"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

The Toyotaro/Toriyama interview that comes with the fourth volume of the Super manga really has a lot of interesting tidbits:

- Future Trunks training in the Kaioshin realm and gaining healing powers, Vegeta gaining Super Saiyan God off-screen and several of the "twists and turns" leading up to Goku fighting Merged Zamasu were all Toyotaro's idea with Toriyama's supervision
- Toriyama approved most of Toyotaro's drafts for the Future Trunks arc the first time round
- Toriyama wants Toyotaro to tone down on how much he imitates how Toriyama used to Dragon Ball and to be more rough and less "careful" with how he draws fights
- The concept of Goku Black originated from Toriyama being inspired by "copies of the hero" characters like Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider from Kamen Rider Black
- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in Toriyama's original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?
- Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the original draft and two Super Saiyan Blue's (Goku and Vegeta) would have been able to handle him. So basically the anime staff chose to beef up Merged Zamasu's strength, so that beyond his immortality, he was a genuine threat in battle. While Merged Zamasu remained below the realm of SSJB in the manga, as originally intended in Toriyama's plot outline.

[MaskedRider]

- The concept of Goku Black originated from Toriyama being inspired by "copies of the hero" characters like Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider from Kamen Rider Black

I also want to add that in Kamen Rider Black there is a terrorist / cult organization that believes racial superiority over humanity... Toriyama really activating my almonds

[SansrivaaL]

So Toyo really does follow AT's outline more despite adding some shiz like Vegitto fanservice, shame on you Toei, you spicing up things too much.

[sintzu]

Caulifla and Kale acquire Super Saiyan easily just as Trunks and Goten did before them. I...don't see this being an issue.

It's an issue for a few reasons.

1- Goten was conceived after Goku reached Ssj and Trunks could've been as well due to Vegeta maybe reaching it early after F Trunks' warning so they could've inherited it from them.

2- We know half Saiyans have more potential than full blooded ones and they trained off screen with each other and their parents (Goten with Chichi and Trunks with Vegeta).

3- Everyone in-universe was very surprised about it and questioned it multiple times so it being out of place or surprising wasn't just to the viewers, it was an in-universe plot point as well.

Everyone was surprised about Kale but Caulifla got those forms because she wanted them, she didn't have to get mad, she didn't train hard or anything else. Cabba told her about them and boom, she's a Ssj1, minutes later a Ssj2 and a Day later managed to use the mucsle forms.

[Kinokima]

- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in Toriyama's original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?

This makes me think we may not see Vegetto again anytime soon.

[namekiansaiyan]

Who else thinks Kafla has come from Toyotaro?

[SansrivaaL]

I dont think we'll ever get to see Vegetto again at all, Toyo/Toei took it upon themselves to even add up a BS retcon when mortals fuse via potara's that it has a time limit.
Now I want another interview but this time about the ToP, if UI was his idea and who did Kale and was that tingly bs with Cauli jumping saiyan from to saiyan form all his idea or Toyo's (probably Toyo's to fulfill fan expectations again, yknow, female SSJ's!)

[HeroR]

I dont think we'll ever get to see Vegetto again at all, Toyo/Toei took it upon themselves to even add up a BS retcon when mortals fuse via potara's that it has a time limit.
Now I want another interview but this time about the ToP, if UI was his idea and who did Kale and was that tingly bs with Cauli jumping saiyan from to saiyan form all his idea or Toyo's (probably Toyo's to fulfill fan expectations again, yknow, female SSJ's!)

Toriyama created the retcon actually. Toyo only suggested Vegetto.

[Kanassa]

I dont think we'll ever get to see Vegetto again at all, Toyo/Toei took it upon themselves to even add up a BS retcon when mortals fuse via potara's that it has a time limit.

Toriyama added the retcon, with Vegetto not even originally supposed to be in that arc.

[Noah]

- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in Toriyama's original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?

If Vegetto was just a mere fan service, why not use Gogeta then? Did he really need to retcon the Potara fusion for him to appear and not stay long? Damn it, Toyotaro! What a fanboy

[HeroR]

So Toyo really does follow AT's outline more despite adding some shiz like Vegitto fanservice, shame on you Toei, you spicing up things too much.

