DBZ: English VS Japanese

[VegettoEX]

Second of all, *deep breath* how bad is the dub really? Did it rearrange the order of scenes just so it could change the plot? Did it change the entire reason why the storyline was happening? Yes, I realize that certain things were glossed over or simplified, or completely omitted entirely, but just seriously think about it without letting which "side" you're on affect what you think your viewpoint should already be. How big of a deal were these changes in the first place? What did they truly amount to in the end?

A turd is a turd is a turd. Just because it's less smelly than another turd doesn't mean it's not a turd. You do this constantly -- don't toss red herrings into the mix.

Vegeta is still an annoying, arrogant asshole who seems to always be mad at people

I didn't need to go any further than this to find an interpretation of a character I wholly disagree with.

[jjgp1112]

Vegeta is still an annoying, arrogant asshole who seems to always be mad at people

I didn't need to go any further than this to find an interpretation of a character I wholly disagree with.

I got this interpretation mostly from watching the movie fansubs and reading the manga. Almost everything from DBZ that I saw pre-2003 was seen through a "OMFG IT'S DBZ! PEOPLE FIGHTING RLIYHBGGRLKGBYHERLAKGHYBRKJYVGEFAITUJVG!!!111!!!!" lens so I never really picked up on shit when I first watched the Funi dub unless it was really out in the open.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't think it's fair to make the argument, "It's not as bad as _____." That's not to say I don't think such comparisons aren't worth making. I'm just saying it doesn't seem like a very good standard-bearer. Yes. A lot of dubs have been bad, at least from the perspective of totally changing things. But is that really the only standard you need? It's not as bad as Robotech or the 4Kids One Piece? I'm sorry, but that's not enough for me to give it a pass, not nearly enough.

And I guess I'll go ahead and weigh in on why I oftentimes don't think the English version can be called the same thing as the original. Well, first of all, any dub is different. It's an adaptation, and it's not the same thing no matter how good it is. But I'll ignore that for a second. Yes, while a lot of material is changed, the overall story is by and large the same. But story is not all there is to it, especially not in a film-based medium. The editing (and I'm referring to the way material is put together, not whether something is "edited" out or not), the dialogue, the music, the performances (spirit of or intent of; I don't necessarily mean to say that just because it's not the Japanese cast, it's different... although, come to think of it, I do actually believe that) all contribute to the way a product is percieved. And at certain (large) points during the dubbing of Z at least every single one of those things were changed. And there is no point during Z that none of those things aren't affected.

To compare, if it was just the vague story that mattered, I could have just read Hoffman's summaries and be done with it. In fact, that was how I was introduced to a large portion of the series, and the presentation made it an entirely different experience for me. There are a lot of things I imagined that I am still nostalgic for just because it was how I was introduced to it.

[Corporate_Nothing]

Going from the Japanese version to the dub is like going to McDonald's and then going to Burger King. Sure the fries are crunchier, the actual store is set up differently, they have chicken tenders instead of Chicken McNuggets, and the burgers may or may not be better, but you know that you're most likely going to get the same shit you get at Burger King that you get at McDonald's - you go to both places for the exact same food, just with a different setting and a slightly different menu to choose from, and the food itself may be cooked differently. But they're still fast food restaurants and you go to them for the exact same purpose. Your mileage may vary, of course. It just depends on how important these changes really are to you as an individual.

Mhmm. But don't sell me a Big Mac and call it a Whopper. Acknowledge that both items, though they may provide a similar subjective level of satisfaction depending on your taste in hamburgers, and will both certainly result in a bowel movement (and hypertension), are still different, and if I decide I want a Whopper instead, kindly point me in the direction of the nearest Burger King and let me go about my merry way.

This extended metaphor is still flawed, though, because Funimation's dub would be the equivalent of a novice, inexperienced cook downloading a recipe for a Japanese dish online, with the intent of adding extra ingredients and removing others for the sake of making it more American, and taking other "creative liberties" while preparing his altered, adapted dish. Now, it might taste okay in its own right, millions of people might love it way more than the original Japanese dish; hell, most people probably wouldn't even be aware than an original Japanese dish existed, and even if they did, they likely wouldn't care enough to ever give it a chance anyway. The fact remains that his dish would be an interpretation, an adaption, an altered American version of what was originally a much different Japanese product.

I am aware of how broken and poorly worded my metaphor is, but I think I got my point across.

[penguintruth]

Hey guys, I hear getting punched in the stomach is less painful than getting kicked hard in the junk.

Don't see the relevance? Think about it.

[Corporate_Nothing]

Hey guys, I hear getting punched in the stomach is less painful than getting kicked hard in the junk.

Don't see the relevance? Think about it.

