Why all the hate for Cell and Buu Sagas?

[Gaffer Tape]

and Vegeta constantly doing stupid things.

And Trunks, and Krillin, and Piccolo, and Goku, and Gohan, and Yamcha, and Tenshinhan.... When Freeza landed on Earth, he apparently brought the stupid virus with him.

Haha, I'd be a liar if I didn't go ahead and give you that one.

[Perfect]

and Vegeta constantly doing stupid things.

And Trunks, and Krillin, and Piccolo, and Goku, and Gohan, and Yamcha, and Tenshinhan.... When Freeza landed on Earth, he apparently brought the stupid virus with him.

Haha, I'd be a liar if I didn't go ahead and give you that one.

I think Trunks was just born with brain damage is all.

[Godo]

All the characters did some very uncharacteristic stuff in the Cell and Buu Arcs.

Trunks, for one, one can't blame. He wasn't really trained in martial arts and since Gohan died, he was on his own with only limited battle experience against the Androids and Freeza, so he did stupid mistakes and didn't know much about the Super Saiya-jin transformations and battles overall.

Kuririn thought with his mini monk in his pants and did the stupid thing to destroy the remote to C18, and other than that, he didn't do anything wrong. And for a guy with his power, he couldn't have had the time to react to Dabra's spit.

Piccolo was stupid enough to be blinded by Cell's Solar Flare, but otherwise I can't think of anything stupid he made after that point, except getting hit by Dabra's spit and not ripping his shirt off or his head off.

Goku depended too much on Gohan, with his action being to make Cell literally kick the anger out of Gohan, instead of making him learn how to use it.
Then he didn't try to finish Fat Buu off either, giving the responsibility to two kids instead.
And he didn't even know how the SSJ3 worked either, using it when it was ineffective.

Gohan gave up training, even after the whole speech about him not being able to defeat any enemies. And then, when he becomes strong enough to in the Buu Arc, he lets Gotenks become absorbed.

Yamcha went out alone to search for the Androids, and got stabbed as a result. Then he was just in the way, and Gohan (?) had to take him away and heal him. Then he gave up training fully.

Tenshinhan had this very powerful Shin Kikoho and didn't use it on anyone else but 2nd form Cell, when he could have used it against the Androids too. And then he says goodbye, just to reappear and block Buu's blast and to be downed by a single kick.

Vegeta went from a calculative and sly enemy to a fully grown idiot who never thought one thing through and just ruined EVERYTHING for EVERYONE.

Kuririn: You can defeat Cell!
Vegeta: Yeah, but it's no fun when he is so weak! Let's make him transform so that he can kick my ass!

Gohan: I am going to defeat you once and for all, Cell!
Vegeta: In the midst of everything, my plans for revenge are top priority! Let's rush at Cell and make Gohan save me, like he did against Recoome, if I fail with my genious plan! Ok, here we go. LEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEEENKIIIINS!!
Gohan: What the fuck is he doing?! Goddammit Vegeta!
Vegeta: I am sorry, Gohan...

Goku: We have to stop Buu!
Vegeta: NO! My fight against you is top priority! I don't give a damn about the fate of the universe!
Goku: Ok, we'll fight.
Some time later.
Goku: Do you feel Buu's energy? I told you so.
Vegeta: Let me go in against him solo, and kill myself in the process!
Piccolo: You will go to hell anyways for screwing us over all these times.
Vegeta: Oh, fuck. Well, let's give this a try anyways. Worst case scenario, I'll die and Buu will survive. In that way I can do the most out of the situation.

Goku: We need to fuse!
Vegeta: No! You weren't fair! You disrespected my wish to fight fairly and to waste our time on our fight that was more important than stopping the release of Buu, something that I just recently regretted happened, but for some reason isn't important for me anymore!
Goku: Buu killed everyone you love and will kill you if you don't fuse with me, so basically your sacrifice didn't mean jack shit, and neither does the outcome of our fight. What's the big deal anyways? We aborted it, so no one really won nor lost!
Vegeta: Ok, then...is this the right ear?

Goku: We can become Vegetto again and kick Buu's ass if we get out of here!
Vegeta: I don't want to fuse with you again, so I'll crush the earring.
Goku: No! What will we do against Buu when we go outside?!
Buu: Hi.
Goku: Oh, crap! See what you did, Vegeta?