How did you get Toyo follows the outline more than the anime? Especially since Toyo outright said a lot of the twists was his idea along with Trunks being a healer/Supreme Kai in training, and Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

[SansrivaaL]

Toriyama added the retcon, with Vegetto not even originally supposed to be in that arc.

Toriyama created the retcon actually. Toyo only suggested Vegetto.

"But he didnt intend to have Vegetto pop out at all, so he was forced to make a reason for them defusing again, if Toyo/Toei didnt pressure him about meeting fan expectations then the whole thing wouldnt have happened" is basically what I'm trying to say.

How did you get Toyo follows the outline more than the anime? Especially since Toyo outright said a lot of the twists was his idea along with Trunks being a healer/Supreme Kai in training, and Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

About how the ending and their levels would have been originally, Toyo followed up the original idea that Meged Zamasu can be handled by SSJB's, hence Goku actually able to go toe to toe with him, unlike the anime where they're leagues apart, Toyo followed up how the climax battle should have went (most likely) while Toei not only made Merged Zamasu OP as hell but also Black alone could have wiped the floor with them, I'm still weirded out to why they needed to fuse when Black had it all under control but whatever.

[TheMikado]

So it basically reveals what we’ve been saying all along... Toriyama really isn’t very “thick” at all...

[HeroR]

Toriyama added the retcon, with Vegetto not even originally supposed to be in that arc.

Toriyama created the retcon actually. Toyo only suggested Vegetto.

"But he didnt intend to have Vegetto pop out at all, so he was forced to make a reason for them defusing again, if Toyo/Toei didnt pressure him about meeting fan expectations then the whole thing wouldnt have happened" is basically what I'm trying to say.

Toriyama wasn’t forced to do anything. He could have easily said no or Goku and Vegeta defused using the Namekians Dragon Balls.

Trying to say he was ‘pressured’ is just silly since Toriyama has ignored suggestings in the past.

About how the ending and their levels would have been originally, Toyo followed up the original idea that Meged Zamasu can be handled by SSJB's, hence Goku actually able to go toe to toe with him, unlike the anime where they're leagues apart, Toyo followed up how the climax battle should have went (most likely) while Toei not only made Merged Zamasu OP as hell but also Black alone could have wiped the floor with them, I'm still weirded out to why they needed to fuse when Black had it all under control but whatever.

Even in the manga Merged Zamasu beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta in Blue. Goku had to used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that could have broken his body, just to be even.

Black fused since he was done messing around and for all Merged Zamasu’s faults, he was still stronger than Black by a large margin.

[SansrivaaL]

Toriyama wasn’t forced to do anything. He could have easily said no or Goku and Vegeta defused using the Namekians Dragon Balls.

Trying to say he was ‘pressured’ is just silly since Toriyama has ignored suggestings in the past b

Yes he was, they told him they wanted to meet the fans expectations, it was never his idea to have Vegetto come out, so he was forced to create a reason for them to defuse.

That was in the past, he was fine with it yes, my point still stands that it was never his idea nor was his intention, they gave him the idea so he was forced to make a reason to have Goku and Vegeta defuse again, hence the retcon.

Even in the manga Merged Zamasu beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta in Blue. Goku had to used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that could have broken his body, just to be even.

Black fused since he was done messing around and for all Merged Zamasu’s faults, he was still stronger than Black by a large margin.

Are you serious with this right now? Mastered SSJB IS SSJB, wth man its not a different form, its them just able to master the form, its literally still blue.

[Big Black Sayian]

So Toyo really does follow AT's outline more despite adding some shiz like Vegitto fanservice, shame on you Toei, you spicing up things too much.

If Toyo suggested Vegito doesn't that mean Toei is following his outline? :p

[HeroR]

Toriyama wasn’t forced to do anything. He could have easily said no or Goku and Vegeta defused using the Namekians Dragon Balls.

Trying to say he was ‘pressured’ is just silly since Toriyama has ignored suggestings in the past b

Yes he was, they told him they wanted to meet the fans expectations, it was never his idea to have Vegetto come out, so he was forced to create a reason for them to defuse.

That was in the past, he was fine with it yes, my point still stands that it was never his idea nor was his intention, they gave him the idea so he was forced to make a reason to have Goku and Vegeta defuse again, hence the retcon.

