"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Great interview! It's nice to get a good idea of just how much Toyotaro came up with and how they worked together. Of course I'd have liked them to go more in depth with all the twists and turns Toyotaro supposedly came up with prior to the final fight.. possibly Shin and Gowasu's involvement?
A shame we strangely didn't get Toriyama's thoughts about Trunks and Mai and what happened to the rest of the Pilaf Gang! Would have been nice..
Also I wish we got Toriyama's thoughts on the anime. Probably the manga interviews aren't the platform for that, but we don't get Toriyama talks in anything anime related media. Time for new guidebooks then!

[HeroR]

Toriyama has decided not to do fan expections several times. He just decided to in this case. Stop treating Toriyama like some frail old man that Toyo and Toei bullied into making Vegetto Blue.

He didn’t need the retcon since we saw a fusion undone by the Dragon Balls with Kibito-Kai. He added the retcon because he wanted to, not because he was forced.

Why do you keep putting out his past when people literally change, that was before but now where his outlines are barebones he's most likely fine with what they can give just to fill it up.

So? do you expect them to call the dragon balls and defuse them while fighting MZamasu? he clearly didnt want the fight to end with Vegetto V MZamasu so he had to create a retcon to have them defuse while fighting, not after.

The manga itself treats it like a different form. It’s closer to the Kaioken than just Blue.

The point, Merged Zamasu was made stronger in both Medias compared to where he was originally since Vegetto was needed.

No it does not, thats your own point of view, its not a different form, it never was.

No he was not, MZamasu can be handled by SSJB, its literally written there, hence why Goku was able to go toe to toe with him.

Because you’re jumping to assumions that Toriyama was forced to add Vegetto, instead of it being a suggesting from Toyo that Toriyama agreed to. And Toriyama could have kept Vegetto around by making him stronger. If he didn’t want that, then he created the retcon himself. No force.

Goku had to used an evolved version of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to do anything and he barely matched it. This is after Merged Zamasu best the shit out of both Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta at the same time.

[HeroR]

Yes he was, they told him they wanted to meet the fans expectations, it was never his idea to have Vegetto come out, so he was forced to create a reason for them to defuse.

That was in the past, he was fine with it yes, my point still stands that it was never his idea nor was his intention, they gave him the idea so he was forced to make a reason to have Goku and Vegeta defuse again, hence the retcon.


Are you serious with this right now? Mastered SSJB IS SSJB, wth man its not a different form, its them just able to master the form, its literally still blue.

The manga itself treats it like a different form. It’s closer to the Kaioken than just Blue.

The point, Merged Zamasu was made stronger in both Medias compared to where he was originally since Vegetto was needed.

So it basically reveals what we’ve been saying all along... Toriyama really isn’t very “thick” at all...

The opposite since he reads and approves everything. He just also takes suggestings if he agrees with them. It’s no different than his form and current editors changing the Android Saga.

Nah this is 100% different Toriyama isnt writing a damn sentence of the anime not a single frame of it. Don’t even try it. He’s writing bullet points and the only evidence is of what he “checks” is presented through the manga interviews.
Further the only reason Vegetto was needed on the manga was because he was immortal. Goku and Vegeta were giving even merged Zamasu a hard time.

He approves and make corrections when needed. So he is ‘in the thick of things’. This is also an interview about the manga, so there isn’t anything about the anime.

And again, Merged Zamasu beat the shit out of both Vegeta and Goku in Blue with power. Not just immortality.

[SansrivaaL]

Because you’re jumping to assumions that Toriyama was forced to add Vegetto, instead of it being a suggesting from Toyo that Toriyama agreed to. And Toriyama could have kept Vegetto around by making him stronger. If he didn’t want that, then he created the retcon himself. No force.

Goku had to used an evolved version of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to do anything and he barely matched it. This is after Merged Zamasu best the shit out of both Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta at the same time.

Its not an assumption, its literally written there, Vegito poppin out was NOT his idea, you're taking the word "forced" in a negative light too much. Try to understand this, Vegito was NOT supposed to appear at all, it wasnt his idea to have him come out, but because Toyo/Toei wanted to meet fans expectations he went along with it and was forced to create a retcon to have them defuse mid battle because he didnt want the ending to be MZamasu V Vegito as he clearly wanted Trunks to deal the presumed finishing blow, not Vegeto.

Yeah which is still considered SSJB, I dont see where you're trying to go with this.

[HeroR]

Its not an assumption, its literally written there, Vegito poppin out was NOT his idea, you're taking the word "forced" in a negative light too much. Try to understand this, Vegito was NOT supposed to appear at all, it wasnt his idea to have him come out, but because Toyo/Toei wanted to meet fans expectations he went along with it and was forced to create a retcon to have them defuse mid battle because he didnt want the ending to be MZamasu V Vegito as he clearly wanted Trunks to deal the presumed finishing blow, not Vegeto.

Yeah which is still considered SSJB, I dont see where you're trying to go with this.

