Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ahill1]

Look at the reaction of all; I doubt they would be so impressed with the power of Gotenks if he were weaker than the boys in Super Saiyan. You have Gotenks base to weaker than 18 !!! What is the logic in that?

[Kaboom]

The "logic" is that Gotenks is much stronger than either of the boys individually. Anything beyond that is arbitrary.

[Sayo-chan]

Goten - 10
Trunks - 11

Gotenks - 21
SSJ Goten - 500
SSJ Trunks - 550
SSJ Gotenks - 1050

Why exactly would Gotenks in his base form be stronger?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku said SS Gotenks would be enough to beat Fat Boo, which would mean fusion is more than addition.

[Sayo-chan]

I've only seen official sources stating it was addition. Do you have a citation that states otherwise?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I have character statements from the actual story.

[Doctor.]

Goku said SS Gotenks would be enough to beat Fat Boo, which would mean fusion is more than addition.

Goku's a math genius.

[Sayo-chan]

I have character statements from the actual story.

That doesn't really add anything to the discussion, especially considering Goku isn't exactly always right. Base Gotenks got effortlessly beaten, so whether or not SSJ Gotenks would have a chance at all is up for debate.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

"Goku's been wrong before so I can declare he's wrong here also"

How convenient.

If you're so insistent on an official source, http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 87#p701569

[Doctor.]

"Goku's been wrong before so I can declare he's wrong here also"

How convenient.

If you're so insistent on an official source, http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 87#p701569

The point here is that you're making a lot of assumptions. Assuming that Goku knows how to calculate Gotenks' power, assuming that Goku wasn't lying (when he lied in the same page to Piccolo about not being able to defeat Fat Boo), assuming Goku even knows how much power fusion gives, assuming that the amount of power fusion gives is equal to every fusee, assuming the Super Saiyan multipliers work the same way with fusion, etc.

I, too, do not think that fusion is just simple addition. But Goku's one line is not a solid argument.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Assuming that Goku knows how to calculate Gotenks' power

Aren't you assuming "calculating" is something hard to do? Or that Goku is incapable of?

We're shown Goku sensing the kids' Ki and then coming to the conclusion that they can beat Boo. What reason do we have to believe Goku is talking out of his ass? When it involves his wife's and 6 year old son's life?

assuming that Goku wasn't lying

More like assuming the author put the lines there to misread his leaders. What reason does Goku have to lie?

(when he lied in the same page to Piccolo about not being able to defeat Fat Boo)

I don't see why that has to be seen as a lie. He's unsure of Boo's Ki, it's like a lie. Goku only comes to the conclusion he could've beat Fat Boo after Fat Boo is gone.

assuming Goku even knows how much power fusion gives, assuming that the amount of power fusion gives is equal to every fusee

My point is, it's ridiculous to assume Goku has no clue what he's talking about and is risking all of his friends' lives, and it's even more ridiculous to think the author is misinforming the reader with several different lines.

assuming the Super Saiyan multipliers work the same way with fusion, etc.

That's something you made up... you'd need to prove that, not me.

[Sayo-chan]

"Goku's been wrong before so I can declare he's wrong here also"

How convenient.

If you're so insistent on an official source, http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 87#p701569

I didn't declare he's wrong, I said he could be wrong because he has a dodgy track record. How is that at all convenient? More over, I only asked for a citation because I'm unfamiliar with much of the related supplementary material and you got snarky, why?

With that said, even if we multiplied their battle powers together, it still wouldn't be enough. 10*11 = 110. Even if we decided to add them then multiply them again by 10, it'd only be 220. I don't see how it's at all unreasonable to see base Gotenks as weaker than SSJ Goten or Trunks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I didn't declare he's wrong, I said he could be wrong because he has a dodgy track record. How is that at all convenient?

In every instance a character's wrong, it's shown. In this instance with Goku it's never demonstrated to be wrong but only implied by multiple character statements/actions to be correct.

More over, I only asked for a citation because I'm unfamiliar with much of the related supplementary material and you got snarky, why?

That was my mistake, I misinterpreted your post. I apologize.

I don't see how it's at all unreasonable to see base Gotenks as weaker than SSJ Goten or Trunks.

I don't care if someone sees it like that, I just don't see a viable reason to believe SS Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo other than wanting to keep self-made battle powers minimalistic (this isn't aimed at you), or not liking Gotenks (again, not aimed specifically at you, that's usually what I see when debating this topic).

[Sayo-chan]

When it involves his wife's and 6 year old son's life?

Aside from the fact he's selfish and rarely shows thought or consideration for them, he also consistently risks everyone's lives for his own personal benefit. That's why he spared Vegeta and the Artificial Humans.

I don't see why that has to be seen as a lie. He's unsure of Boo's Ki, it's like a lie. Goku only comes to the conclusion he could've beat Fat Boo after Fat Boo is gone.

If he's unsure of Boo's ki, then wouldn't that mean he has no idea if Gotenks could actually beat him? How do you know when the precise moment he came to that conclusion would be, even if he could?

In every instance a character's wrong, it's shown. In this instance with Goku it's never demonstrated to be wrong but only implied by multiple character statements/actions to be correct.

Even if you could prove that, I don't see that as an indication of Goku being correct. The story itself has plot holes and inconsistencies, so I don't take everything at face value. Now, implied by what? Gotenks in his base form gets beaten easily. SSJ Gotenks is at least four times weaker than Evil Boo. That's all we know concerning actions. What other statements? Goku's? That's not enough to prove it.