Vegeta: It finally makes sense. I cracked the case. I solved the code. I found the answer to the riddle. Kakarrot is good, since he doesn't want to be inferior to anyone, so he aims for the stars. I am bad, since I only aim for Kakarrot, and not higher than that. It's so simple! How could I have been so blind?!

[Rocketman]

Gohan: I am going to defeat you once and for all, Cell!
Vegeta: In the midst of everything, my plans for revenge are top priority!

This is the only one I will seriously dispute you on. Blindly attacking the guy who just murdered your son is a completely normal reaction.

[dbgtFO]

All the characters did some very uncharacteristic stuff in the Cell and Buu Arcs.
Vegeta went from a calculative and sly enemy to a fully grown idiot who never thought one thing through and just ruined EVERYTHING for EVERYONE.

Kuririn: You can defeat Cell!
Vegeta: Yeah, but it's no fun when he is so weak! Let's make him transform so that he can kick my ass!

What about Vegeta letting Freeza transform?? even though he was inferior to 1st form Freeza, and had already seen how big of a increase a transformation can give you(Zarbon), Vegeta has always been like that, don't try to deny it, he even stood there when Goku was preparing his Kaioken*3, I mean come on!!

[Innagadadavida]

Vegeta went from a calculative and sly enemy to a fully grown idiot who never thought one thing through and just ruined EVERYTHING for EVERYONE.

Kuririn: You can defeat Cell!
Vegeta: Yeah, but it's no fun when he is so weak! Let's make him transform so that he can kick my ass!

No that's not uncharacteristic. Vegeta has always had a thirst for battle, and he was cocky and confident that his new found strength would be enough to take on Cell. He didn't have the forethought to consider that he might lose because he just wanted that extra challenge.

Honestly, the sensibilities and actions of these characters may not fall in line with modern American culture, but they are not inconsistent. It's the actions of characters who want to become the strongest they can be, see their friends become as strong as they can be, and fuck all that gets in the way. Family, fashion, livelihood... these all come after a good battle.

[Cipher]

Okay, Vegeta in the Cell arc.

Let's make one thing clear. I love Vegeta on Namek; he's a fantastic character. I hate him in the Cell arc and mid-Buu arc; he's whiny and irritating and has no sense of strategy.

That said, I disagree with the common attitude that his character was needlessly altered. I think every part of his change in attitude makes sense. Let's walk through the whole thing.

On Earth and early Namek, we're introduced to an honor-less Vegeta who will do whatever it takes to survive and win. Stealing Dragon Balls, dodging Freeza, picking off weak foes, transforming into Oozaru to crush a single man, blind-siding Ghourd, teaming up with and betraying the Earthlings, etc. That's all good.

The first instance of his more bone-headed side comes up when he finally thinks he has the upper-hand in strength against Freeza, and he goads him to transform. I'm not seeing anything unreasonable yet; he and Goku have both become unfathomably strong over the course of the arc, the strongest their race has ever seen, and he thinks (reasonably) that he may be on the cusp of attaining a legendary power idolized since he was a child.

Of course, Freeza wrecks him, and subsequently wrecks Piccolo, and in the midst of Freeza's final transformation, Vegeta pulls out a bit of cunning again and has Krillin manipulate his Saiyan trait of near-death power-ups. Afterwords, we see unreasonably cocky Vegeta again because, come on, if he didn't achieve Super Saiyan earlier, surely he's done it this time, and he's finally got a shot at defeating the single greatest antagonist of his life.

And then he dies, seemingly coming to terms with his failure and finding relief in the fact that Goku might succeed. This is, to many fans, the end of Vegeta's proper development.

Now, hold on. Before we get to Vegeta's full-on, post-revival, cocky asshole stage, let's look at Goku in the Piccolo, Saiyan and Namek arcs. Goku is a full-on dick, and it only gets worse as the series progresses. He hands Piccolo, the all-powerful demon king, a senzu bean so that they can continue their rivalry. He tells Krillin to let Vegeta go just so they can fight again, which he speculates is because of his Saiyan fighting instinct (this applies to Vegeta's actions later). Finally, he goads Freeza into fully powering up so that he can have a true warrior's victory, without regrets. Upon returning to Earth, he agrees with Vegeta that they should avoid finding Gero's lab so that they can try their hand against the Androids, knowingly endangering thousands of innocents. So just remember that when Vegeta's sitting back letting Cell find #18, Goku was doing this kind of thing for three full story arcs. Presumable explanation: they're Saiyans. Alternate explanation: they're Saiyans and they're also kind of dicks, but at least Vegeta doesn't particularly stand out in this regard.