It was not his original idea, but he agreed to it and made it his own. Not forced into it as you keep pushing. Also, he could have written a situation where Trunks got the final blow and still kept Vegetto. He could of have it that Merged Zamasu badly injured Vegetto, but was heavily wounded himself or his time was almost up, then Trunks steps in and finish it.

Cell was not suppose to appear. He did and the rest is history. This is no different.

It really isn’t the same, especially since Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a giant power leap over normal Blue and really isn’t Toriyama’s ‘Goku and Vegeta in just Blue could beat Merged Zamasu’. Toyo had to literally rewrite how Blue worked.

[Michsi]

What I got from this is that the formulation faze of an arc is more or less a group effort. Toriyama, Toyo and Toei staff probably meet to brainstorm and discuss ideas, and Toriyama decides what stays and what goes.

Concerning the Vegetto part - is it really any different than all those times his editors gave him suggestions about this and that? Like changing the main villain of an arc, which is a pretty big deal. We already know Toriyama can put his foot down when he really doesn't want something.

[HeroR]

What I got from this is that the formulation faze of an arc is more or less a group effort. Toriyama, Toyo and Toei staff probably meet to brainstorm and discuss ideas, and Toriyama decides what stays and what goes.

Concerning the Vegetto part - is it really any different than all those times his editors gave him suggestions about this and that? Like changing the main villain of an arc, which is a pretty big deal. We already know Toriyama can put his foot down when he really doesn't want something.

That is my take as well. I said a long time ago that Super is a collaboration of Toriyama, Toei, and Toyo as of late. Much like Battle of Gods was a collaboration of Toei and Toriyama.

[SansrivaaL]

It was not his original idea, but he agreed to it and made it his own. Not forced into it as you keep pushing. Also, he could have written a situation where Trunks got the final blow and still kept Vegetto. He could of have it that Merged Zamasu badly injured Vegetto, but was heavily wounded himself or his time was almost up, then Trunks steps in and finish it.

Cell was not suppose to appear. He did and the rest is history. This is no different.

It really isn’t the same, especially since Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a giant power leap over normal Blue and really isn’t Toriyama’s ‘Goku and Vegeta in just Blue could beat Merged Zamasu’. Toyo had to literally rewrite how Blue worked.

Vegito wasnt his idea, it was Toyo/Toei's, meaning he was forced to create a point where they would defuse in the middle because he wanted Trunks to be the one to slice MZamasu up and end him until the twist (if Trunks slicing MZamasu was part of his outline) and now you're playing author, dont know how many times I'm gonna need to repeat this.

It is the same, nothing was pointed out that it was different, its literally just SSJB mastered version the same way how Goku mastered SSJ back in Cell arc.

[HeroR]

It was not his original idea, but he agreed to it and made it his own. Not forced into it as you keep pushing. Also, he could have written a situation where Trunks got the final blow and still kept Vegetto. He could of have it that Merged Zamasu badly injured Vegetto, but was heavily wounded himself or his time was almost up, then Trunks steps in and finish it.

Cell was not suppose to appear. He did and the rest is history. This is no different.

It really isn’t the same, especially since Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a giant power leap over normal Blue and really isn’t Toriyama’s ‘Goku and Vegeta in just Blue could beat Merged Zamasu’. Toyo had to literally rewrite how Blue worked.

Vegito wasnt his idea, it was Toyo/Toei's, meaning he was forced to create a point where they would defuse in the middle because he wanted Trunks to be the one to slice MZamasu up and end him until the twist (if Trunks slicing MZamasu was part of his outline) and now you're playing author, dont know how many times I'm gonna need to repeat this.

It is the same, nothing was pointed out that it was different, its literally just SSJB mastered version the same way how Goku mastered SSJ back in Cell arc.

It was a suggestion from Toyo and he made it his own. He wasn’t force to do anything since he could say no or rewrote the ending without the retcon. That’s just how he decided to it. You’re the one acting like there was only one way for Toriyama to write things and that was with a retcon.

It isn’t really the same for the reasons I named. When Vegeta did it against Whis, Whis noted ‘he has the same form as Goku’. Meaning even the manga itself treats it as a different form.

It isn’t the same as Mastered Super Saiyan since Mastered Super Saiyan is only more energy efficient and not a power boost.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So Toyo really does follow AT's outline more despite adding some shiz like Vegitto fanservice, shame on you Toei, you spicing up things too much.

If Toyo suggested Vegito doesn't that mean Toei is following his outline? :p

I'm not sure Toyo even came up with Vegetto, he said with the Trunks arc Toei were sending him stuff back and he wasn't involved much, and the way Herms described it it seems more to me Toyo liked the idea and advocated it as well.

Toriyama added the retcon, with Vegetto not even originally supposed to be in that arc.

Toriyama created the retcon actually. Toyo only suggested Vegetto.

"But he didnt intend to have Vegetto pop out at all, so he was forced to make a reason for them defusing again, if Toyo/Toei didnt pressure him about meeting fan expectations then the whole thing wouldnt have happened" is basically what I'm trying to say.