I just don't see a viable reason to believe SS Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo

If Goku's statement is the only reason for it, then I don't see why the opposite is so hard to believe. The fusion multiplier has to be a lot more than just multiplication to even cut it close.

[LightBing]

Here's my power levels using the new scale. I've taken the numbers told by Mr.Toriyama and adapt it, since Super seems to follow BoG in all but small details. All numbers are of the characters in their strongest forms.

I gave a slight increase to Goku and Vegeta and a slight decrease to Gotenks and Gohan, from their strength at the end of the Buu Saga.

Super (As of episode 7)
Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Gohan - 2,34
Gotenks - 2,09
Goku - 1,53
Mr.Buu - 1,29
Vegeta - 1,26
Piccolo - 0,30

[Doctor.]

Here's my power levels using the new scale. I've taken the numbers told by Mr.Toriyama and adapt it, since Super seems to follow BoG in all but small details. All numbers are of the characters in their strongest forms.

I gave a slight increase to Goku and Vegeta and a slight decrease to Gotenks and Gohan, from their strength at the end of the Buu Saga.

Super (As of episode 7)
Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Gohan - 2,34
Gotenks - 2,09
Goku - 1,53
Mr.Buu - 1,29
Vegeta - 1,26
Piccolo - 0,30

I think your numbers are too high. I wouldn't put even Gohan close to 1. Where would you fit in Gotenks and Gohan Boo, and SS, SS2 and SS3 Vegetto?

[LightBing]

Here's my power levels using the new scale. I've taken the numbers told by Mr.Toriyama and adapt it, since Super seems to follow BoG in all but small details. All numbers are of the characters in their strongest forms.

I gave a slight increase to Goku and Vegeta and a slight decrease to Gotenks and Gohan, from their strength at the end of the Buu Saga.

Super (As of episode 7)
Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Gohan - 2,34
Gotenks - 2,09
Goku - 1,53
Mr.Buu - 1,29
Vegeta - 1,26
Piccolo - 0,30

I think you're numbers are too high. I wouldn't put even Gohan close to 1. Where would you fit in Gotenks and Gohan Boo, and SS, SS2 and SS3 Vegetto?

SSJ 2 and 3 Vegetto isn't much stronger than SSJ Vegetto, I believe. This following the statements of Mr.Toriyama were he said both forms are just power-up versions of SSJ and by the reducing multiplier of the SSGSSJ.

SSJ Vegetto 5,65
Gohan Boo 4,39
Gotenks Boo 4,14

[dbzfan7]

Here's my power levels using the new scale. I've taken the numbers told by Mr.Toriyama and adapt it, since Super seems to follow BoG in all but small details. All numbers are of the characters in their strongest forms.

I gave a slight increase to Goku and Vegeta and a slight decrease to Gotenks and Gohan, from their strength at the end of the Buu Saga.

Super (As of episode 7)
Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Gohan - 2,34
Gotenks - 2,09
Goku - 1,53
Mr.Buu - 1,29
Vegeta - 1,26
Piccolo - 0,30

The non gods I don't think should even be close to 1. Vegetto and GT is all I can see at least hitting a 1 or higher in comparison to Beerus, Whis, and the Gods. Also Gohan's too high. He should be like -10.

[Berserker1921]

Here's my power levels using the new scale. I've taken the numbers told by Mr.Toriyama and adapt it, since Super seems to follow BoG in all but small details. All numbers are of the characters in their strongest forms.

I gave a slight increase to Goku and Vegeta and a slight decrease to Gotenks and Gohan, from their strength at the end of the Buu Saga.

Super (As of episode 7)
Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Gohan - 2,34
Gotenks - 2,09
Goku - 1,53
Mr.Buu - 1,29
Vegeta - 1,26
Piccolo - 0,30

I agree to those stats. I don't know why everyone else thinks everyone is so low. I mean gt levels and possible ssj3 vegito would be near 5.2-5.6.

Dbs 1-15
Goku- 1.4
Vegeta- 2 (rage boost)
Gohan- 1.7
Gotenks- 1.5
Mr. Buu- 1.2
Piccolo- .5
18- .3
The rest are all way below that.

Dbgt 1-15

Ssj4 Goku - 4.2-5 (from baby saga to shadow dragon saga)
Ssj4 Vegeta - 4.2-5
Ssj gogeta - 10-12
Super 17- 5.2
Baby Vegeta - 4.5
Omega shenron - 7.5-9

(hypothetical)
Ssj2 Vegito- 4.8
Ssj3 Vegito - 5.8
Ssj4 Vegito - 15-16
Ssj God ssj Vegito -20-22
Ssj God ssj gogeta- 15-16
God Buu (dbm) - 4.8
Ssj5 Goku- 6
Ssj5 Vegeta - 6
Xicor- 6-6.5

[ahill1]

Goten - 10
Trunks - 11

Gotenks - 21
SSJ Goten - 500
SSJ Trunks - 550
SSJ Gotenks - 1050

Why exactly would Gotenks in his base form be stronger?

Too big the gap between Goten and Trunks; they must be really close.

Is ridiculous the fusion be just an addition; it would mean SSJ2 (boost) = Fusion (boost); neither should it be a multiplication, because if so Roshi/Roshi fusion > Vegeta(saiyan saga) - which is retarded.

What's your fusion theory?

Cannot be AxB - Roshi/Roshi > Vegeta????
Cannot be A+B - for obvious reasons

There are 3 fusions and it's important to find a formula that coincide with is implied in the history.