Toriyama has decided not to do fan expections several times. He just decided to in this case. Stop treating Toriyama like some frail old man that Toyo and Toei bullied into making Vegetto Blue.

He didn’t need the retcon since we saw a fusion undone by the Dragon Balls with Kibito-Kai. He added the retcon because he wanted to, not because he was forced.

[HeroR]

Toriyama wasn’t forced to do anything. He could have easily said no or Goku and Vegeta defused using the Namekians Dragon Balls.

Trying to say he was ‘pressured’ is just silly since Toriyama has ignored suggestings in the past b

Yes he was, they told him they wanted to meet the fans expectations, it was never his idea to have Vegetto come out, so he was forced to create a reason for them to defuse.

That was in the past, he was fine with it yes, my point still stands that it was never his idea nor was his intention, they gave him the idea so he was forced to make a reason to have Goku and Vegeta defuse again, hence the retcon.

Even in the manga Merged Zamasu beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta in Blue. Goku had to used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that could have broken his body, just to be even.

Black fused since he was done messing around and for all Merged Zamasu’s faults, he was still stronger than Black by a large margin.

Are you serious with this right now? Mastered SSJB IS SSJB, wth man its not a different form, its them just able to master the form, its literally still blue.

The manga itself treats it like a different form. It’s closer to the Kaioken than just Blue.

The point, Merged Zamasu was made stronger in both Medias compared to where he was originally since Vegetto was needed.

So it basically reveals what we’ve been saying all along... Toriyama really isn’t very “thick” at all...

The opposite since he reads and approves everything. He just also takes suggestings if he agrees with them. It’s no different than his form and current editors changing the Android Saga.

[SansrivaaL]

Toriyama has decided not to do fan expections several times. He just decided to in this case. Stop treating Toriyama like some frail old man that Toyo and Toei bullied into making Vegetto Blue.

He didn’t need the retcon since we saw a fusion undone by the Dragon Balls with Kibito-Kai. He added the retcon because he wanted to, not because he was forced.

Why do you keep putting out his past when people literally change, that was before but now where his outlines are barebones he's most likely fine with what they can give just to fill it up.

So? do you expect them to call the dragon balls and defuse them while fighting MZamasu? he clearly didnt want the fight to end with Vegetto V MZamasu so he had to create a retcon to have them defuse while fighting, not after.

The manga itself treats it like a different form. It’s closer to the Kaioken than just Blue.

The point, Merged Zamasu was made stronger in both Medias compared to where he was originally since Vegetto was needed.

No it does not, thats your own point of view, its not a different form, it never was.

No he was not, MZamasu can be handled by SSJB, its literally written there, hence why Goku was able to go toe to toe with him.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama wasn’t forced to do anything. He could have easily said no or Goku and Vegeta defused using the Namekians Dragon Balls.

Trying to say he was ‘pressured’ is just silly since Toriyama has ignored suggestings in the past b

Yes he was, they told him they wanted to meet the fans expectations, it was never his idea to have Vegetto come out, so he was forced to create a reason for them to defuse.

That was in the past, he was fine with it yes, my point still stands that it was never his idea nor was his intention, they gave him the idea so he was forced to make a reason to have Goku and Vegeta defuse again, hence the retcon.

Even in the manga Merged Zamasu beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta in Blue. Goku had to used Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that could have broken his body, just to be even.

Black fused since he was done messing around and for all Merged Zamasu’s faults, he was still stronger than Black by a large margin.

Are you serious with this right now? Mastered SSJB IS SSJB, wth man its not a different form, its them just able to master the form, its literally still blue.

The manga itself treats it like a different form. It’s closer to the Kaioken than just Blue.

The point, Merged Zamasu was made stronger in both Medias compared to where he was originally since Vegetto was needed.

So it basically reveals what we’ve been saying all along... Toriyama really isn’t very “thick” at all...

The opposite since he reads and approves everything. He just also takes suggestings if he agrees with them. It’s no different than his form and current editors changing the Android Saga.

Nah this is 100% different Toriyama isnt writing a damn sentence of the anime not a single frame of it. Don’t even try it. He’s writing bullet points and the only evidence is of what he “checks” is presented through the manga interviews.
Further the only reason Vegetto was needed on the manga was because he was immortal. Goku and Vegeta were giving even merged Zamasu a hard time.