Toriyama wasn’t forced to do anything. He could have easily said no or Goku and Vegeta defused using the Namekians Dragon Balls.

Trying to say he was ‘pressured’ is just silly since Toriyama has ignored suggestings in the past.

This so much this. It's like people saying Toei forced him to make an evil Goku because all he said was he made this arc based on a suggestion. Apparently around these parts suggestion= being tied to chair and black mailed against their will!

Someone suggested something to him he liked it and then outlined it. Simple. No different to his Manga days where he undoubtedly must have gotten a lot of suggestions from his editors.

Furthermore Toriyama's outline IS NOT THE SOURCE MATERIAL it is just that an OUTLINE. So what even if the big deal?

[perucho1990]

The best thing Toei has done is killing the "DBS is the Goku and Vegeta show" meme by having Trunks fight Merged Zamasu in the "Final Showdown". It was Trunks Arc and made sense he was the one fighting Merged Zamasu and not Goku, Toei didnt have a problem making Goku look like a side character.

[The gr]

If Vegetto was just a mere fan service, why not use Gogeta then? Did he really need to retcon the Potara fusion for him to appear and not stay long? Damn it, Toyotaro! What a fanboy

He didn't come up with the retcon,it was just only adding vegetto to the mix.How is he a fanboy,hell bringing gogeta sound like a bigger fan service than vegetto and i guess they retcon because it was too op

[Noah]

What I got from this is that the formulation faze of an arc is more or less a group effort. Toriyama, Toyo and Toei staff probably meet to brainstorm and discuss ideas, and Toriyama decides what stays and what goes.

Probably, but I don't think Toriyama decides often what stays and what goes, I think most times he is satisfied with either decision be on Toyotaro or Toei.

He didn't come up with the retcon,it was just only adding vegetto to the mix.How is he a fanboy,hell bringing gogeta sound like a bigger fan service than vegetto and i guess they retcon because it was too op

It was his idea, so he came up with this retcon, right? Sure, it would still be the same fan service, but without needing to change anything. Merged Zamasu was intended to be below SSJB level, so Gogeta would be enough to deal with him as he is weaker than Vegetto.

[The gr]

It was his idea, so he came up with this retcon, right? Sure, it would still be the same fan service, but without needing to change anything. Merged Zamasu was intended to be below SSJB level, so Gogeta would be enough to deal with him as he is weaker than Vegetto.

The retcon was not even mention,only adding vegetoo was his idea,i guess he use vegetto instead of gogeta because the kaioshin were standing there with a fine set of potara and he is simply popular than gogeta.

[HeroR]

It was his idea, so he came up with this retcon, right? Sure, it would still be the same fan service, but without needing to change anything. Merged Zamasu was intended to be below SSJB level, so Gogeta would be enough to deal with him as he is weaker than Vegetto.

The retcon was not even mention,only adding vegetoo was his idea,i guess he use vegetto instead of gogeta because the kaioshin were standing there with a fine set of potara and he is simply popular than gogeta.

The retcon was Toriyama. Toyo only suggested Vegetto.

[Cetra]

So the fusion of an insane powerful SSJB, named SSJR Black and a guy that still is not Mr. Satan was supposed to be weaker than SSJB? Thank you Toei for having your own writers.

[The gr]

So the fusion of an insane powerful SSJB, named SSJR Black and a guy that still is not Mr. Satan was supposed to be weaker than SSJB? Thank you Toei for having your own writers.

Is weird because in both version SSR is ssb tier if anything so i don't how mz would be weak because of that.

[HeroR]

So the fusion of an insane powerful SSJB, named SSJR Black and a guy that still is not Mr. Satan was supposed to be weaker than SSJB? Thank you Toei for having your own writers.

Even if we assumed Future Zamasu was really weak, Merged Zamasu should still be beyond Goku and Vegeta since the fusion of Goku and Vegeta smashed absorbed Super Buu when Goku and Vegeta together were ants, and Black should be within their power range.

[Noah]

The retcon was not even mention,only adding vegetoo was his idea,i guess he use vegetto instead of gogeta because the kaioshin were standing there with a fine set of potara and he is simply popular than gogeta.

The retcon makes no sense, I mean they could use the same excuse to have Shin and Kibito defused again (Dragon Balls), we could even have some casual Vegetto moments later, but I guess a fusion shouldn't get the main kill of the arc in this series for whatever the reason, right? It's a mere fanservice that kinda damages the story for me.

[The gr]

The retcon makes no sense, I mean they could use the same excuse to have Shin and Kibito defused again (Dragon Balls), we could even have some casual Vegetto moments later, but I guess a fusion shouldn't get the main kill of the arc in this series for whatever the reason, right? It's a mere fanservice that kinda damages the story for me.

Well a retcon is a retcon,it was bound to happen sooner or later,i will admit having potara time limit make it less special in comparison to the fusion dance