Getting kicked directly in the taint hurts much worse than either of those options.

Don't see the relevance? Think about it.

[jjgp1112]

Umm...guys...

The reason why I brought that up in the first place is because you put the dub at the level of certain worse dubs in the first place, when it really isn't. I'd say it's changed enough to enough of a level that really just depends on how much you tolerate certain changes. Do you think changes, no matter how minor they are, are bad? Then the dub's not for you. If really minor changes don't matter for you, then you won't have a problem with a dub. And given that, people from both sides need to realize people's reasons for thinking a certain way instead of forcing their viewpoint on others and coming up with their own reasons behind other people's viewpoints, like, "Oh, you just saw that first," or, "Oh, you're just blinded by what you like."

[Cipher]

Yikes, this went downhill fast.

Decent points brought up by both sides, as well as some not-so-decent ones. I haven't really revised my opinion that the dub and Japanese version aren't egregiously different, although I suppose your mileage may vary on what you consider different enough to wholly separate.

Either way, the level of deterioration as of the last page or so doesn't help. I don't really know what more I could possibly add with out readdressing earlier points though.

[Corporate_Nothing]

Umm...guys...

The reason why I brought that up in the first place is because you put the dub at the level of certain worse dubs in the first place, when it really isn't. I'd say it's changed enough to enough of a level that really just depends on how much you tolerate certain changes. Do you think changes, no matter how minor they are, are bad? Then the dub's not for you. If really minor changes don't matter for you, then you won't have a problem with a dub. And given that, people from both sides need to realize people's reasons for thinking a certain way instead of forcing their viewpoint on others and coming up with their own reasons behind other people's viewpoints, like, "Oh, you just saw that first," or, "Oh, you're just blinded by what you like."

If it makes you feel any better, I generally agree with the first post you made in this thread. It does no good for sub fans to completely scorn any dub as untrue, evil, and heretic in nature, and it does a great injustice to Dragon Ball when supporters of the dub completely shun and disregard the original Japanese version as if it never happened. Any dub with always be an altered adaptation of the source material (although the degree of changes will vary from dub to dub), but that doesn't mean any dub is completely devoid of any redeeming qualities and should be avoided at all costs.

Like Mike has pointed it out in a few of the podcast I've listened to recently, everyone comes into an argument with their own biases and subjective experiences as the basis for their opinions, and the only way to be completely transparent and fair in any discussion is to be honest and candid about where your allegiances and loyalties lie before stating your case. I was introduced to the series through Funimation's dub; I almost exclusively watched the dub until around 2001 or 2002 when I bought a few uncut bilingual DVD releases of the movies. Around that time, I started growing generally fatigued with the generally cheesy and overdone tone of the dub, but rather than hunt down all of the bilingual DVD singles (I was 12, how was I supposed to afford paying $50 every month for six episodes??). So I gave up on the series for the most part until the release of the UUE, followed by season sets, and now the Dragon Boxes, the middle and latter of which are WAY more affordable than the old dvd singles. I recognize that, while Funi's dub is, at times, a passable, enjoyable interpretation of the original Japanese version, I'd rather experience the series as close to the original version as possible...within reason. I can't kill myself and reincarnate as a male, Japanese adolescent watching DBZ for the first time on television, but I can at least get close to that by watching a well-translated, subtitled version of the original Japanese version.

Different intracranial hemorrhages for different folks, I guess.

[linkdude20002001]

Umm...guys...

The reason why I brought that up in the first place is because you put the dub at the level of certain worse dubs in the first place, when it really isn't. I'd say it's changed enough to enough of a level that really just depends on how much you tolerate certain changes. Do you think changes, no matter how minor they are, are bad? Then the dub's not for you. If really minor changes don't matter for you, then you won't have a problem with a dub. And given that, people from both sides need to realize people's reasons for thinking a certain way instead of forcing their viewpoint on others and coming up with their own reasons behind other people's viewpoints, like, "Oh, you just saw that first," or, "Oh, you're just blinded by what you like."

It's not about whether or not a change is "bad"... I thought we were discussing why the dub is different. Changes makes something different, and since the dub has changes, it is different. Why else would there be debates over whether the dub is best or vise versa? And why is it that you see them as the same when even FUNi says they're different? They've been saying that since 1998 in fact.

[jjgp1112]

Umm...guys...

The reason why I brought that up in the first place is because you put the dub at the level of certain worse dubs in the first place, when it really isn't. I'd say it's changed enough to enough of a level that really just depends on how much you tolerate certain changes. Do you think changes, no matter how minor they are, are bad? Then the dub's not for you. If really minor changes don't matter for you, then you won't have a problem with a dub. And given that, people from both sides need to realize people's reasons for thinking a certain way instead of forcing their viewpoint on others and coming up with their own reasons behind other people's viewpoints, like, "Oh, you just saw that first," or, "Oh, you're just blinded by what you like."

