HOWEVER, like I said, Goku was painfully weaker than these girls when he learned how to go SSJ3 and we have no idea what he went through to acquire the form, if anything. In base form, Goku had a power level of something like 20 million, maybe less even, when devised the SSJ3 form offscreen in otherworld. Caulifla has a power level in her base form in the billions. In fact, she is probably, literally, at least 1,000 times stronger in her base form than Goku was at the time. I suppose I could buy Kale having rather pathetic base power, even as low as someone like Master Roshi (hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if he could beat base Kale), but Caulifla and Cabba are extraordinarily powerful in their base forms compared to anything from Z, far stronger even than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku was without ever transforming into Super Saiyans. Caulifla and Cabba are probably like 100 to 200 times stronger in their Super Saiyan form than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku.

It was written very well. Cabba said you need anger to transformed the first time. Cali asked how about all the times after. Cabba explained you do by focusing on your back and you get a tingling feeling. Cali decides to skip the anger crap and got to step 2 and focused on her back. She gets Super Saiyan and Cabba is amazed that she didn't need anger.

It's straight forward and simple, but for reason people only remembers 'tingle in the back'. Not the writers' fault that certain viewers are dense.

Also, we have no clue how Super Saiyan 3 is achieved, so the rest is kind of assumption.

Kafla going SS3 will just burn through energy quickly and the fusion will not last long. That means Frieza will have to wait less time to torutue them.

Assuming that is the Fusion Dance and if Freeza isn't too busy playing with the Namekians.

[SansrivaaL]

I dont plan on repeating myself over and over why I think the tingly shit is a complete BS to me.

Kafla going SS3 will just burn through energy quickly and the fusion will not last long. That means Frieza will have to wait less time to torutue them.

For all we know maybe Freeza's still above Kafla

[Whatever]

Assuming that is the Fusion Dance and if Freeza isn't too busy playing with the Namekians.

What a nice guy Freeza is,he saved Gohan twice,saved Goku and gave him energy and now is gonna help his teamates against the U6 saiyans and namekians.
He is such a teamplayer,i wonder why Goku did not make him the leader.

[Michsi]

What a nice guy Freeza is,he saved Gohan twice,saved Goku and gave him energy and now is gonna help his teamates against the U6 saiyans and namekians.
He is such a teamplayer,i wonder why Goku did not make him the leader.

Vegeta would have never ever stopped screeching about it.

I'd say Vegeta is next in line to receive a helping hand from his former boss.