So that should go some way toward justifying Vegeta in the Cell arc. Another is the general lack of strategy that the Cell arc allows for. There are two goals in this arc: defeat the Androids by becoming stronger, and defeat Cell by becoming stronger. There are no armies to avoid, no Dragon Balls to hide, etc. The name of the game for every single character is power, and Vegeta's just playing along.

But by far the strongest additional rationale is that he's had the rug completely pulled out from under him. He was content to pass the torch to Goku when he was on death's doorstep. But revived? What possible purpose does he have in life when he came so close to achieving legend and watched his greatest rival get there first? Then Freeza comes to Earth, and Vegeta watches from a far as yet another anonymous fighter finishes the job. That's like Bruce Wayne watching someone else arrest his parents' killer. And then when he finally, finally catches up to them and achieves Super Saiyan, he finds out it's just not good enough anymore. What else can he do, with these rivals, in this power-driven situation, but devote himself to becoming stronger? And then letting Cell become complete? Well, that's just the same Saiyan dickery we've been watching Goku engage in since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

It's not like it lasts, either. We see by the Buu arc that he's well and settled down in seven years' time. Until you get to the whole Majin Vegeta thing, at least. But what can you expect? The man who turned his world upside down on Namek died, permanently shutting the book on Vegeta regaining his self-worth. He finds out he's coming back to Earth for one day and thinks, finally, I can redeem myself. It's not in an unfriendly way, either. Then their day of competition gets hijacked to stop some plot which, as far as he can see by the enemies they've been encountering and the Kaioshin's lack of foresight, shouldn't be a threat at all. And on top of all that, Goku may be stronger than previously imagined. So he conveniently uses Babidi's magic to 1) forcibly pull everyone's attention away from the seemingly worthless Kaioshin business and 2) give him more of a fighting chance against Goku. And he explains full well to Goku during their fight why he doesn't believe Buu will be a threat. The Kaioshin has been constantly surprised at how strong they are, and they've been blowing away warriors that terrify him like nothing. He says, outright, that his suspicions have been confirmed that they're the strongest people in existence; no reason to believe that Buu should be any different.

So, yeah. Vegeta after Namek isn't a particularly enjoyable character, but I don't believe for a second that his changes are unrealistic or ungrounded.

[Perfect]

I see his demeanor changing during Cell because he was in the position of power, unlike on Namek whereas Freeza was. Eventually he's tricked in battle, has his pride crushed and mocked, so overall things do seem to be in character. Vegeta's not a static character like Oolong or Puar.

[Ahiru77]

Vegeta went from a calculative and sly enemy to a fully grown idiot who never thought one thing through and just ruined EVERYTHING for EVERYONE.

Kuririn: You can defeat Cell!
Vegeta: Yeah, but it's no fun when he is so weak! Let's make him transform so that he can kick my ass!

THIS.

Vegeta is the definition of stupid.

The end.

[Cipher]

THIS.

Vegeta is the definition of stupid.

The end.

Goku pulls the same damn shit every single arc from Piccolo onward, with even less discernible motivation.

[Ahiru77]

THIS.

Vegeta is the definition of stupid.

The end.

Goku pulls the same damn shit every single arc from Piccolo onward, with even less discernible motivation.

That's right!!

But Goku has the luck of being "The Great Goku".....as in that every single mistake he makes gets course corrected somehow. And then he stands like....."Oh I knew that from the start". >_>





Also *pounds Perfect on the head"....no trolling allowed!!!

I think Trunks was just born with brain damage is all.

[jjgp1112]

*awesomeness snipped*

My God, I've been meaning to say this for years now.

[dbgtFO]

*awesomeness snipped*

My God, I've been meaning to say this for years now.

Yeah, I got to agree, what Cipher said really made Vegeta look like the deep character that he is(even though AT according to some hated the character and only kept him in because of fan demand).
Vegeta's stupidity, as Cipher said does not even come close to that of the only other full blooded saiyan(Kakarotto!!)

[Cipher]

That's right!!

But Goku has the luck of being "The Great Goku".....as in that every single mistake he makes gets course corrected somehow. And then he stands like....."Oh I knew that from the start". >_>

That's pretty much it. Vegeta only seems particularly stupid because the story doesn't magically play out in favor of his mistakes as it does with Goku.