It's not about whether or not a change is "bad"... I thought we were discussing why the dub is different. Changes makes something different, and since the dub has changes, it is different. Why else would there be debates over whether the dub is best or vise versa? And why is it that you see them as the same when even FUNi says they're different? They've been saying that since 1998 in fact.

I feel like we're going in circles again, but...shouldn't you also take into account to what degree something is changed? Just because something is different doesn't mean it is instantly beyond recognition unless it's actually different to a significant degree.

[penguintruth]

Aside from the aforementioned 4Kids dubs, I really can't think of too many worse dubs than DBZ.

I mean, for instance, the AnimEigo Bubblegum Crisis dub. It's bad. Wooden acting throughout. But it's script is pretty accurate, and it doesn't try to dumb down the material. This is still what I would consider a bad dub, though, because of the awful acting. In my mind, this dub is still better than DBZ's.

[linkdude20002001]

I feel like we're going in circles again, but...shouldn't you also take into account to what degree something is changed? Just because something is different doesn't mean it is instantly beyond recognition unless it's actually different to a significant degree.

Well, I am taking into account the degree of the changes. Overall, the changes add up to something big. And even if you take them piece by piece, the script alone is a huge difference; it's like they wrote the entire script based on only what was going on in the video, and an episode description. The script is what makes the show. It's not the only thing, but it's still a significant part.

[Kaboom]

I think I'm going to put an end to this thread before it goes any more downhill.

But, I'm going to finish it by laying down some simple facts and a message. Some of you may not like it, and some may even get angry about it. But please try to resist throwing a fit until you finish reading further (not that it'll matter since I'm locking the thread with this post anyway).


The English dub of DragonBall Z as presented by FUNimation is a bad dub.


That is not an opinion. That is a fact. There are certain things that a good dub must do, certain criteria that must be filled, in order to count as a "good dub." At least in the case of relatively serious, story-driven series like DragonBall. Such a "good dub" must be able to present the same story, with the same atmosphere, with the same dialogue and presentation, in as close a manner as possible to the original... just in a different language. There will almost always be slight, necessary adjustments to make because of the language and culture differences, such as adjusting dialogue to match lip-flaps or adapting a very cultural-centric joke, reference, or other idiom. But these are excusable and hopefully few and far between.

Sadly, the FUNimation dub failed on most of these key elements. The dialogue script was terribly inaccurate, barely getting the same basic plot points across. The very names of characters and their abilities were changed. The actual dubbing was full of inappropriate voices and performed amateurishly. The musical score was outright replaced in a blatant and intentional effort to "sell" the series to hyperactive children.

Yes, the first problem may have been mostly due to receiving bad translations. Yes, the second one may have been mostly due to a lack of resources and small staff. Yes, the final one may have been mostly due to... well, there's really no excuse for that one. Either way, regardless of whether the problems are anyone's "fault," the simple fact of the nature of the end result remains. All in all, these elements hurt the intended presentation of the original product, and this dub falls drastically short where it counts. Thus it can only be categorized as a "bad dub."

When seeking to produce a "good dub," change for the mere sake of change is bad. That's all it comes down to. There's a certain amount of change that's usually necessary in order to make it a quality product. But when done to the point that it causes discrepancies in character and story, then it's a flaw, and a serious one at that.

Now dub fans, take note. Nowhere in there did I insult you for liking it. Nowhere did I insist that you are "not allowed" to enjoy it, nor are wrong for doing so. Nowhere in there did I take snide potshots at you or anyone else involved in "your side" of the fandom. All I did was state some facts, for the sake of information and hopefully rectifying some confusion.

If anyone on this board does actually insult you for liking it, or try to tell you that you're not allowed to like it, or anything of the sort that actually makes it about you in such a manner, then let me know. I may not like the dub, but I'll take my responsibilities as a mod seriously and ensure that you're allowed to express how you do.

Now, and this is the part that seems to fail to get through sometimes, there is a difference between liking something despite it being bad... and denying that it is bad. That is where a lot of the conflict seems to stem from. Nobody here should have any problem with you liking the dub. But when they merely point out that it is flawed, you shouldn't be letting yourself be in denial and trying to protest that statement as if it's untrue, nor taking it personally as if you are under attack or criticism.

So, long-story-short: It's a bad dub, because things are changed when and where they shouldn't be. You are totally allowed to like it in spite of this, and nobody can tell you that you can't. But don't try to pretend that it fits the definition of a "good dub."