Goku gives the demon king a senzu bean, and he ends up becoming good and defending the Earth.
Goku spares Vegeta, and he saves everyone's life on Namek.
Goku lets Freeza power up, and he fully crushes his ego and gets to learn wacky techniques in space afterward.
Goku lets Majin Buu go and ... well, honestly, this doesn't go so well, but he gets to come back in at the end of the arc for a full redemption.

Vegeta, on the other hand, lets Cell become complete and immediately gets his ass kicked.

And just to add to my discussion of post-Namek Vegeta, use this analogy. You've been training your entire life to get a black belt in karate. Just before you're finally so, so close, two nameless nobodies come in and get it like it's nothing. Then when you finally obtain it, after all that work, everyone comes in and says, "Black belt? Eh, that's not really so great anymore. We really need black belt 2 now." Hell, even Piccolo in the Cell arc comes right up to Vegeta and is all like, "Oh, you became a Super Saiyan? Yeah, I merged with Kami and did better than that like it ain't no thang." So you work your ass off and get your black belt 2 or whatever, only you find out that yours is frayed at the ends and your rival's nine-year-old son just made a perfect one out of nowhere. Then the school closes down, denying you a chance to ever catch up to them. And on the one day it re-opens years later, someone you've never met before starts stealing everyone's attention for his personal, over-dramaticized business. Can you help it if you just have to get up on a table and shout "Can we please get back to what we came here for?"

You'd be pretty angry too. It's like God just woke up one morning and decided it would be funny to mess with Vegeta. Considering that he's a personal friend of Goku, that's actually not unlikely.

In the end, Vegeta's character arc is the most soberingly realistic of the entire series. He doesn't get the typical shonen message of "Try hard and you can do anything." Instead, at the end of the Buu arc, his redemption is realizing that sometimes hard work's just not good enough, and that life isn't fair. The best bet is just to focus on being the best you can be and not comparing yourself to others. It's easy to see why he did spend so much time comparing himself to others though.

[Xyex]

It's like God just woke up one morning and decided it would be funny to mess with Vegeta. Considering that he's a personal friend of Goku, that's actually not unlikely.

Oh god. If I'd not already just changed my sig quote to its new awesomeness from Rachel, I'd put that down there. But both of them is too big. Oh well.

[cRookie_Monster]

Odd, I think I've heard the Cell arc praised as being the best arc more often than anything.

Frieza saga had way too much repetition. I'll never forget when one episode ended and they were like, "OK lets stop messing around, let's fight for real now!....Announcer goes, "uh oh, all powers unleashed, will our hero be able to match up?!" or something like that. Then NEXT episode, Frieza announces he's going to fight with no arms. WTF?? I cried all they way through those shows. Unlike most people I had to spend about 16 hours watching each show....so I wanted to throw something at the TV...

[Zephyr]

He hands Piccolo, the all-powerful demon king, a senzu bean so that they can continue their rivalry.

Didn't he also say he needed Piccolo to stay alive so Kami and the Dragonballs would as well? Or was that just a dub thing?

It's like God just woke up one morning and decided it would be funny to mess with Vegeta. Considering that he's a personal friend of Goku, that's actually not unlikely.

Oh god. If I'd not already just changed my sig quote to its new awesomeness from Rachel, I'd put that down there. But both of them is too big. Oh well.

Well in that case.....

[Kid Buu]

Goku gives the demon king a senzu bean, and he ends up becoming good and defending the Earth.
Goku spares Vegeta, and he saves everyone's life on Namek.
Goku lets Freeza power up, and he fully crushes his ego and gets to learn wacky techniques in space afterward.
Goku lets Majin Buu go and ... well, honestly, this doesn't go so well, but he gets to come back in at the end of the arc for a full redemption.

Actually there is one time where Goku did pay for sparing a villain. Letting go off Raditz's tail led to his own death.

[Gaffer Tape]

He hands Piccolo, the all-powerful demon king, a senzu bean so that they can continue their rivalry.

Didn't he also say he needed Piccolo to stay alive so Kami and the Dragonballs would as well? Or was that just a dub thing?

Nope, that's not a dub thing. That was in the original dialogue.

[Zephyr]

He hands Piccolo, the all-powerful demon king, a senzu bean so that they can continue their rivalry.

Didn't he also say he needed Piccolo to stay alive so Kami and the Dragonballs would as well? Or was that just a dub thing?

Nope, that's not a dub thing. That was in the original dialogue.

Thanks for the clarification. Then Goku's intentions were a little more pure than just "I'm gonna beat him up some more" in that case.